What's a safe minimum drive during winter to avoid excessive engine wear?

[ipetrov]

I know that cold weather starts and short trips tend to wear out the engine excessively due to unburned water condensation in the oil. I realize there's no simple answer to this question as there are hundreds of variables involved, so I'm just looking for a tried and tested rule of thumb.

I'm pretty sure prolonged idling even to the point of full operating temperature won't get rid of enough (if any) condensation and will do more harm than good. But how much driving will cover all the bases - a full drive cycle of warm-up, some spirited acceleration, some highway cruising? Or is a normal 20-30 min city drive in mostly 1st and 2nd gear enough?

And, lastly, could condensation or increased oil thickness be a significant contributing factor in slower cranking upon cold start-up in low temperatures (besides potential battery drainage issues)?

 

[Mamba52]

Why would you ever drive a Viper in the winter. I would be more concerned about your tires!!!!!!

 

[Nixon's SRT]

Not sure what you looking for in this question? If your car is parked for the winter, plug a battery tender in and leave it till spring. No need to start it if your not going to drive it. If you going to drive it, let it warm up for a few mins, or till car gets to normal temp and then drive it like normal.

 

[Steve M]

Minimum safe distance to go to not be considered a short drive? Until the oil is up to full operating temperature in my book.

As for the slow cranking, the cold's effect on the battery probably plays the biggest factor, followed by thicker oil.

 

[speedracervr4]

Where are you located? I would suggest driving it for at least 20 minutes or so. Just because the car is at operating temp doesn't mean the oil is as well. I have an oil temp gauge in my SRT 10 Ram that tells me when the oil is up to temp and it's normally there around 10-15 minutes of driving in colder weather.

 

[ipetrov]

Unfortunately I live in downtown Chicago and the best I could find for the winter was a two-level private indoor heated parking with no easy access to a power outlet to plug a battery tender in. Even though it's a heated garage, it seems that the battery is draining a lot faster than usual. I try to drive around in the garage and outside once a week (as I typically do in the summer) to keep the charge in the battery as much as possible - I just thought that's preferable to letting the battery die.

If, however, in that process I'm inflicting any kind of excessive engine wear (e.g. by not getting to highway speeds) I'd rather just let the damn battery die, or figure out a way to charge it up periodically.

Urban living and a Viper just don't mix well (and I'm not willing to give up either one). Ironically, the same garage is full of exotics and I see no power cords hooked up to any of them, ha!

Not sure what you looking for in this question? If your car is parked for the winter, plug a battery tender in and leave it till spring. No need to start it if your not going to drive it. If you going to drive it, let it warm up for a few mins, or till car gets to normal temp and then drive it like normal.

 

[Nixon's SRT]

I would pull the battery out and take it inside if you don't have a power source and don't need to drive the car

 

[Steve M]

Are you using the battery save feature to store it?

 

[ipetrov]

As I posted above, I live in the city and unfortunately it's one of the most salt-abusing ones when snow starts hitting. I feel that they'd cover every street in salt by general priciple even if there is not a single snow fall the entire winter. I try to stay away from salt as much as possible, so I try to mostly lap the garage in the very late hours (feeling like an idiot), with multiple brief accelerations (e.g. 5-35 mph), and total driving of at least 15 minutes. Car gets fully hot and stays so for a good amount of time, but obviously sees no highway speeds.

Where are you located? I would suggest driving it for at least 20 minutes or so. Just because the car is at operating temp doesn't mean the oil is as well. I have an oil temp gauge in my SRT 10 Ram that tells me when the oil is up to temp and it's normally there around 10-15 minutes of driving in colder weather.

 

[ipetrov]

Unfortunately that would disable the alarm (and I need to possibly lower the windows), which I'd rather not do. It's a private parking lot in the city's most expensive neighborhood with cameras, 24 hr security and at least $2 million worth of supercars but still accessible to anyone who decides to use the back door and just walk in freely.

Are you using the battery save feature to store it?

 

[ipetrov]

I would pull the battery out and take it inside if you don't have a power source and don't need to drive the car

Thanks for the advice and willingness to help! Only worry would be losing the alarm feature. I might just try to find an alternate private garage in a suburb with an access to a power line.

 

[Steve M]

Finding a better storage solution would be how I'd try to fix the issue.

If you choose to just let the battery die, then pull the battery and put it on a Battery Tender inside...not many car thieves carry a spare battery around with them. Or maybe they do...I'm not in the car stealing business, so I can't say for sure. If someone puts it on a flat bed to steal it, it won't matter if you had a battery in there with the security system armed anyway.

If you choose to drive it, the bare minimum distance should be until the oil is at full operating temp.

 

[ipetrov]

Thanks for all your helpful advice, Steve! I realize it's an unusual situation that maybe less than 5% of Viper owners face, and that's why I tried to leave the pesky details out of the first post. Didn't take long for the smart folks on this forum to figure out that it's a somewhat illogical question to begin with

Finding a better storage solution would be how I'd try to fix the issue.

If you choose to just let the battery die, then pull the battery and put it on a Battery Tender inside...not many car thieves carry a spare battery around with them. Or maybe they do...I'm not in the car stealing business, so I can't say for sure. If someone puts it on a flat bed to steal it, it won't matter if you had a battery in there with the security system armed anyway.

If you choose to drive it, the bare minimum distance should be until the oil is at full operating temp.

 

[speedracervr4]

I would not just let the battery die, it significanly lowers the life span once it gets very low. Unless of course you plan on changing it out in the Spring anyway.

 

[ipetrov]

Upon some further reflection, I think the VCA needs a new forum section - "Viper and the City"

 

[ipetrov]

I plan on getting a DieHard Platinum series 34 pronto, as I know it'd tremendously help the cold start up slowness. But I hate the idea of letting it sit and degrade like my current one.

You gave me a good idea, though. I will never start the car again until spring, but will figure out a way to periodically charge up the battery to preserve the alarm function. That might be the most efficient and least expensive way to deal with it. Come spring time, I'll just hook the car up to a brand new DieHard.

Solves the engine wear problem. Solves the salty roads problem. Saves gas money and some dignity (of not having to idiotically lap a garage). Thanks!

I would not just let the battery die, it significanly lowers the life span once it gets very low. Unless of course you plan on changing it out in the Spring anyway.

 

[rukcus]

Last winter, I stored mine at my cottage in Peterborough where it gets plenty cold. When it was time to take her out I changed the oil on the spot because I had not changed the oil before I put it into storage and it was well used oil. Fresh gas and a new battery and I drove it 2 1/2 hours home immediately. Bottom line is it doesn't need much special treatment.

If you want to preserve your battery, tenders is what is needed. If you cannot do that depending on how good the battery is, how cold your environment is, and finally if you have any accessories that will add to your current draw then you can make your conclusion. I would say once every 2 weeks and until your engine gets to operating temp.

 

[ipetrov]

Thanks, rukcus. Encouraging to know. As a paranoid believer in overkill, I always try to go beyond the bare minimum any chance I have. For example, when rain washes the salt away I go for a solid 1 hr drive and get through at least 4th gear. Then, grudgingly, spend an hour washing off whatever salt vestiges clung to the car.

I'm worried about the few times I had to confine my driving to the garage and the underpasses around it, and acceleration blips to maybe 50 mph tops. In all cases at least a solid 10 mins of engine operation beyond the point when 190+ F oil/water temp was reached per the dashboard gauges. Common sense says that's enough condensation burn off, but paranoia begs to differ, go figure :/

Last winter, I stored mine at my cottage in Peterborough where it gets plenty cold. When it was time to take her out I changed the oil on the spot because I had not changed the oil before I put it into storage and it was well used oil. Fresh gas and a new battery and I drove it 2 1/2 hours home immediately. Bottom line is it doesn't need much special treatment.

If you want to preserve your battery, tenders is what is needed. If you cannot do that depending on how good the battery is, how cold your environment is, and finally if you have any accessories that will add to your current draw then you can make your conclusion. I would say once every 2 weeks and until your engine gets to operating temp.

 

[HobokenViper]

I had posted a similar thread not even 1.5 months ago as I too live in the urban town of Hoboken just across the Hudson River from New York City and keep my cars in my building's parking garage. There are a lot of exotics in my garage as well (including a silver Mercedes McLaren SLR parked next to my car that never moves) and there isn't a single power outlet available to use. I was scratching my head as to how the hell people do it, and I came on here and got some great advice that has since saved my car battery:

1. Put your car in the battery save mode. While it will disable the car alarm, the car also remains locked and the battery is effectively cut off from all the car's systems as if you hit a cut off swith to the car's power entirely, and unless a car thief has your car's key and can figure out where the key hole is hidden under the door and also can figure out how to shut off the battery save feature with the key, your car is probably safer sitting like that than if it had the alarm set. Do this!!!

2. Buy a new Die Hard Platinum 34 Series battery for the car. I replaced the battery in my 2008 as it was seemingly starting to go bad and was losing cranking power in just 2 weeks. The new battery is powerful and awesome!

3. Buy a Die Hard Platinum battery backup power supply and car jumpstarter. You will never worry again if your car is dead as this thing works like a charm, but if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, you should never have to use this amazing invention unless you need a backup power source for a couple days if you have a major power outage.

4. Dont drive the car in the winter like you have been. I don't think it is good for the car, and you are probably discharging the battery more than you are charging it every time you fire her up and drive loops around your parking garage. Your neighbors will stop thinking you are a crazy person too wen you stop doing this. Haha! Funny, I had the same thought before I learned about steps 1 & 2, but it never got to the point of doing laps around the garage for me thankfully.

The solutions are really simple, and the battery save feature will hold your battery's charge for 3 or 4 months if not longer, especially if your garage is kept decently warm. Hope this was helpful!

 

[ipetrov]

HobokenViper,

That's incredibly helpful, thank you very much for chiming in! I am very familiar with your nice 3-page thread on battery woes, just never realized you were in the exact same situation as me. Except that my car has never failed to start on a first try, just started getting progressively more sluggish.

Just got back from the garage for a quick check of my oil - it looks crystal clear (at least on the dipstick) and is full, so hopefully no mechanical harm done by my prior winter "wake up" drives. Paid close attention to every single one of the exotics in the garage, couple of Phantoms, a Drophead, a few Murci's, couple of Gallardos, Porsches, Lotuses, a fellow Viper - none have battery tenders hooked up. It's either that they are all in some sort of safe/sleep mode (other than my friend's Viper which seems to be holding well in full alarm mode), or the garage is actually heated enough that temperature drain is not a problem, and for some reason my car's battery is probably singing it's last song (sulfation, age, etc.).

Either way, I don't want to drive the car this winter season any more and your suggestions all make sense, except for a point made in a post I read somewhere that windows need to be lowered in safe mode (can't recall the reason cited). I'll try to find that reference. If true, I'm not sure I'll have enough peace of mind knowing that my car's sitting in a publicly accessible garage a quarter mile away from me with a disabled alarm and windows cracked open.

But thanks again for an extremely helpful and informative post. I think I'll end up heeding your advice pending some more research into the window issue.

I had posted a similar thread not even 1.5 months ago as I too live in the urban town of Hoboken just across the Hudson River from New York City and keep my cars in my building's parking garage. There are a lot of exotics in my garage as well (including a silver Mercedes McLaren SLR parked next to my car that never moves) and there isn't a single power outlet available to use. I was scratching my head as to how the hell people do it, and I came on here and got some great advice that has since saved my car battery:

1. Put your car in the battery save mode. While it will disable the car alarm, the car also remains locked and the battery is effectively cut off from all the car's systems as if you hit a cut off swith to the car's power entirely, and unless a car thief has your car's key and can figure out where the key hole is hidden under the door and also can figure out how to shut off the battery save feature with the key, your car is probably safer sitting like that than if it had the alarm set. Do this!!!

2. Buy a new Die Hard Platinum 34 Series battery for the car. I replaced the battery in my 2008 as it was seemingly starting to go bad and was losing cranking power in just 2 weeks. The new battery is powerful and awesome!

3. Buy a Die Hard Platinum battery backup power supply and car jumpstarter. You will never worry again if your car is dead as this thing works like a charm, but if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, you should never have to use this amazing invention unless you need a backup power source for a couple days if you have a major power outage.

4. Dont drive the car in the winter like you have been. I don't think it is good for the car, and you are probably discharging the battery more than you are charging it every time you fire her up and drive loops around your parking garage. Your neighbors will stop thinking you are a crazy person too wen you stop doing this. Haha! Funny, I had the same thought before I learned about steps 1 & 2, but it never got to the point of doing laps around the garage for me thankfully.

The solutions are really simple, and the battery save feature will hold your battery's charge for 3 or 4 months if not longer, especially if your garage is kept decently warm. Hope this was helpful!

 

[agdetail]

i drove my car in the winter during last year on clear cold days. coldest was a -10 degree temp at 7am but -2 by lunch. when i start it up i let it idle for a min while i sort things out and then drive it under 3k rpm until the motor temp is normal. oil was changed in oct and then in feb when i reached 2000km i changed it again and no metal shavings or any sign of gunk or engine wear. just dont rev it up when its cold and you should be good. i seen loads of viper with over 100000 miles so the engine is very strong.

also read somewhere that if you do let your viper sit, turn the rear tires once a week to keep the top part of the diff from corroding

 

[ipetrov]

Thanks! Some more real world experiences testifying against my paranoia.

I read an interesting article on engine oils. Here is a relevant quote:

"In addition, another part of cold weather driving that is extremely tough on an oil is condensation. Because it is so cold, it takes a fairly long drive to get the engine warm enough to burn off the condensation that occurs inside the engine. As a result, vehicles routinely driven short distances in cold weather will build up condensation within the oil. If left to do its dirty work, this water would cause acids to build up within the oil and corrosion would begin within your engine."

The article goes on to say that thanks to the virtues of synthetic oils, this problem is largely contained: http://www.autoeducation.com/autoshop101/oil-change-2.htm

I need to get into the habit of examining my oil as probably the best tell-tale sign of what's going on inside the engine.

i drove my car in the winter during last year on clear cold days. coldest was a -10 degree temp at 7am but -2 by lunch. when i start it up i let it idle for a min while i sort things out and then drive it under 3k rpm until the motor temp is normal. oil was changed in oct and then in feb when i reached 2000km i changed it again and no metal shavings or any sign of gunk or engine wear. just dont rev it up when its cold and you should be good. i seen loads of viper with over 100000 miles so the engine is very strong.

also read somewhere that if you do let your viper sit, turn the rear tires once a week to keep the top part of the diff from corroding

 

[swexlin]

I too am in a similar situation.My car stays in an unheated garage, and a cannot keep a tender on it. I just keep it in battery save mode. If the roads are clear and dry (which they havent been around here), I DO drive it (VERY carefully) maybe a 10-20 mile roundtrip. The PS2s are hard as rocks, but drive like grandma, and you'll be OK.

That being said, it's been almost a month since my car has been out. Maybe this weekend, lol!!

 

[HobokenViper]

I too am in a similar situation.My car stays in an unheated garage, and a cannot keep a tender on it. I just keep it in battery save mode. If the roads are clear and dry (which they havent been around here), I DO drive it (VERY carefully) maybe a 10-20 mile roundtrip. The PS2s are hard as rocks, but drive like grandma, and you'll be OK.

That being said, it's been almost a month since my car has been out. Maybe this weekend, lol!!

Do you leave your windows cracked open as mentioned by ipetrov above when in battery save mode? I followed the instructions in the manual and it never said anywhere to keep the windows open when in battery save mode. will I have a problem when I try to open the car up after it's been sitting for a couple months like that? I can't imagine I would since I will be manually opening the car with the key, no? What's your experience with this?

 

[Steve-Indy]

HobokenViper, our 03 is stored in "save mode"...and, EVERY time is want to drive it I have to use the key to enter it. Keep that keyhole lubricated !!

 

[swexlin]

Do you leave your windows cracked open as mentioned by ipetrov above when in battery save mode? I followed the instructions in the manual and it never said anywhere to keep the windows open when in battery save mode. will I have a problem when I try to open the car up after it's been sitting for a couple months like that? I can't imagine I would since I will be manually opening the car with the key, no? What's your experience with this?

Nope, never an issue. I use the key (carefully) and it opens right up. I'm hoping to take a brief drive this weekend!

Hey, it's a car folks. These things are not as fragile as everyone thinks!!

 

[swexlin]

I had posted a similar thread not even 1.5 months ago as I too live in the urban town of Hoboken just across the Hudson River from New York City and keep my cars in my building's parking garage. There are a lot of exotics in my garage as well (including a silver Mercedes McLaren SLR parked next to my car that never moves) and there isn't a single power outlet available to use. I was scratching my head as to how the hell people do it, and I came on here and got some great advice that has since saved my car battery:

1. Put your car in the battery save mode. While it will disable the car alarm, the car also remains locked and the battery is effectively cut off from all the car's systems as if you hit a cut off swith to the car's power entirely, and unless a car thief has your car's key and can figure out where the key hole is hidden under the door and also can figure out how to shut off the battery save feature with the key, your car is probably safer sitting like that than if it had the alarm set. Do this!!!

2. Buy a new Die Hard Platinum 34 Series battery for the car. I replaced the battery in my 2008 as it was seemingly starting to go bad and was losing cranking power in just 2 weeks. The new battery is powerful and awesome!

3. Buy a Die Hard Platinum battery backup power supply and car jumpstarter. You will never worry again if your car is dead as this thing works like a charm, but if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, you should never have to use this amazing invention unless you need a backup power source for a couple days if you have a major power outage.

4. Dont drive the car in the winter like you have been. I don't think it is good for the car, and you are probably discharging the battery more than you are charging it every time you fire her up and drive loops around your parking garage. Your neighbors will stop thinking you are a crazy person too wen you stop doing this. Haha! Funny, I had the same thought before I learned about steps 1 & 2, but it never got to the point of doing laps around the garage for me thankfully.

The solutions are really simple, and the battery save feature will hold your battery's charge for 3 or 4 months if not longer, especially if your garage is kept decently warm. Hope this was helpful!

THis is an EXCELLENT post! I also bought the Sears Diehard 2 years ago. Great battery.

 

[ipetrov]

OK, I did some research and couldn't find the post about lowering windows in save mode that was etched into my memory... Anyways, I guess my question is: without access to battery power in save mode, how does the smart glass work when you try to open the door manually? Wouldn't there be interference between the glass and the weather stripping? Or does putting the car in save mode automatically lower the windows a tad, enough to just bypass the weather stripping?

Do you leave your windows cracked open as mentioned by ipetrov above when in battery save mode? I followed the instructions in the manual and it never said anywhere to keep the windows open when in battery save mode. will I have a problem when I try to open the car up after it's been sitting for a couple months like that? I can't imagine I would since I will be manually opening the car with the key, no? What's your experience with this?

 

[swexlin]

OK, I did some research and couldn't find the post about lowering windows in save mode that was etched into my memory... Anyways, I guess my question is: without access to battery power in save mode, how does the smart glass work when you try to open the door manually? Wouldn't there be interference between the glass and the weather stripping? Or does putting the car in save mode automatically lower the windows a tad, enough to just bypass the weather stripping?

It works, at least mine does. Been doing this for 2 winters now (and summer as well, as I use save mode all the time). Never an issue.

 

[webby]

Ivan I think you're being paranoid about the salt. Just use my method - I drove 50 miles yesterday or whenever it's sunny and most salt is gone. Then wash immediately after. It seems like this wouldn't be much worse than the minimal amount of salt you pick up from driving around the garage (that other cars left) right?