ACR 7.22 at the Ring.
- Thread starter vipeuup
- Start date
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
Run what you brung! It was production to production car
Even the head engineer said the ZR-1 is maxed out....only a half second more...
"Talking to Corvette ZR1 engineer Jim Mero during our first drive of the car at GM's proving grounds, we asked him about his record-setting lap of the Nürburgring. He told us if you inspect the video, you can see he probably could have shaved at least half a second off the 7:26.4 lap time if he had just taken a few of the turns better. "
Jim Mero: Corvette ZR1 Could Set Even Faster Nürburgring Lap
I am dying to get one!
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Even the head engineer said the ZR-1 is maxed out....only a half second more...
"Talking to Corvette ZR1 engineer Jim Mero during our first drive of the car at GM's proving grounds, we asked him about his record-setting lap of the Nürburgring. He told us if you inspect the video, you can see he probably could have shaved at least half a second off the 7:26.4 lap time if he had just taken a few of the turns better. "
Jim Mero: Corvette ZR1 Could Set Even Faster Nürburgring Lap
I am dying to get one!
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jamie furman
Enthusiast
sounds like an excuse to me.
Man you guys are right what was I thinking? My ACR is probably going to be the fastest car ever built in the world! I am sure every track I take it to it will set a new track record and leave everything else in its dust. Hopefully every viper owner will be happy and claim their viper is the fastest car ever built, because hell if one does it, they all must be that fast! I don't know what the hell I was thinking trying to be objective? Chevy's **** and I would rather walk than ride in one! Hell that goes for all makes and models! Mopar or no car! As a matter of fact I am going to put all my cars in the paper tommorow except my Hemicuda and my Hemi Dart and I am going to take all my extra money from the sales to buy a classic reliant and a dodge mini van and restore them. I think I am even going to email all the rags and tell them to quit wasting their time and money testing anything but vipers because everything else is slow and no comparison in any catagory and no one with a brain could care less about the other junk anyways because we all know the Viper is the King! Man guys thanks again for your objectivity and vast knowledge, because if not for it I might have never seen the light!
black08
Viper Owner
Now you're making more sense.
Warfang
Enthusiast
yawn... ur sarcasm escapes you
cyaford
Enthusiast
Was the driver's seat they used an option for the ACR, or was it the factory seat? They made it sound like it was some aftermarket racing seat. Hopefully they were confused because the car had a 5-point harness. Otherwise, it was not production to production.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Uh oh. Sounds like Jamie got tired of hearing positive Viper talk in a Viper thread on the Viper board.
Hang on. I'll try to find a link to 2003 when the SRT came out. That'll make you feel better.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Was the driver's seat they used an option for the ACR, or was it the factory seat? They made it sound like it was some aftermarket racing seat. Hopefully they were confused because the car had a 5-point harness. Otherwise, it was not production to production.
Fair enough. GM can say "Yeah, but the Viper cheated. It had a racing seat and 5-points."
Fine with me.
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Well, we didn't want to unintentionally insult our competition in public, so here is a sanitized version. Enjoy!
[media]http://www.viperclub.org/downloads/ACR_1.wmv[/media]
If you don't see the video above, you can also download it by right clicking and "Save Link As" here:
http://www.viperclub.org/downloads/ACR_1.wmv
Enjoy!
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
It was done for safety purposes to accommodate 5 points. The driver was actually offered a full roll cage and declined. The passenger seat and everything else stock was in the car the entire time. I wonder what the Vette had? Surely they weren't flying around with a stock seat and standard seat belt. Otherwise much of the view would have been from the passenger side.
Kevan
Enthusiast
Ironically, the "fastest car ever built" (production) was a Corvette.
Not so funny now, is it?
black08
Viper Owner
That is a great video...thanks very much...thoroughly enjoyed it!
cyaford
Enthusiast
It was done for safety purposes to accommodate 5 points. The driver was actually offered a full roll cage and declined. The passenger seat and everything else stock was in the car the entire time. I wonder what the Vette had?
Any way to find out if the ZR1 was also using a more "driver friendly" seat? I'm sure it would be easier to pilot a car if you are not sliding all around in the seat.
GTSRboy2000
Enthusiast
GO VIPER!!!
Alexarz
Enthusiast
Good God! Just when I was thinking "*** Wee" Furman was waking out of his pro-vette hysteria, here he is raving like the old "*** Wee". As the owner of a vette that would own any of "*** Wee's" vettes, I can tell you that, the corvette was and never will be the equal of a Dodge Viper. The Viper is simply more focused on performance and is more ********. It always was and forever will be. I don't go back and forth over these two cars because one is clearly well beyond the other. Furman, on the other hand, damn near has a convulsion when the Viper sentiment at this forum exceeds his tolerance level. The corvette is what it is; an american performance car with an eye on the masses. It is not as commited to performance as the Viper is and is not of the same quality, either. if I can come to peace with these facts, shouldn't Mr. Furman?
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No, you won't be the fastest in the world. But you can rest easy now knowing the you WILL be faster than any stock ZR-1 you encounter on the track. Why is that so hard to grasp?
HI-NOS-Viper
Enthusiast
Denial at its best. Cmon you can do so much better, take your Z06 and make a better run on that track.
jamie furman
Enthusiast
Troll or should I say poser, I would of thought you would of learned to keep your opinions to yourself especially after that beat down just about every member of this board gave you on your comments on the ACR thread earlier in the week and continuous criticism of just about anything that will help you start an argument. When you bring your weak game in a thread, try reading all the posts before you start flapping those ignorant lips. This is my first post in the thread you might of missed! (Well a professional driver can mean a lot more than 4 seconds against a engineer as in the ZR1 video the driver actually lets off down the staight at about 177 mph far before the brake zone. Buts thats 2 bad for them you run what you brung and it looks like the ACR was the better package today. I also think if the viper had better different gearing it would of been much more dominant as the gearing currently doesn't seem to agree with the rings configuration and to me looks like it hurt the ACR's time, the ZR1 video the vettes gearing seem to be a perfect match for the course.) Like I have told you before I have raced with or against many guys on this board and I speak from experience not brand loyalty and not hero worship from others accomplishments and magazine racing. Unlike yourself and a few other members on the board I don't just get all giddy and drool all over a couple of good runs and claim superiority based on one event. I prefer to look at it like a prize fight with round 1 going to the ACR and if the ACR continues to win every or most rounds it has against the ZR1 it should be crowned champ, if it doesn't then it shouldn't. Also unlike yourself I appreciate and enjoy more than one brand of automobile and realize the Viper and the Vette are not the only cars out there but just 2 of many, many great cars so when I see a contest that I can relate to as I have just bought an ACR (Did you buy an ACR?) it interests me but at the same time I try to be objective and not fool myself in to believing this one match up is the be all end all of all contests just because I happen to own the winner. I realized when I replied earlier in this thread objectivity was not appreciated by many participants in this thread so I tried to lighten up the atmosphere a little when you must of been trolling and felt the need to jump in.
I am sure you are aware that I have never responded to a post by you until you first jumped in with an opinion on my posts , I try to never post in threads that alexarz posts in first, because as most of the other people on this board know about you, posers such as yourself are usually just looking for an argument and really don't have anything intelligent to add to the conversation and I don't have time for it. Thats why I didn't pile on with the other members when they gave you that last beat down on the ACR thread. So unless you want to pull out one of your cars and race me somewhere or actually have something intelligent to say which I highly doubt, don't reference me! (I know you don't want to race me because your scared and you probably haven't got your car back from the Livin the Low Life set on Speedvision but if you want to, tell me where and when!)
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bluestreak
Enthusiast
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Jamie, I'll give you respect from a future ACR owner perspective, but there is no reason to think the ZR-1 can match the ZCR. And it's not as simple as a change of tires because you cant put equal tires on the ZR-1 without switching wheels, which is too much.
IMO GM has left their fans too much explaining to do by putting tires on their cars that arent up to par with the competition, so all that follows is excuses. Look at all the other 100k + sports cars, many coming with MPSC now, and GM is just getting to PS2's which is pathetic.
But prior to now the Vette could still beat everyone with that, but the game has changed. The ZR-1 will beat most all, but not cars that are just as fast and have better tires. We could talk what if's all day, but the fact is that as they come from the showroom, the ZR-1 will get beat with equal drivers.
I personally think a wheel and tire change will make it a nail biter, but still when you pay 100k for a corvette, you shouldnt have to say "well if I do this, then....."
IMO GM has left their fans too much explaining to do by putting tires on their cars that arent up to par with the competition, so all that follows is excuses. Look at all the other 100k + sports cars, many coming with MPSC now, and GM is just getting to PS2's which is pathetic.
But prior to now the Vette could still beat everyone with that, but the game has changed. The ZR-1 will beat most all, but not cars that are just as fast and have better tires. We could talk what if's all day, but the fact is that as they come from the showroom, the ZR-1 will get beat with equal drivers.
I personally think a wheel and tire change will make it a nail biter, but still when you pay 100k for a corvette, you shouldnt have to say "well if I do this, then....."
If we are going to give the ZR1 better tires, then we should be able to get those trick carbon fiber brakes for the ACR.
AZTVR
Enthusiast
This certainly is an amusing thread. In my view the argument boils down to: "The business plan of my company is better than the business plan of their company." I'm an engineer in a manufacturing company. All it takes is to give the engineers the time and money and decide what your market is. Both cars are the best at what they were designed and produced to do. Arguing which is the fastest in one individual situation seems ridiculous and irrelevant.
It comes down to " No, you're a numb-nuts. No you are. Well you're another one !! Well they started it"
How old are you folks ?
snakeplissken
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I agree. The ACR Smokes the ZR1.
SnakeBitten
Enthusiast
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I understand where Jamie is coming from on some points but there is one inescapable fact. The ZR1 had the benefit of factory support, was fully tuned for the Ring, and had a great driver even if he isnt a racer like the Dutchman in the Viper. Anyone that can do 7:26 in a ZR1 on the Ring is pro capable imho. To put the effort of Mero down because he is an engineer is stupid to me. ZR1 was tuned for this track not the ACR.
ACR didnt even have the full compliment of downforce if I read correctly and was obviously nowhere near as optimized for the Ring as the ZR1 is. One look at both videos speaks volumes. ZR1 better gearing, faster top speed, better suspension tune[no bottoming out etc] months of fine tuning and lapping versus the ACR with 3 days prep and 4 laps only from a non factory effort. Also poor gearing for the Ring, comparatively half assed suspension tweaking and it still clobbered the ZR1's time by 4 secs. Even Mero said the ZR1 only had about a half second of improvement left in it. It doesnt matter if it was on different days but I know where you are coming from with the variables etc. It would be impossible to have both factorys do Ring laps same day, same time etc. This just sound like an excuse to me.
There is no excuse to be made. There is so much room for improvement in that ACR run its scary to comprehend what this car would do if optimally setup for the Ring like the ZR1. BTW those runflats aint ordinary runflats on the ZR1. I read the grip is astonishing and has special compounds so its no ordinary runflat. Stock to stock ACR wins. Any changes you want to give the ZR1 you would have to give the ACR to remain a fair comparison and you know that spells doom for the ZR1. Only ricers mod there favorite car and leave the other stock and claim victory. You strike me as a fair minded guy in past posts so this surprises me. my 2c
ACR didnt even have the full compliment of downforce if I read correctly and was obviously nowhere near as optimized for the Ring as the ZR1 is. One look at both videos speaks volumes. ZR1 better gearing, faster top speed, better suspension tune[no bottoming out etc] months of fine tuning and lapping versus the ACR with 3 days prep and 4 laps only from a non factory effort. Also poor gearing for the Ring, comparatively half assed suspension tweaking and it still clobbered the ZR1's time by 4 secs. Even Mero said the ZR1 only had about a half second of improvement left in it. It doesnt matter if it was on different days but I know where you are coming from with the variables etc. It would be impossible to have both factorys do Ring laps same day, same time etc. This just sound like an excuse to me.
There is no excuse to be made. There is so much room for improvement in that ACR run its scary to comprehend what this car would do if optimally setup for the Ring like the ZR1. BTW those runflats aint ordinary runflats on the ZR1. I read the grip is astonishing and has special compounds so its no ordinary runflat. Stock to stock ACR wins. Any changes you want to give the ZR1 you would have to give the ACR to remain a fair comparison and you know that spells doom for the ZR1. Only ricers mod there favorite car and leave the other stock and claim victory. You strike me as a fair minded guy in past posts so this surprises me. my 2c
HI-NOS-Viper
Enthusiast
The fact of the matter is each company chose what components to use, tires, wheels, suspesion, etc. I know it has been brought up before but apparently some people just dont get it. Each company produced a car from the factory. Each company took their "factory" car to the track and both cars did an astonoshing run. The ACR beat out the ZR1, and is faster than the ZR1 on the course PERIOD. You cannot say well if the ZR1 had this or that, etc. All of that doest mean $H1*. They run what the brung.
It just amazes me what some of the other boards are saying how if the ZR1 or the GT-R had this or that, etc, it could beat it. People just dont understand.
It just amazes me what some of the other boards are saying how if the ZR1 or the GT-R had this or that, etc, it could beat it. People just dont understand.
jamie furman
Enthusiast
Snake I never said with tires the ZR1 was faster I just said I think the cars are pretty evenly matched and with same rubber and driver I thought the results would be different. Thats what I think, that doesn't make it true but it doesn't make it false either. Its ok to have an opinion isn't it? If you read further you will find I had an opinion on the ACR I posted in my first response on this thread as well, not a fact just what I think.
I get the feeling if your opinion isn't the same as everyone else it makes some people mad and I guess thats too bad. I do think I am a fair guy and if I thought it was a bad ass kicken I would agree with some of the guys going beserk over a 4 second win on a 7.5 minute course. I don't think it was a ass kicken I thought it was close especially for a course that long and thats all I said. I am not asking anyone to agree! On an average american tracks like watkins glen or fontana or summit point that take less than 2 minutes to go around it would be around a second difference at most which is not much so thats why I feel the cars are very close.
Who is making excuses? Don't mistake an opinion for an excuse. Did you miss this part of my very first post: (As far as the ZR1 thats 2 bad for them you run what you brung and it looks like the ACR was the better package today. I also think if the viper had different gearing it would of been much more dominant as the gearing currently doesn't seem to agree with the rings configuration and to me looks like it hurt the ACR's time, in the ZR1 video the vettes gearing seem to be perfect for the course.)
Did you miss that post? Why would I make an excuse for a car I don't own or didn't race? I just made an observation and to me the cars seem close with actually a lot of room for improvement for both IMO. I am not asking anyone to agree with me as I just have an opinion as does everyone else, but some others still get all bent out of shape and act like you said something about their mom if you don't agree with every single point they are trying to make. I thought these were discussion boards and most of the time discussion requires input from 2 different perspectives, I didn't realize it had to be a viper love fest or I wouldn't of gave an opinion. I don't see why there has to be all the vette bashing or even personal name calling by some jerkoffs? From what I read all the people bashing don't even have an ACR! How many of the bashers actually road race and know what they are talking about when they make inferences to how much advantage tires or drivers or brakes give said car? None? Maybe some of the guys bashing do, I don't know but I doubt it? Then of course everyone knows exactly what the factory did or didn't do to each car, like everyone posting here was sent a personal bulletin from the viper and vette engineers and track guys how each car was prepared prior to running (GET REAL!) Its always been my experience people that actually race their cars usually respect the competition and don't talk smack and if anything savor the chance to experience the other car as well, I know I definately do! Like I said maybe you don't agree with me and think the ACR is unbeatable and thats your opinion, that would be nice but I don't believe it! I have been racing for a long time and I know every dog has his day and there is always someone faster, so I don't talk smack I show up at the track and find out first hand, some of you guys ought to get it out and try it yourself its more fun than talking smack on the discussion boards.
Both cars basically have identical amazing performance stats.As in almost every form of motorsports it usually all comes down to the driver. To truely proclaim one superior over the other (just like in drag racing )we have to have both cars prepped the same, on the same day, at the same track, with the same driver or at least drivers of the same ability.
As an illustration of the above take our Gen 2 Vipers for example .Every major mag tested the car and the best they could do was 12.2 at 116 .Evan Smith tested the car cool day at Englishtown for Mopar Perf Mag (very fast track that was very well prepped ) and ran 11.7 at 121 .Half a secomd faster in only a quarter mile.Smith or Jamie Furman in a Gen2 could miss a gear and run 12.2.If the drivers at the Ring were not of the same ability along with the weather ect the results are definately convoluted
Kevan
Enthusiast
0.0000000000000001 sec. faster = "ass kicking".
Just ask Milorad Cavic.
He got his "ass kicked".
NEITHER performance (Phelps nor ACR) demonstrates a "throttling" or "a full-on Southern smackdown" or "whooped like a red-headed step-child with braces".
But they both show ass kicking.
I think that the videos show what both cars will do with a nice wide open track and good drivers during decent weather.
What the videos DON'T show is what the cars *can* do given optimal conditions, big-buck factory/race support, full car and track prep, vast selection of professional drivers with tons of seat time in both rides, multiple laps during multiple days, etc.
I'd buy tickets to that event.
rcl4668
Enthusiast
I certainly don't want to fan the flames here in the stock versus stock debate. I think it simplifies things if you think of it in these terms: Here are x dollars, walk into a production car showroom and order or pick up the car that is delivered to the dealership. Using this, and only this car, you can make whatever adjustments to the car that the stock car and components will allow. So for example, both drivers could make tire pressure adjustments to their hearts content. Likewise, both drivers could tweak their cars using its stock systems to get what they believe will extract the maximum performance of the vehicle.
So for example, the 2009 GT-R driver could call up the multiple digital displays in his cockpit to adjust the car. The 2008 BMW M3 driver could call up the M-mode on his car and use iDrive to adjust the various damper settings etc. The 2009 Corvette ZR-1 driver could use the switch in his car to set the magnetic damping system to its most firm, aggressive setting. And yes, because Dodge sells the ACR with the capability to do multiple aero and damping adjustments, it is fair for that driver to make those adjustments.
Once you get into the "well, one car would have done better if it had these tires or this upgrade," that is the slippery slope to a fairly meaningless debate. Sure car A is slower but if strapped a GE turbine engine to the trunk it would go faster than car B. I guess that sort of debate is fun in terms of fantasy but comparing stock to stock has always made more sense, at least to me.
/Rich
So for example, the 2009 GT-R driver could call up the multiple digital displays in his cockpit to adjust the car. The 2008 BMW M3 driver could call up the M-mode on his car and use iDrive to adjust the various damper settings etc. The 2009 Corvette ZR-1 driver could use the switch in his car to set the magnetic damping system to its most firm, aggressive setting. And yes, because Dodge sells the ACR with the capability to do multiple aero and damping adjustments, it is fair for that driver to make those adjustments.
Once you get into the "well, one car would have done better if it had these tires or this upgrade," that is the slippery slope to a fairly meaningless debate. Sure car A is slower but if strapped a GE turbine engine to the trunk it would go faster than car B. I guess that sort of debate is fun in terms of fantasy but comparing stock to stock has always made more sense, at least to me.
/Rich
