Survey - TVS blower for SRT-10 Vipers

[mnc2886]

Edit.... I guess I should add for those that don't realize, is that torque=cylinder pressure=stress. A motors 'stress' load at say 8psi at 2000 rpm is WAY higher than one that makes 8 psi at 6000 rpm.

Please explain. This doesn't make sense. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just not following.

 

[FLATOUT]

Thanks for getting involved with this Tony. Colo man be patient lol

 

[Toma]

Please explain. This doesn't make sense. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just not following.

You are right, it doesn't make sense. Trying to keep it simple, I hastily equated boost with torque and ignored VE....

....because the ideal boost curve would actually look like an inverse of the VE curve, least at peak na VE, and looking like a "smile". Since we cant do that with crank driven blowers, a rising rate of boost is the next best thing, running the highest "safe" boost at what would have been peak NA VE, and then rising from there.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[Darbgnik]

You are right, it doesn't make sense. Trying to keep it simple, I hastily equated boost with torque and ignored VE....

....because the ideal boost curve would actually look like an inverse of the VE curve, least at peak na VE, and looking like a "smile". Since we cant do that with crank driven blowers, a rising rate of boost is the next best thing, running the highest "safe" boost at what would have been peak NA VE, and then rising from there.

Hope that clears it up.

Cleared it right up.

 

[Coloviper]

Wow Alberta speak! Clear as mud. Must be directly from the text books of the College of Engineering at the U of A. Being a U of S Engineering grad from Saskatoon myself, I can now totally see why the U of A won so many Spectrum awards.

Bottomline is positive displacement and screw type blowers are where you want to be. There is a reason you do not see centrifugals on the NHRA stock either. A 5psi screw blower on a stock GEN III motor is going to work just fine with absolutely no concerns or issues with safety or reliability. Now someone needs to just build it and soon. I am surprised with the talk over the years and the need for this that our newly formed VPA is not trying to work with someone to make it happen and sell the kits through the VPA? Theres a thought!

 

[Toma]

Wow Alberta speak! Clear as mud. Must be directly from the text books of the College of Engineering at the U of A. Being a U of S Engineering grad from Saskatoon myself, I can now totally see why the U of A won so many Spectrum awards.

Bottomline is positive displacement and screw type blowers are where you want to be. There is a reason you do not see centrifugals on the NHRA stock either. A 5psi screw blower on a stock GEN III motor is going to work just fine with absolutely no concerns or issues with safety or reliability. Now someone needs to just build it and soon. I am surprised with the talk over the years and the need for this that our newly formed VPA is not trying to work with someone to make it happen and sell the kits through the VPA? Theres a thought!

What happened to Roe?

did they stop selling their supercharger kits?

ps... what is "nhra stock"?

 

[TowDawg]

ROE couldn't get it to get it to fit under the Gen III hood is the main reason I heard it died.

 

[Toma]

ROE couldn't get it to get it to fit under the Gen III hood is the main reason I heard it died.

I've seen the kits installed and in person. they do in fact fit.

the gen 3 kit they also enlarged the blower to a 2.8 (which is a screw blower btw). Arguably, the screw design is still better than a TVS (which is basically a modernized roots blower).

 

[FLATOUT]

Just get it to fit under a gen IV hood and your set. Most gen III owners already have the hood installed already.

 

[Coloviper]

Toma;

By NHRA Stock I just mean group of cars, not a racing division or series or anything.

If you have pictures and detailed info on a GEN III positive displacement or screw-type kit, please pass it along as other than Paxton, there are NO other GEN III kits for the Viper car. There is a Roe kit for the Viper truck (which has a GEN III motor) but it does not fit and work on the cars due to size limitations.

ROE is not providing a kit and not looking to provide a kit. Sean's only offering for the GEN III is some kind of a Twin Turbo set-up. I am not interested in that. I held out hope for a long time but it was just not to be. I even offered to buy the prototype kit but the purchase details never came.

My preference for a kit would be the big Whipple kit (W510AX good up to 8.3L motor support), with the Charger that has intercooler channels built right into the blower housing. That seem to be the way to go. It is definitely big enough to support the 8.3L Viper motor. Only problem is on making it fit even under a GEN III or even a GEN IV hood.

Last time I talked with Whipple they were toying with the idea of reversing the blower so the traditional back was in front so it could be directly feed air from the front (straight from the stock air filter assembly) and then the blower's drive assembly would be like a Magnusson where there is a long rod running to the back so the blower drive asembly is run from the back of the engine bay. Then for placement and height issue resolve, they were toying with flipping the blower upside down and feeding the the cylinders from runners from the top down to the cylinders which would help tremendously on the height issues. This type of design is already being used but companies like SMS, etc. As the blower cooling fins with be in the block channel, it needs cooling and intercooling. Whipple now makes internal intercooler channels in some of the blower housings and that would need to be incorporated into the W510AX.

In the end, it sounds pretty simple and common sense, but then again who would have thought of turning a blower front to back, then rotating it upside down to get it to work. Ingenious! They were also saying something about Cryo cooling the gas line to help control heat soak in the blower, but I did not understand what they were referring to.

I know in my heart it can work and my eyeball engineering says it will to. Unfortunately my contact is not there anymore do to his career advancement so I need to start over with someone else. Maybe someone else wnts to carry this through as my time with my career has left me with little extra time these days.

 

[Coloviper]

BTW The dimensions on the W510AX are:

Height: 8.5"
Width: 11.7"
Length: Total (22" made up of 18.6" for the blower assembly and an extra 3.4" for the drive assembly, less front blower pulley)

These dimensions can be checked for fitment, however you still have to add height to the overall blower assembly for the individual cylinder runners from the top of the blower to the cylinders as well as you can not completely set the blower in very bottom the cavity due to width issues on the blower assembly. There is also the situation of where to now run the fuel injectors, where would you choose to mount the coil packs, etc.

The kit requires a lot of working out to come up with a good and complete bolt on assembly package. You guys who told me to be patient are correct, it takes a lot of work and time, but the GEN III is anywhere from 6 to 8 years old. They have had more than enough time thus far. If we sit back and wait for them to green light it, then it will simply never happen. That was my point.

 

[Toma]

Toma;

By NHRA Stock I just mean group of cars, not a racing division or series or anything.

Well, I don't know what you mean, but pretty well any class blowers are allowed, a roots type gets OWNED by the turbos, Screws or centrifugals where they are allowed.

I tune several cars that compete on the West Coast series PSCA, mainly Extreme Drag Radial cars, and there is not a roots blower car to be found.... NOT ONE.

In fact, at the Street Car Supernationals in Vegas last November, Extreme Drag Radial, Outlaw, Limited Street, Pro Street.... I don't recall seeing one single roots blower. I think in Pro, two guys ran Screws though. But the classes were dominated by turbos, nitrous or centrifugals.

 

[Coloviper]

Not to perpetuate an argument or this pointless discussion but how many Top Fuel Dragsters and other Nitro funny cars or others in the big boy category run a Turbo or Centrifugal, etc. I can't think of a single car because there are none.

Whether we are talking about screw or roots or whatever, I am referring to positive displacement blowers versus centrifugals. Everyone has their preference. I have both on some of my vehicles and can tell you despite the top line performance of a centrifugal at the very high RPMs, I zero desire to live with a centrifugal daily on the street. The PD just puts more power to where you use it on a daily basis, unless you do the kiddy thing and rev your car to redline in every gear down the road. I grew up from that years ago. In fact I never did that, except at the 1/4 mile strip.

Bottomline is Positive Displacement blowers are like adding cubic inches right from the first rev and that I like in my Vipers. But to each their own. It is just a different power. I have twin turbos in our Cayennes and to me, they are very disappointing. Turbos all have lag and well lag just *****. I like instant power which only comes from a positive displacement blower.

I would still like to see this mystery kit on the GEN IIIs you are talking about. I think it would be of interest to all on this board. Please provide some details and pictures.

 

[Toma]

Not to perpetuate an argument or this pointless discussion but how many Top Fuel Dragsters and other Nitro funny cars or others in the big boy category run a Turbo or Centrifugal, etc. I can't think of a single car because there are none.

Cause they are not legal in that class.

As for the rest of your argument, again, you are getting subjective versus staying objective.

Objectively, your blower of choice for driving "feel", is not the power adder of choice for going fast in any class that uses gasoline, or where other power adders are allowed.

And as for the Roe gen 3 kit.... not sure why they got rid of it (if they did), but it was out there.

Here is Seans post from 2004 http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-s...dyno-sheet-gen3-supercharger-kit-testing.html

here is their FAQ page, and they claim it fits under the stock hood. Roe Racing: FAQ

And, I did see two such cars, but maybe they were prototypes, I dunno.

I am not a "Only Viper" guy so I have not followed the market to the letter.

 

[Toma]

Sean's psot from 2008 http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-s...-10-roe-racing-supercharger-kit-revealed.html

You must be registered for see images

 

[Coloviper]

That news is so old. The kit was NEVER out there. The prototype kit came, then maybe a production, waiting and waiting, then gone already forever. It is not being produced, nor is he selling the prototype, nor is he working on a future kit. Done kapute finished! Two years of my life waiting and phone discussions, etc. on that potential kit.

I have no interest in continuing a discussion that is not going anywhere. I am well aware of what a centrifugal does compared to a positive displacement blower, the pluses and minuses of both. Right now, I own all three huffers you are talking about. We can just agree to disagree then.

I still want to see this GEN III kit you brought up. Then again, I think I have a better chance of seeing a unicorn. Chances are you saw a GEN II kit which is out there.

 

[Coloviper]

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!

 

[DMan]

I was very interested in a blower, from 04 til this year. Now, it's just been too long. My memory could easily be wrong, sorry if it is, but I remember that Sean got it under the hood OK. Then something happened, he moved, or a vendor thing, and it was no longer "economically viable" to continue/go to production.

Now, my thoughts are on the GenV, if I like it, then my next move will be to that. If I don't then It'll by a nice 08-10 car and I'd be very interested in a pos disp blower option for that. But now, for my Gen3, I've lost interested this yr as I see a change on the horizon for me one way or other. Just my thoughts. But I'm not optimisitc, if we haven't been able to get a pos disp blower option for a 4 yr model run, it won't be easier for a 3 yr model run, I would think.

 

[Bad Asp 06]

Is this still an on-going issue? I would be very interested in purchasing a kit if it is and the price is fair. Though I would not put a deposit down until I've seen one installed first because of two reasons.
1) I'll never buy an upgrade part sight unseen and untested. Too many if's.

2) Call me funny but if it doesn't look beautiful under the hood then I'll go with out it. You could tell me a dog **** would give 1000 horse power gain but I would never put it on my car.

 

[Coloviper]

Huh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUMP!

 

[TowDawg]

After seeing the graphs of the ROE vs a Paxton, unless this new on can bump up the power, the Paxton is actually looking better than I thought.

 

[ssjcreeper]

The Paxton makes great numbers but IMO the screw blower is more enjoyable in the "cruising" rpm range (sub 3,500). Have to admit I was disappointed with the power of the SRT after selling my blown vette. Would ideally like to add a screw blower to the SRT, but I'm thinking a set of 3.55's or 3.73's will wake this thing up... and tide me over until I decide whether or not to go with the Paxton.

 

[Nine Ball]

After seeing the graphs of the ROE vs a Paxton, unless this new on can bump up the power, the Paxton is actually looking better than I thought.

Don't fall into the peak HP comparisons game. My Z06 makes 100 rwhp less than my Paxton Viper does, but the Z06 with the Maggie on it has zero problem putting 2.5 car lengths on the Viper from a 60-130 roll. It is all about area under the HP curve, the highest average HP in the racing powerband. Not peak HP numbers.

I'm currently building a 2011 Camaro SS convertible for the MagnaCharger booth for all 7 cities of the Hotrod Power Tour. I'll have a full week, come the first week of June, to hang with the Magna guys and discuss this system in detail with them.

Tony

 

[Toma]

Don't fall into the peak HP comparisons game. My Z06 makes 100 rwhp less than my Paxton Viper does, but the Z06 with the Maggie on it has zero problem putting 2.5 car lengths on the Viper from a 60-130 roll. It is all about area under the HP curve, the highest average HP in the racing powerband. Not peak HP numbers.

Tony

Same dyno? What gearing does the vette have, and what does your viper have? Did you try and pull it from 3000 rpm, or did you downshift and pull it from 4500+ ?

What's your Viper weigh? Vettes are usually ligher by 300 pounds.

 

[fqberful]

The Paxton makes great numbers but IMO the screw blower is more enjoyable in the "cruising" rpm range (sub 3,500). Have to admit I was disappointed with the power of the SRT after selling my blown vette. Would ideally like to add a screw blower to the SRT, but I'm thinking a set of 3.55's or 3.73's will wake this thing up... and tide me over until I decide whether or not to go with the Paxton.

Going the gears route is a lot of bang for the $$$. I went with 3.55's and never looked back. Put a Quaife in at the same time, huge difference.

I never liked FI much, you can make some really big HP and TQ numbers NA. A nice set of Greg Good or Stryker heads and a cam, good exhaust, etc. And the reliability is better too.

--FQB

 

[AbsolutHank]

I'll have a full week, come the first week of June, to hang with the Magna guys and discuss this system in detail with them.

Tony

Awesome! Hope good news comes from it

 

[TowDawg]

I agree that the peak numbers don't mean much except for bench racing. It's just that the power curve (especially tq) were not near in the favor of the ROE than I expected to see. It made a little more power under 3k, but not much. Then after 3k, the Paxton started to run away with it.
I was honestly expecting the ROE style to blow the Paxton out of the water in hp and tq curves until close to 5k. That wasn't the case at all though. I know there's different dynos on different days and cars etc, but unless TVS can put out a graph that betters the Paxton by good bit until late in the revs and then only gets beat slightly up top, the Paxton is beginning to look like a decent option.
I'm just saying the graphs I looked at weren't near as favorable to the ROE as I thought they'd be.

 

[Toma]

I agree that the peak numbers don't mean much except for bench racing. It's just that the power curve (especially tq) were not near in the favor of the ROE than I expected to see. It made a little more power under 3k, but not much. Then after 3k, the Paxton started to run away with it.
I was honestly expecting the ROE style to blow the Paxton out of the water in hp and tq curves until close to 5k. That wasn't the case at all though. I know there's different dynos on different days and cars etc, but unless TVS can put out a graph that betters the Paxton by good bit until late in the revs and then only gets beat slightly up top, the Paxton is beginning to look like a decent option.
I'm just saying the graphs I looked at weren't near as favorable to the ROE as I thought they'd be.

This is what I was getting at.

For instance, stock gearing on my car, I powershift at 6400, as I recall*** rpm drops to ~4800 in the next gear. Average power from 4800 to 6400 is gonna win the race, and in my mind, no way a TVS or screw is gonna equal a centrifugal or turbo in this range.

If you wanna tighten up the spread, put some gears in it, then recovery drop will never be much below 5000....

 

[evomind]

Don't fall into the peak HP comparisons game. My Z06 makes 100 rwhp less than my Paxton Viper does, but the Z06 with the Maggie on it has zero problem putting 2.5 car lengths on the Viper from a 60-130 roll. It is all about area under the HP curve, the highest average HP in the racing powerband. Not peak HP numbers.

I'm currently building a 2011 Camaro SS convertible for the MagnaCharger booth for all 7 cities of the Hotrod Power Tour. I'll have a full week, come the first week of June, to hang with the Magna guys and discuss this system in detail with them.

Tony

that has to do with the z's 7k redline and gearing, not lower peak hp.

 

[Coloviper]

I highly doubt the % of rpms spent above 3,500 even compares to the % of rpms spent below 3,500. That is the point for most on here seeking the positive displacement blower option.

Again no amount of curves or this or that with a centrifugal option is going to convince me they are the better way to go on my Viper for how I drive it.

Hopefully your discussions are fruitful, otherwise that leaves me with the only option available which is to eat that damn crow, call Woodhouse and put the damn Paxton on with only a partially happy feeling. I really, really do not want to go that route, but I am really bored with the Viper power levels now. I have done the gears and the this and that. Then again being at 6,250 ft is not helping the power situation either.