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Discussion in 'Gen IV' started by Richie7, Aug 21, 2008.
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Had a buddy of mine just pick up a Boss 302 and guess what the first thing he bought was? That's right. An SCT tuner.
A car guy getting to tweak his car. How nice...
I agree with you 100%.....wanting to hear an answer to your question from SRT.
08 Viper coupe
That is such a bull**** answer. And YES you did hold out on the tuning, you know it we know it and ALL oems do it.
You guys actually hurt your own sales when doing stuff like locking out ecm's.
It's called HOT RODDING. Americans like to do that and if you lock them out with no aftermarket support then they will go buy a ford or a Chevy
Dodge does some of the goofiest stuff. And before you think I'm just bagging on you, I own an SRT RAM, SRT challenger, 2000 viper gts, and an 08 viper, and several others.
Dodge makes the aftermarket pull their collective hair out over dumb **** like this.
This is just business as usual with a spin doctor answer from SRT.
There are some aftermarket PCM's that can handle the GEN IV ....unfortunately they cost $5000-$14000. Motec will run you $14k and the new Infinity AEM will cost around 5k
There are a few TT Gen IV's out there...RSI...etc,etc
You see that SRT, we are passionate about our cars and what you have done is simply not acceptable. This is not my first viper or dodge but my 2008 viper will be the last SRT or dodge product I will ever purchase because of the frustrations I am having with this computer. I know, I may be only be one person and that you might not care, but I am 34 years old and I've already have owned over 8 new vehicles 4 of which were Dodges. Good day!
The AEM is not out yet for the gen 4 and there are no RUNNING gen4s out there!! Show me one please! Also the new AEM is not a proven system, it will take time and trials to see where and how it ends up working for the gen 4s. Also, there's only a hand full of people I would trust with the tuning of the gen 4 car which makes it incredibly cost prohibitive!!
Hot Rodding still available on Vipers, but not through computers. Old school still rules with intake and exhaust mods till very effective.
Most of the people I know want to modify the computer to increase performance, but always want to be able to change it back when they need warranty work. Think Dodge is on to them.
Word on the street is that SRT is considering making adjustments possible, but they will most likely need to void the warranty if if is done. (off road use...)
The big problem is that any addition of forced induction, head work, or cam change is going to need a tune, and since the computer is locked, the cost of these mods goes through the roof.
Personally speaking, Dodge/SRT just lost a sale about a month ago because the new challengers can't be tuned. Instead my wife is now rocking a Cadillac CTS-V... Simple pulley swap and tune is an easy 80hp for well under $1000.
Underground did an ACR when they first came out back in 08. No idea where that car is now. Not an AEM but I think a Motec.
No one changes the tune on a stock car, so it's a bs excuse on their end. It's really hard to take headers, heads, cams off and on a car to go in for warranty work. They can easily track if someone had a non stock tune with software if they were really concerned about it. Let us enjoy our cars the way we choose, if it voids the warranty so be it! Let that be OUR choice!
You're right it had a Motec to the tune of 15K! Um, Yeah, no thanks.
I believe UR, Hennessy, and RSI have done TT GEN IV
How different is the encryption on the Gen IV computer compared to the 2011+ Hemis? I only ask because Diablo claims to have cracked the 2011+ encryption, allowing for third party tuning on those platforms.
[HR][/HR]Maybe Dodge should offer the tune for a price. Many aftermarket sellers had this going on. I think there were about 3 different tunes for the Gen 3 you could get loaded. This way Dodge knows who and what you have done and the warranty then becomes there option.
Not sure what you mean...? All tunes for Gen-3 are written by the respective tuner, nothing is "canned" nor shared between tuners- there are thousands of different Gen-2/3 tune files out there. There is no way that Dodge would get into this, they are not aftermarket tuners, and have no support network that could ever hope to implement such a thing correctly. A few files to choose from is not nearly enough to accomplish anything, every package design and install is different.
Well I am sure your correct for the 04 and below but I was thinking later years where nobody can touch the information. I had a tune done (safe tune) air fuel adj and a few other things got a few more hp, but it did run much smoother. Nothing to write home about.
I am still not following you- we have complete and total access to all tuning parameters on ALL 1996-2006 Viper PCM's, they are effectively basic "stand-alone" controllers when factoring in access. The Gen-4's are a different story, but that is 2008+ [Gen-4] and not what you were talking about. Can you explain a bit more what you mean, or what someone told you...?
Mopar Performance did have a controller for the Gen 3 that complimented a MP cam and exhaust package. They also had numerous Competition Coupe calibrations that were loaded for differing tracks and altitudes. These were only available to the race teams.
Nice! They can do all that, yet they continue to $hit on the gen 4 owners! Once again thanks dodge, I mean srt
They could do that because they were race cars and the data they received helped everyone, they also had no warranty claims generated by a race team. SRT is great and improving the breed daily and using that information gathered for our benefit. This is also done for the ACRX series owners so they are still improving each time out, but SRT does the swapping on them not the owners.
Diablo cracked nothing without some inside help and as far as I can tell they will offer canned tunes developed with help from Arrow and Arrington not open source type tuning for them, but the internet chatter says different so we will see.
Keep in mind that the ecu used on the GEN4 Vipers is a completely different animal than the NGC controllers used on other Chrysler vehicles. It was designed in collaboration with Zytek , Motorola and Continental Automotive Systems in parallel with the GEN4 engine development, which is also a first. Chrysler, and likley most manufactures, typically develop new engine controllers with existing engine packages, and vice versa. It is also the only corporate engine controller (not counting the current Fiat models) I know of that use mass air flow meter(s). All corporate Chrysler engine controllers were speed density up until the VENOM controller, LOGIC MODULE, SMEC, FCC, SBEC I, II , III, IIIA, IIIB, JTEC, JTEC+, NGC 1, 2, 3, 4, 4+, etc . I've looked inside these controllers, and the hardware is completely different, if you look at the pin-outs, they are different as well. The only similarity, is that they look like a NGC controller and share the same connector.
My suggestion is to make your voice heard to companies like HP Tuners, Diablosport, etc, who have the resources to develop a calibration tool for these ecus by emailing them directly or posting on their forums.
Great info vprtech. Many of us gen 4 owners have tried to reach out to companies like SCT but all we get is "we are working on it". It's pretty obvious that without the help of dodge/srt that nothing will ever materialize for us gen 4 and now gen 5 guys. Heck, I even started a petition to dodge/srt to unlock the venom controller or provide us with tuning capabilities that went on deaf ears. I guess the silence is deafening!
This is what DiabloSport had to say:
It's just not a good business case for any of these guys...the very thing that makes the Viper rare keeps the aftermarket from wanting to invest money in it.
I talked to Diablosport at SEMA and their attitude was they cannot justify using engineers for a project like this because it's a small market. I did mention that many of us have bought the Mopar controller for around $1200.00 and I felt that Diablosport would not have any issue getting $2000.00 for a controller that actually did something. He looked at me and said "Really?".....these guys are stuck in the market of $500.00 contollers and that mindset. And if you think they have dozens of engineers at their disposal, I don't think any of these programming companies are as big as they look in the magazine ads.
A leading Aussie company that deals in variable cam cars and tuning them told me the Venom controller is a whole other level of processor (actually two years ago they felt it was the most powerful processor in the automotive world). Without SRT stepping in with help, this isn't going to happen in the aftermarket unless you go to a completely separate system like Motec or Pectel.
Right now, I'd settle for SRT reprogramming my Mopar controller for actual throttle response.
Here's an idea...maybe SRT can release the codes to the aftermarket but make it so it will only work if the car is running the Mopar controller?? That way SRT makes some money on the deal and the aftermarket controller can only be used with an Off Road only PCM.
Coming from the LS1 world, I used HPTuners, and I know that company was only a handful of really smart guys, so I'm not surprised that these other companies aren't all that big either. I have a feeling it would take someone at one of these companies that actually owned a Gen IV Viper to have the passion to really work on something like this.
I do like the idea of only being able to tune the Mopar computer, but I have a feeling that SRT is keeping a lid on all of these controllers due to not wanting to lose their intellectual property...they invested a significant amount of resources in these computers, and they don't want people messing with them. Understandable, but it sucks for guys that enjoy modding.
Great background and homework! Unfortunately the bolded part is the part that worries me. The older systems were likely released into the wild because Chrysler could, since they owned all the intellectual property associated with the firmware.
With so many other manufacturers helping to develop the Gen IV controller and technology, there may a huge hurdle of getting all of the players to sign off on the code. Of course, it just takes one of them to say 'no' and controller stays encrypted. Just like any piece of software there could be many proprietary techniques and licenses which prevent the controller software from getting put out there.
It might be more promising for people to put up a bounty for third parties to claim so they can see that Gen IV owners are serious about getting tuneable engine controllers. Cash talks BS walks. If enough people are going to pre-purchase one at $2k each, then someone will step up and try and claim the bounty.
You'd never guess by the throttle lag.
I think you guys may be giving up too easy. Certainly Chrysler will never openly release information on the Venom controller or any controller for that matter, as that acknowledgment would bring down upon them the EPA, CARB, and possibly their own internal warranty administration etc, etc. Beating up or criticizing Chrysler because they don't hand over tuning capabilities is not going to help. Looking from their side of the fence, and if you understand what they have to go through to calibrate an engine package and meet all the durability, drivability, cost, and emissions standards, I think they look at the aftermarket tuners as calibration terrorists, and many probably deserve that label. From my standpoint as a tuner, I like to think I'm tailoring the calibration to accommodate whatever mechanical modifications have been made to an engine.
People do reverse engineer, or hack ecu's without being handed out information. If you can read out the code and calibration data from the ecu, identify I/O ram locations, and are capable with a disassembler such as IDA, you can figure out how things work and where tables are and what they do. Its a tedious process, but it's what many tuning software companies do. As far as the ecu having some sort of advanced processor, it has a Freescale MPC5554, which is a Power PC processor, similar to what Ford and other car companies are using, so I don't really think that's too big a deal.
If Diablosport and SCT are not interested, why not try others, some of the companies I can think of that would be capable of reverse engineering the VENOM would be:
I know that one of the owners of HP Tuners owns a Viper, and is regularly on this forum, might want to hit him up.