2003 bone stock dyno results

[ulllose]

I'm about to start doing a few mods so i figured i would get a few baseline numbers.

Car extremely hot air temp around 75 and humid.
First pull 425.9 and 466 tq
second pull 427 and 468 tq
third pull 430 and 468 tq
let the car cool down for about 20 minutes with 2 fans and the car pulled......

446 and 496 tq that will show you what heat will do.....
Car was running very rich but thats to be expected.
These was uncorrected numbers. When we corrected the numbers the 446 horse turned into 438 and the 496 tq was lower but i don't remember what it was.

when i saw the 425 first pull i was alittle shocked i must have the lowest dynoing 03 viper DC made...lol

May do dynoing after each mod so i will keep posting as i go.

 

[valentine_viper]

Solid numbers, right where they should be.

Good luck with the mods and keep us posted on the results.

 

[FinalEd357]

good luck, what are your plans for the mods?

 

[ulllose]

Nothing major.

Corsa track exhaust going on Monday, car is just 2 damn quiet for me. I have been debating on changing this for the past year. I was not dead set on the corsa but i picked up a demo model for about a 1/3 of the cost of a new one so i couldn't pass up the deal.
Need some tuning so i'm checking my options.
No other performance mods right now I have his wheel hop issue i have to get rid of no matter what it costs, i may start with some urathane bushings and see how this works. If not I will go with a aftermarket suspension.

 

[Racer Robbie]

Those numbers are right on for a stock car. I would look at other systems becides Corsa. The Corsa runs realy hot and turns blue. Take a look at our Atro Exhaust as it can be tunes to make a ton of noise if that is what you are looking for. We can even modify the Corsa system to run our mufflers which sound like a formula one car. If our system does not interest you I would look into the Borla/Mopar system as it can be used with or without the crossover pipes. If you take a look at our web site below you will see some ideas on how to make power and keep the heat down at the same time.
Robbie

http://www.members.aol.com/AtroRacingTeam/PRODUCTS/AtRoRacingsProductCatalog

 

[Nader]

Not sure why you continually bash the Corsa track exhaust. I have had mine on for 6months now and extremely satified. No discoloring, did away with all the cabin and sill heat, and sounds great. No discoloring either.

 

[Racer Robbie]

Ask yelloh and dagger about their Corsa systems. Everyone which has come into our shop was deep blue from overheating and the customer was complaining of getting burnt to death. If you do not believe me call Zero Altitude and ask them about the sill plates that they manufacture and have had to replace on account of the corsa's excessive heat. I have seen then myself and they were all warped from the heat. The corsa is a good system if you wrap it so as to keep the heat inside the exhaust. When you wrap it there have been no problems. We have sold over 50 of out heat reduction kits, most to people who have installed corsa systems. I do have to say that this problem is showing up more on the corsa system that retains the crossover and not the systems that are true sidepipes.
Robbie

 

[Kenny]

Hey Robbie, if you are wrapping the exhaust downstream of the cats, you are going to prematurely burn out the substrate in the cat. But I guess you already knew that Mr. ASE.

What are you going to do when people whose Corsas you wrapped start coming to you with burned out cats after Corsa and RT start telling them they shouldn't have wrapped their systems and thats why the cats burned out.

Exhaust wrapping should only be used where there is no cat.

 

[ROGUE]

Hey Robbie, if you are wrapping the exhaust downstream of the cats, you are going to prematurely burn out the substrate in the cat. But I guess you already knew that Mr. ASE.

What are you going to do when people whose Corsas you wrapped start coming to you with burned out cats after Corsa and RT start telling them they shouldn't have wrapped their systems and thats why the cats burned out.

Exhaust wrapping should only be used where there is no cat.

To expand on that further, exahust wrap is generally very ******* the exahust in general. When not driving it can retain quite a bit of moisture, which (even when using stainless) is rather ******* the tubing. If you're really concerned about heat get the whole thing ceramic coated.


But as to the corsas turning blue, THATS WHAT STAINLESS DOES! It's entirely due to the head going THROUGH the exhaust which heats the tube. ANY stainless exhaust (especially when wrapped) will turn blue over time. The color of the tube is NO INDICATION as to how much heat was being transfered to other pieces.



I still want to hear your explination of how a 2 1/2" exhaust will make more power than a 3" on a 500ci 500hp motor.

 

[Racer Robbie]

Without a doubt ceramic coating is a great way to cut down on the heat issue. No where did I say, "that I can find, that a 2-1/2" exhaust will make more power tahn a 3" on a 500ci 500hp motor."
for the record the following companies offer a 2-1/2" exhaust system so I guess they do not know what they are doing according to you.

1 CORSA 2-1/2" TRACK EXHAUST PT NUMBER 14176 FOR STOCK CATS.

2 CORSA 2-1/2" SOUNDSCAPE EXHAUST PT NUMBER 14175 FOR STOCK CATS.

3 YES CORSA MAKES A 3" TRACK EXHAUST, PART NUMBERB14174, WHICH IT STATES ID FOR 3" HI FLOW CATS.

4. BORLA 2-1/2 EXHAUST PART NUMBER 140048 FRO STOCK CATS.

5 Let us not forget that dodge uses a 2-1/2" exhaust also on the viper.

Well I guess everyone else, including me, is wrong because we make 2-1/2 exhaust systems along with 3".

When speaking with Randon Technology, on the phone regarding their hi flow cats, they informed me that unless you are running a blower or a full race engine that 2-1/2 exhaust systems are more than enough. Like I said they they informed me therefor maybe you should call them and talk with them directly.

I would also like to quote Jon from the Parts Rack regarding Random Tech cats:

"PartsRack strongly recommends upgrading to a set of RandomTech high-flow catalytic converters. Upgraded cats improve power by providing better airflow, are significantly lighter than stock cats, and keep your side sills much cooler."2 1/2 inch in/out Mid-flow Cat

 

[ulllose]

Robbie-

Like I said before, the corsa system i was not dead set on but for the $ it could not be passed-up.
I have never heard the corsa system up close so this will be a surprise, i hope i like it.
I'm guessing I will still have side sill heat issues but my sills now are around 175-200 degrees on a hot day so if i drop the incabin heat alittle i will be happy. If the side sill stay the same well, oh-well it will keep people from coming up close...lol

 

[Bobpantax]

Atro Racing Products says: " Everyone which has come into our shop was deep blue from overheating and the customer was complaining of getting burnt to death."

If they were "burnt to death", I guess it was their ghosts complaining. I had a Corsa cat back with high flow cats on my Roe supercharged 1999 GTS. The Corsa was excellent and generated less heat than the stock setup. I now have the Corsa track cat back on my 2006 supercharged SRT - 10 coupe and there is far less heat in the side sills than a stock sytem would generate and much less heat with respect to the passenger compartment. Corsa makes an excellent product and stands behind that product 100%.

 

[ROGUE]

Without a doubt ceramic coating is a great way to cut down on the heat issue. No where did I say, "that I can find, that a 2-1/2" exhaust will make more power tahn a 3" on a 500ci 500hp motor."

Really, you didn't? In This Thread You said TWICE that the 3" was only for blower/turbo cars, and that a 3" had lost power on your car... And if Ceramic coating is the way to go, then why not do that and bypass the rigged up header tape that is only going to damage the tubes?

for the record the following companies offer a 2-1/2" exhaust system so I guess they do not know what they are doing according to you.

1 CORSA 2-1/2" TRACK EXHAUST PT NUMBER 14176 FOR STOCK CATS.

2 CORSA 2-1/2" SOUNDSCAPE EXHAUST PT NUMBER 14175 FOR STOCK CATS.

3 YES CORSA MAKES A 3" TRACK EXHAUST, PART NUMBERB14174, WHICH IT STATES ID FOR 3" HI FLOW CATS.

4. BORLA 2-1/2 EXHAUST PART NUMBER 140048 FRO STOCK CATS.

5 Let us not forget that dodge uses a 2-1/2" exhaust also on the viper.

Well I guess everyone else, including me, is wrong because we make 2-1/2 exhaust systems along with 3".

The only reason those companies make 2 1/2 is to use the stock cats. ALL the PERFORMANCE (aka Track) exhaust are 3". If someone just wants to change sound, and has no desire to increase performance then by all means go 2 1/2, but everyone else should have a 3". Someone may make a 2" exhaust for the viper, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to install it. Quite a few people make parts that do nothing but empty your wallet *cough* viperair *cough*

Just out of curiosity, since you claim to have had "engineered" different exhaust setups and tested on a flow benched. Do you know what the unrestricted CFM flow of a straight 2 1/2" pipe is vs 3"?? And better yet, do you know what CFM the Viper V10 pumps out at 6000 rpm?

When speaking with Randon Technology, on the phone regarding their hi flow cats, they informed me that unless you are running a blower or a full race engine that 2-1/2 exhaust systems are more than enough. Like I said they they informed me therefor maybe you should call them and talk with them directly.

I would also like to quote Jon from the Parts Rack regarding Random Tech cats:

"PartsRack strongly recommends upgrading to a set of RandomTech high-flow catalytic converters. Upgraded cats improve power by providing better airflow, are significantly lighter than stock cats, and keep your side sills much cooler."2 1/2 inch in/out Mid-flow Cat

So basically what you're saying is.. You Don't know. All you can do is quote what other people have told you. Even though you "Engineered" (who is the engineer again?) this system, the best you can provide is what the company (they aren't biased are they?) who makes them tells you?

I agree randomtech does make quality parts, that i'm not debating, but I find it hilarious you sell these parts but can't explain them with any technical detail. As well RT makes STOCK REPLACEMENT cats. Of course they are going to offer a size that will fit the complete exhaust system. But saying that only a built motor or supercharge car needs a 3" exhaust is absolutely laughable. Go back and work on that elementary math problem I gave you, and see if you still agree. But then again as an "Engineer" these are things you should know.

If there is one thing I absolutely can't stand it's a hack salesman spouting this useless drivel just to hear his own **** flap in the breeze.

 

[Kenny]

No where did I say, "that I can find, that a 2-1/2" exhaust will make more power tahn a 3" on a 500ci 500hp motor."

Oh, really. Sounds like you are getting caught up in your own doubletalk in an effort to make sales. You say whatever gets you a sale. For instance, let's compare the above quote with the below quote also from you taken from another thread.

I do believe we make to most free flowing exhaust out there that both produces lots of horsepower and also is not to loud unless you stand on it.
Please se our web site at the link below and feel free to email me or call me anytime.
thanks,
Robbie

http://www.members.aol.com/AtroRacingTeam/PRODUCTS/AtRoRacingsProductCatalog

Again, you are simply trying to turn a buck. How pathetic.

 

[Racer Robbie]

I must be all wrong according to you experts. And Rolls Royce and Bently must be all wrong too. They have been wrapping their exhaust ysytems from way back in the 1960's and they have never had a problem.

 

[Racer Robbie]

ulllose

I hope you enjoy your car and its new exhaust, hell I would have installed it on my car for the price you got it for. Get out in the sun and enjoy the ride.
Robbie

 

[Racer Robbie]

TO Bobpantax , All the corsa exhaust that we have seen get hot and melt aftermarket side sills have been on vipers with stock cats and were 2-1/2 systems.

TO ROUGE "The only reason those companies make 2 1/2 is to use the stock cats. ALL the PERFORMANCE (aka Track) exhaust are 3". Thats funny as I remember mentioning above that Corsa makes a 2-1/2" Track System and I will requote"
1 CORSA 2-1/2" TRACK EXHAUST PT NUMBER 14176 FOR STOCK CATS."

As for the rest of the above statements they are not worth any comment.

 

[Racer Robbie]

TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SO INTERESTED IN BASHING ME.

First off none of you know me, have ever met me, and have not spoken with me in your whole life so to make such commen ts is just as wrong as what I did regarding exhaust sims .Everybody makes mistakes, I am far from perfect, and I am man enough to admit that I screwed up when discussing the sims that take the place of O2 sensors and I am sorry. I had never heard of them before, we never used them in NASCAR.I was wrong to call them "Snake Oil" as I have been educated in there use and there are people using them successfully. But to say I do not know what I am doing in my field is slanderous and just as wrong as me calling sims snake oil. I have never felt that it is right to recommend a product that I have never heard of or have tried personally as we all know there are a lot of snake oil products out there like that ECM add on module that some guy on eBay was selling awhile ago. I do not know of anyone, except god, who is perfect and knows everything that is out there on the market in the performance world today. We have many happy customers who have bought our exhaust products, along with other products, and they do not feel they have been ripped off as they feel they received a high quality product. If there is any doubt in anyone's mind as to the quality of our products or our before and after sales support you need to go no further then these to post from two customers that bought our exhaust systems.

http://www4.forum.viperclub.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB21&Number=666969&fpart=&PHPSESSID=

http://www4.forum.viperclub.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB21&Number=682797&Forum=All_Forums&Words=10664&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=682797&Search=true#Post682797


We have been in business since 1979 and have a perfect record with the Better Business Bureau. Again I am not perfect but I must have done something right during 27 years in business with with the 2500 customers that I have.

Again I am sorry, and apologize, for coming on as strong as I did, I tend to get carried away as I am as passionate about vipers as the rest of you.I do bet your forgiveness.

Robbie
AtRo Racing Products

 

[ROGUE]

I must be all wrong according to you experts. And Rolls Royce and Bently must be all wrong too. They have been wrapping their exhaust ysytems from way back in the 1960's and they have never had a problem.

LOL, so you're all about using 1960's technology on a modern car? If you had ANY racing experience it would be very very apparent over the years why exhaust wraps are so bad.

A 2 1/2" "track exhaust" You might want to call Corsa and see what their marketing dept says about that. Wait you mean people give things fancy names to appeal to buyers, and release any emissions liability. Nooooo never. As I said, I could take a 2" exhaust and call it a super track racing exahust. That doesn't make it adequate for the job now does it?

The other questions aren't worth your time? Aka you have no idea. Thats what I thought. I think those few questions are far more important than flapping your lips about everything else. As that would actually prove some credibility to your knowledge and understanding of the exhaust system, flow requirements, thermal heat retention, velocity, etc. etc.

 

[Vipermann]

I must chime in and say that I have experienced and been reading for some time (incl. other forums, other cars) that sometimes a smaller pipe (e.g. 2.5" vs. 3") will make more power ... it has to do with the exhaust gas staying hotter in a smaller pipe and thus flowing faster ... there is a 'sweet spot' for every motor/set-up ... too small, and you lose high-rpm exhaust flow, too big, and the gas cools in the pipe and flows slower at low-rpms (lose torque) ... I don't know whether 2.5" or 3" pipe is most optimal for the Viper ... 8.3L is a big engine, but a 6.0L V8 will push out more gas per second at 4500 rpms than an 8.3L will push out a 3000 rpms ... in other words, there is a trade-off between low rpm torque and high-rpm power

 

[Racer Robbie]

QUOTE = "I must chime in and say that I have experienced and been reading for some time (incl. other forums, other cars) that sometimes a smaller pipe (e.g. 2.5" vs. 3") will make more power ... it has to do with the exhaust gas staying hotter in a smaller pipe and thus flowing faster ... there is a 'sweet spot' for every motor/set-up ... too small, and you lose high-rpm exhaust flow, too big, and the gas cools in the pipe and flows slower at low-rpms (lose torque) ... I don't know whether 2.5" or 3" pipe is most optimal for the Viper ... 8.3L is a big engine, but a 6.0L V8 will push out more gas per second at 4500 rpms than an 8.3L will push out a 3000 rpms ... in other words, there is a trade-off between low rpm torque and high-rpm power"


Thank you Viperman. What you are saying held true when we were racing Nascar Modifieds. We would use a larger diameter pipes on long race tracks where we need high rpm's and less torque. On smaller bullrings we would go with smaller diameter pipes which would give us lots of low end torque down low in the rpm band so we could hook up off of the tight corners. A far as your quote above I could not agree more. These is no set rule for the size of an exhaust system as it depends on it's intended use and the size of the track it is being raced on.


Again Thanks,
Robbie

 

[Bobpantax]

Atro said: "TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SO INTERESTED IN BASHING ME.

First off none of you know me, have ever met me, and have not spoken with me in your whole life so to make such commen ts is just as wrong as what I did regarding exhaust sims .Everybody makes mistakes, I am far from perfect, and I am man enough to admit that I screwed up when discussing the sims that take the place of O2 sensors and I am sorry. I had never heard of them before, we never used them in NASCAR.I was wrong to call them "Snake Oil" as I have been educated in there use and there are people using them successfully. But to say I do not know what I am doing in my field is slanderous and just as wrong as me calling sims snake oil. I have never felt that it is right to recommend a product that I have never heard of or have tried personally as we all know there are a lot of snake oil products out there like that ECM add on module that some guy on eBay was selling awhile ago. I do not know of anyone, except god, who is perfect and knows everything that is out there on the market in the performance world today. We have many happy customers who have bought our exhaust products, along with other products, and they do not feel they have been ripped off as they feel they received a high quality product. If there is any doubt in anyone's mind as to the quality of our products or our before and after sales support you need to go no further then these to post from two customers that bought our exhaust systems."

What you do not seem to understand, or, in the alternative, show a complete lack of respect for, are the written and unwritten rules for vendor conduct on these fora. By taking every opportunity to **** your own product inventory,you are alienating many. Some, like me, post. I can assure you that there are more who are not pleased with your conduct on these fora since I have heard from some by PM. No one begrudges you a living but please respect the written and unwritten rules of vendor conduct in the community within which you have chosen to interact. The Viper is a class act. Those Vendors who act consistently with that theme do well. The bottom line is that if you have something to sell, post it in the section entitled: "New Products and Supplier Specials" where it belongs. Good luck with your business.

 

[Kenny]

I must chime in and say that I have experienced and been reading for some time (incl. other forums, other cars) that sometimes a smaller pipe (e.g. 2.5" vs. 3") will make more power ... it has to do with the exhaust gas staying hotter in a smaller pipe and thus flowing faster ... there is a 'sweet spot' for every motor/set-up ... too small, and you lose high-rpm exhaust flow, too big, and the gas cools in the pipe and flows slower at low-rpms (lose torque) ... I don't know whether 2.5" or 3" pipe is most optimal for the Viper ... 8.3L is a big engine, but a 6.0L V8 will push out more gas per second at 4500 rpms than an 8.3L will push out a 3000 rpms ... in other words, there is a trade-off between low rpm torque and high-rpm power

What you are talking about is scavenging---the heat and flow in the pipe actually sucking the exhaust gases out of combustion chamber. It has far more to do with header primary and collector diameter and length than it does pipe diameter downstream of the headers.

As to what diameter of exhaust is optimal for the Viper motor, I think we need only to look to the experts at Viper Race Headquarters who use the 3" Mopar Race exhaust on the Comp Coupes they build. Although the CC motor does have a different cam and slightly different tune, it is in all other respects identical to the motor found in the SRT-10 and is built on the same line. Believe me, if a 2 1/2" exhaust was better, that's what they would use.

Fatho, you are an idiot grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to regain some of your shattered credibility.

 

[Racer Robbie]

Bobpantax,

I totally understand and agree with you and others which is why I made a public apology in the form of a new post. I have enough class to admit I was wrong. But the rules also do not allow name bashing, swearing, off color comments, and other personal attacks that have been made towards me, something I would never do to another fellow viper owner. If someone does not agree with me, just say so without the above mentioned name calling and attacks. That is the difference between people who have class and those who do not. You, Bobpantax do have class.
Thank you for your suggestions, I will heed them.
Robbie


Robbie

 

[ROGUE]

I must chime in and say that I have experienced and been reading for some time (incl. other forums, other cars) that sometimes a smaller pipe (e.g. 2.5" vs. 3") will make more power ... it has to do with the exhaust gas staying hotter in a smaller pipe and thus flowing faster ... there is a 'sweet spot' for every motor/set-up ... too small, and you lose high-rpm exhaust flow, too big, and the gas cools in the pipe and flows slower at low-rpms (lose torque) ... I don't know whether 2.5" or 3" pipe is most optimal for the Viper ... 8.3L is a big engine, but a 6.0L V8 will push out more gas per second at 4500 rpms than an 8.3L will push out a 3000 rpms ... in other words, there is a trade-off between low rpm torque and high-rpm power

That is correct, somewhat. As Kenny stated it has FAR more to do with headers than a full exhaust system. In reality a full exhaust in any form is a huge hinderance to the motor, and only used by us to control sound and get the gases to a safe location. The idea is to reduce this hinderance as much as possible while still keeping it functional.

When it comes to exhaust systems (sans headers) it's actually very very simple. Reduce backpressure and let the header/collector work as efficiently as possible. Given even the most basic paramaters (ci, rpm, ve) it's fairly simple to calculate the airflow and see that dual 2 1/2" pipes will be a restriction in the system. While some may claim the smaller pipes help build torque, where the restriction is placed does nothing but impede the function of the headers, and restrict the exhaust flow in every way.

Given that even moderate HP small blocks run dual 3" pipes, it's laughable to run anything smaller on a 500ci motor. A few with highly modified cars are finally seeing the light as well, steping up to 4" and larger exhaust systems, and finding substantial power gains along the way.

I'm still waiting for atro to post up the calculations on how he sized his exhaust system, flow requirements, and what type of CFM this engine is capable of. But something tells me he just went with what was popular and gave no thought into proper design.

 

[Racer Robbie]

To Rogue, Kenny, and Zorroespanol

Except for Kenny who is listed as a club member the other two of you are enthusiast. Do any of you personally own a Dodge SRT-10 Viper?
Robbie

 

[twinturbo3150]

To Rogue, Kenny, and Zorroespanol

Except for Kenny who is listed as a club member the other two of you are enthusiast. Do any of you personally own a Dodge SRT-10 Viper?
Robbie

Rogue wrote:btw viprvenm, beautiful car. Sapphire has long been my favorite color, one day i'll ditch this boring red for one

My guess is Rogue own's a red one,

 

[Racer Robbie]

I was just wondering as he is listed as a enthusiast.
Robbie