Am I the only one?

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The point of a sports car is to go, turn and stop fast.

No. The point of a sports car is for sport. If all you wanna do is go fast then strap yourself to a rocket and go. Mash the pedals and turn the wheel. Not much skill or sport involved in that but if it's what you like, go buy a Vett and have at it.

As for the wine and cheese F1 crowd, even they realize how boring nanny-tech is. No TC for 2008. But we've had this discussion before.

 

[2snakes4us]

QUOTE= I often comment that driving a Viper is like going out with a gorgeous blonde* and finding out a few days later she is extremely intelligent [/QUOTE

Hey Bill....My Wife says your a very Intelligent Man

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

By the way, technology doesn't equal unreliability.

Tell that to the poster who yesterday asked if anyone else's ABS light came on.
Or to the number of guys having to deal with swapping TPS wheels for track wheels.
Or just wait until the drive-by-wire fails and can't be fixed with a washer like the cable-driven Vipers can.

All three of which could and will end a track day.

Last Saturday while testing a team's turbocharged S2000 I was asked why I chose a Viper. "Big motor and simplicity" was my answer. During the first session the Honda's turbo system went bad, destroyed the motor and the day was over, which amounted to a wasted day at a cost in the thousands. It wasn't nanny-tech, but it was tech and it ruined a full track day.

 

[Hayabusa]

In this season of brotherly love can't we all just get along?

Only kiddin'. Rice = kids (have you ever seen NOPI on Speed?). Hope they enjoy, looks like fun but I'm not a kid anymore.

Vettes appeal to a certain set. I've owned 4 over time, each less than 2 years. One day my wife suggested I get what I really want and stop flipping cars that don't really do it for me. Enter VIPER!!!

Love her for what she is and what she provides me. Don't want a car or a wife that's a nanny. I'm lucky to have both that look hot, ride hard, are dependable, and give me a thrill. It's all that I can ask for.

Upgrades to suspension, brakes, and HP are cool (I do miss the heads up display on my last Vette). No thank you to automatic, AWD, nanny aides. I have a daily driver with those.

To all on the forum, HAPPY NEW YEARS and a healthy, prosperous 2008 !!!!!!

 

[Warfang]

In this season of brotherly love can't we all just get along?

Only kiddin'. Rice = kids (have you ever seen NOPI on Speed?). Hope they enjoy, looks like fun but I'm not a kid anymore.

Vettes appeal to a certain set. I've owned 4 over time, each less than 2 years. One day my wife suggested I get what I really want and stop flipping cars that don't really do it for me. Enter VIPER!!!

Love her for what she is and what she provides me. Don't want a car or a wife that's a nanny. I'm lucky to have both that look hot, ride hard, are dependable, and give me a thrill. It's all that I can ask for.

Upgrades to suspension, brakes, and HP are cool (I do miss the heads up display on my last Vette). No thank you to automatic, AWD, nanny aides. I have a daily driver with those.

To all on the forum, HAPPY NEW YEARS and a healthy, prosperous 2008 !!!!!!

I'm sure your lovely wife appreciates you describing how hard she rides.

Welcome back to the barfight Chuck!

 

[black mamba1]

Along w/ the Vipers aggressive look is its reputation to be a very dangerous car to mess with should you come across it. But we cannot let our fondness for its current form blind us to the competition. There are guys driving 500 hp AC Cobras and 400 hp 72 Chevelles w/ nitrous shots that make many of the same arguments made here about keeping the Viper "pure". I come across those older cars on the highway all the time. The few that have been willing to challenge me got their asses kicked. Now, I know there are some 10 second Pontiac GTO's w/ superchargers, nitrous, 3 foot wide tires,, 411 positrac....etc that will kick my ass in the 1/4, but thats about all those cars can do. They cannot turn, they cannot brake, they are a total bastard to drive.

The Germans are very competitive, as are the Japanese. I am telling you, this new ZR1 Vette and the GTR is just the beginning. When Acura launches a 2010 model 2900 lb NSX w/ 575 hp, twin turbo, 3:42 gearing, and awd, Audi will respond...and on and on. I am simply saying that Viper will have to respond in more ways than just upping the horsepower...b/c as I said b4, at 600-700 rwhp things happen faster than the human mind can process...and you will need computers to keep up with this new generation of sports cars, or we become the new AC Cobras of the sports car industry.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

When the Germans and **** respond with nannycars that can beat a 600+hp purist Viper it won't bother me in the least. Rollercoasters and Xbox haven't been fun for me since I bought my first Viper. I'm sure I'll still have more fun being in control of my whimpy little 600hp Viper than some electronic nanny car, regardless of who finishes first.

 

[Warfang]

When the Germans and **** respond with nannycars that can beat a 600+hp purist Viper it won't bother me in the least. Rollercoasters and Xbox haven't been fun for me since I bought my first Viper. I'm sure I'll still have more fun being in control of my whimpy little 600hp Viper than some electronic nanny car, regardless of who finishes first.

It's a Zen thing, Chuck... some people will never understand while in pursuit of paper-bragging rights.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

It's a Zen thing, Chuck... some people will never understand while in pursuit of paper-bragging rights.

So true. The gratification of hearing someone say "You ran that time without ABS?!" is unmatched by anything anybody hears driving a nannytech car.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I just read BM1's pax vs roe vs turbo post.

I'm curious BM1, if nannyaids are so important why not contact Woodhouse about getting their aftermarket TC system installed before spending 30K strapping another couple hundred HP to your already traction-challenged Viper?

TC upgrades not so much fun? Do worry, I can relate.

 

[DII]

Love her for what she is and what she provides me. Don't want a car or a wife that's a nanny. I'm lucky to have both that look hot, ride hard, are dependable, and give me a thrill. It's all that I can ask for.

Bro your so hilarious, but at the same time SOOO right! LOL

I really got a kick out of this comment, have a Happy and Safe New Year!

 

[Jerome Sparich]

That understands and realizes that our SRT competition is going to awd and traction control for the high horsepower engines. Better gearing, traction control, and awd has led to cars w/ less than 100 hp than our beloved Vipers putting down 1/4 times much lower than our Vipers (Nissan GTR). We all know most races are stop light to stop light....thats where the bragging rights come from.

Am I the only one that thinks we might be entering a new age in high performance street cars? Am I the only one that is concerned that in 2-4 years we will see 500 hp awd Benzes and Audis w/ a 3:45 rear end that will kick a Vipers ass just due to grip and gearing?

Consider the new ZR1. Yes, many of us are having a great time bashing this car. This car is lighter than the SRT. Has better gearing than the SRT. Has traction control. Has MAJOR power at low rpm, which is ideal in 1/4 mile runs....

Are high hp rwd only cars becoming a thing of the past? Will our SRT's be living a nightmare in 2-4 years due to awd competition? Whaddya think?

What do you want, a car that you drive? Or a car that "drives" for you?

Some people get satisfaction knowing that they are the ones in control and have the skills to show just what the car can do. While others want to say how fast they are, when infact, the car could do it with a chimp in it.

So again, what do you want?

 

[DEKE01]

Some people get satisfaction knowing that they are the ones in control and have the skills to show just what the car can do.

DING DING DING!!!

We have a winnah!

 

[Warfang]

What do you want, a car that you drive? Or a car that "drives" for you?

Some people get satisfaction knowing that they are the ones in control and have the skills to show just what the car can do. While others want to say how fast they are, when infact, the car could do it with a chimp in it.

You'd be surprised at the number of people on here who ARE chimps.

 

[black mamba1]

I am not promoting any particular approach. This post is intended to be thought provoking. I was drag racing back in 88-89 in a n/a Vette and was the fastest in town. That is until a Buick GNX showed up w/ 330 hp and turbo charged. That was considered radical at the time. I raced a postman who had a GNX...worst ass-whooping I had ever had.

Do not get me wrong. I take pride in the fact that I have no traction or awd control and that I create nightmares in the Porsches and Ferrari's that pull up next to me. I take pride in the fact that it is driver vs nanny....but...I have am an engineer by degree and I totally understand that there is a practical limit to how far we can go w/ this "intellingent driver vs nanny" approach. No need to take sides, no need to be concerned at this point in time.
But again, this post is intended to be thought provoking...just like the Gen 1's hated abs...the Gen V Viper may just be a 700 hp awd taction controlled monster.....question is...

Will the purist support such a car?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

the Gen V Viper may just be a 700 hp awd taction controlled monster.....question is...

Will the purist support such a car?

If I support it it won't be with the vigor I currently have.

 

[Warfang]

I am not promoting any particular approach. This post is intended to be thought provoking. I was drag racing back in 88-89 in a n/a Vette and was the fastest in town. That is until a Buick GNX showed up w/ 330 hp and turbo charged. That was considered radical at the time. I raced a postman who had a GNX...worst ass-whooping I had ever had.

Do not get me wrong. I take pride in the fact that I have no traction or awd control and that I create nightmares in the Porsches and Ferrari's that pull up next to me. I take pride in the fact that it is driver vs nanny....but...I have am an engineer by degree and I totally understand that there is a practical limit to how far we can go w/ this "intellingent driver vs nanny" approach. No need to take sides, no need to be concerned at this point in time.
But again, this post is intended to be thought provoking...just like the Gen 1's hated abs...the Gen V Viper may just be a 700 hp awd taction controlled monster.....question is...

Will the purist support such a car?

This is why the Viper is not the only sportscar in the world. You want nannycrap or awd... get a vette, a porsche, a lotus, a lambo... the list goes on and on. Why mess with a car conceived with simplicity and raw power for the driver in mind?

 

[Alaska Viper]

Ok, my 2 cents...The Viper really turned the hot rod world on end when it came out. From then on, it was the measuring block for other performance cars of that era and now, but 400 HP turned into 500HP and then that evolved into 600HP. So, what am I saying? Our horse power climbed due to our competion rising to the challenge and this will continue for as long as we are driving on roads and have enough oil in the world to run these monsters!!! I have read many articles of twin turbo Vipers that are 1000HP spinning tires in 3rd and 4th gear...It is only a matter of time before the Vipers will have so much power from the factory that it will be impossible to launch them without some type of "Help" on the street or on the track, and as one said earlier in the post, at least this will make the car safer. I probably won't be the first to line up for the auto tranny or the cruise control, but, as mentioned, a whole new bunch of people buying Vipers that wouldn't purchase the Viper before because of it's lack of "Creature Comforts" might just convince Dodge to increase sales and possibly with this, increase the Vipers ability to keep the others at bay for years to come. I know we all love not seeing as many Vipers around as we see Corvettes, but this might be what it takes to keep the Viper on top of the performance ladder (in its price range).

I like the car the way it is, but I also know that change is inevitable. The military tried years ago to do "More with less"...IT DIDN'T WORK. With the Viper, more meaning more power and faster. Less meaning no traction control and rear wheel drive, but with more power and torque. Something needs to be improved...I don't think it will work without some kind of improvement and that is all I got to say about that...(F.G.)

 

[j-rho]

One thing I've always liked about the Viper is that it made no excuses in striving to be the quickest amongst its competitors. To a point, more power and bigger tires was enough of a formula to get it there.

The car has enough power now that 0-60 is limited only by available grip; with an '08 you can get to 60 in first, but won't be able to use full throttle on the way. It's only a matter of time before cars will be traction limited on OEM tires through the 1/8th, maybe eventually the 1/4 (a la Hennessey TT).

The only thing that can improve the Viper's position is by getting more weight over the drive tires. The "wrong" Porsche 911 has it right, with the bulk of its weight on its drive tires at rest. AWD cars can't help but have 100% of their weight on their drive tires. The Viper has a bit over 50% at rest, while the Vette has less than 50%. Maybe it's time to move the V10 to the trunk?

As for nannying, I think the Viper is actually quite neutered from the factory. They purposely made it understeer quite a bit steady-state with narrow wheels and tires up front, so fewer people would wreck their cars on the drive home. The Honda S2000 I bought new about 7 years ago was much less dumbed-down in that regard. At least Dodge was nice enough to leave us enough room up front to fit "proper" sized wheels and tires and remedy the understeer, but I don't see how that's any different from providing a traction control feature that can be turned off. The latter is a lot less work...

Sure, TC or ABS are two more things that can go wrong, but they are quite commonplace these days. Our cars are already dependent on so many features and devices under the covers of equal or greater complexity just to start the engine, it seems unwarranted to stress about these small additions. Things like electronic fuel injection, with a myriad of pumps, sensors, and injectors; the security system with coded chips in the key and ECU dependency; not to mention the fancy and somewhat unique cam-in-cam setup in use on the 2008s.

I think people have the wrong idea about the impact of driving aids, at least in regards to those in play while going round a track. A normal traction or stability control system is designed to keep the weekend warrior from wadding their car up; it isn't going to make them produce Schumacher performances in the absence of talent. In truth, only the finest and most sophisticated of these systems (i.e., those out of the reach of most, and certainly not anything coming on a Chevy, at least not yet) are advanced enough to not be a hindrance to a very good driver while in operation.

Now that some other manufacturers are producing motors with some balls and combining it with a greater % weight on the drive wheels, the front-engined/RWD Viper is doomed to start losing 0-60 and 1/4 mile races. For those whose egos are tied to such things, ..

 

[Warfang]

same argument, different thread

You sure picked the wrong time to resign, Herb. I wish you would come on here and tell us your thoughts and feelings on this matter. Settle it once and for all.

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

Just had to interject my opinion here. I do not track my Viper but I am a professional truck driver and the oversized truck I drive has ABS. The ABS did fail suddenly on me because of a broken sensor and a it was an unnerving experience to say the least in a multi-ton vehicle. My Chevy Blazer also had an ABS failure issue. In addition, ABS in the ice and snow really does **** on any vehicle I have driven. The TC on my C5 does work in the rain better than expected but my right foot alone does a much better job.

Too many of those who promote F1 technology forget that real F1 cars are virtually taken apart and rebuilt after every race to keep everything working at optimal levels. That level of maintenence is impractical for a street car.

The beauty of a Viper, as Chuck and others demonstrate on the track, is that lap after lap it will be in the hunt for the win with a reliable low tech platform. While other cars have failure, the Viper keeps hitting the laps and will get you to the finish line and will probably do it with less maintenence time and cost.

 

[dave6666]

I think my GTS is the sexiest car ever built, doing any speed, at any acceleration.

So my stress level over something faster at the track or faster on paper is pretty low.

Sorry, just 0.02 from a non-garage queen poser type.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

One thing I've always liked about the Viper is that it made no excuses in striving to be the quickest amongst its competitors. To a point, more power and bigger tires was enough of a formula to get it there.

The car has enough power now that 0-60 is limited only by available grip; with an '08 you can get to 60 in first, but won't be able to use full throttle on the way. It's only a matter of time before cars will be traction limited on OEM tires through the 1/8th, maybe eventually the 1/4 (a la Hennessey TT).

The only thing that can improve the Viper's position is by getting more weight over the drive tires. The "wrong" Porsche 911 has it right, with the bulk of its weight on its drive tires at rest. AWD cars can't help but have 100% of their weight on their drive tires. The Viper has a bit over 50% at rest, while the Vette has less than 50%. Maybe it's time to move the V10 to the trunk?

As for nannying, I think the Viper is actually quite neutered from the factory. They purposely made it understeer quite a bit steady-state with narrow wheels and tires up front, so fewer people would wreck their cars on the drive home. The Honda S2000 I bought new about 7 years ago was much less dumbed-down in that regard. At least Dodge was nice enough to leave us enough room up front to fit "proper" sized wheels and tires and remedy the understeer, but I don't see how that's any different from providing a traction control feature that can be turned off. The latter is a lot less work...

Sure, TC or ABS are two more things that can go wrong, but they are quite commonplace these days. Our cars are already dependent on so many features and devices under the covers of equal or greater complexity just to start the engine, it seems unwarranted to stress about these small additions. Things like electronic fuel injection, with a myriad of pumps, sensors, and injectors; the security system with coded chips in the key and ECU dependency; not to mention the fancy and somewhat unique cam-in-cam setup in use on the 2008s.

I think people have the wrong idea about the impact of driving aids, at least in regards to those in play while going round a track. A normal traction or stability control system is designed to keep the weekend warrior from wadding their car up; it isn't going to make them produce Schumacher performances in the absence of talent. In truth, only the finest and most sophisticated of these systems (i.e., those out of the reach of most, and certainly not anything coming on a Chevy, at least not yet) are advanced enough to not be a hindrance to a very good driver while in operation.

Now that some other manufacturers are producing motors with some balls and combining it with a greater % weight on the drive wheels, the front-engined/RWD Viper is doomed to start losing 0-60 and 1/4 mile races. For those whose egos are tied to such things, ..

There is almost nothing I agree with in this post and too many things to dispute for the time I have.

Suffice it to say, Vipers were and are built for tracking. And trackers don't like TC and typically don't like all the other crap unless they've got a team to fix things when they break.

 

[fqberful]

There is almost nothing I agree with in this post and too many things to dispute for the time I have.

Suffice it to say, Vipers were and are built for tracking. And trackers don't like TC and typically don't like all the other crap unless they've got a team to fix things when they break.

Right on Chuck! There's an old engineering principal called KISS. You engineering types know exactly what it means, perhaps many have forgotten.

Reliability is #1, and the more electronic and mechanical mickey mouse you add to a car, the more inherently UNreliable it becomes. Does it make the car less dangerous for the unskilled driver ? Maybe. Does that mean everyone should pay ? Hell no!

Not only that, but NO machine is better than an appropriately skilled human ... At least not yet, and hopefully not ever.

I'm totally opposed to even the drive-by-wire in the 08's ... That's all about emissions and insurance not better performance. ABS ***** for the skilled driver but the insurance companies pretty much mandate that for cars that are driven on public roads because there are sooooooooo many totally unskilled drivers.

</soapbox>

 

[j-rho]

I can appreciate the KISS principle. For everyone there is a line somewhere between live axles & carbs (Nascar) and something like the GTR (pinnacle of modern techno nannyhood). To each his own.

The question is whether the Viper's esssence has been in shunning new tech just for the sake of shunning it in favor of perceived reliability, or whether those technologies were simply held off on until they reached a point in their evolution where a factory-reliable implementation would actually be of benefit to a good driver on a track. I like to think it's the latter.

Most of my racing experience has been on an autocross course, where cars are put into extreme dynamic situations, and things like ABS and TC stand out more than they might on a smooth racetrack. I have seen TC systems evolve from utterly awful and useless (anything on a Mustang, C5 stuff), to almost kinda workable and maybe only 1-2 seconds slower than off (latest C6 competition mode). I feel it is only a matter of time before these systems evolve to the point where in their "racing" modes they are completely unnoticable to an expert driver putting in a great lap, not slowing them down at all, yet still be able to save the ham-****** weekender from the walls. When Dodge comes up with such a system I think we'll see it on the Viper, but that's just a guess. From what I've heard Ferrari is already there with the system on the F430. I like not having to turn off TC every time I start my Viper, but if it was sophisticated enough to only intervene when I did something that was an error even in a racing situation (and helped to reduce the hit to that lap time) then I would not mind.

ABS is a no-brainer for me, unless you have 4 brake pedals and a couple more feet than I do, you won't be able to beat good ABS in most situations. When you're not braking in a perfectly straight line, or across perfectly consistent surfaces, a good ABS system (like on the SRT) will slow you better and keep your tires rounder in doing so. This is not to say that people shouldn't learn how to brake well or be smooth with the throttle, but the ABS computer has an advantage in that it has 4 inputs to control 4 devices, whereas the driver only gets 1.

 

[madman]

Last Saturday while testing a team's turbocharged S2000 I was asked why I chose a Viper. "Big motor and simplicity" was my answer. During the first session the Honda's turbo system went bad, destroyed the motor and the day was over, which amounted to a wasted day at a cost in the thousands. It wasn't nanny-tech, but it was tech and it ruined a full track day.

Although I mostly agree with low tech approach this argument was way off. It wasn't Honda technology but your team's technology who ruined a track day. S2k's engine is known technology marvel running at 100% theoretical levels for NA engine (120HP/liter vs. 72HP/liter which Viper gets). The consensus within the tuning community is that you CAN'T tune up this engine unless you screw things up by adding forged components and super/turbo chargers (say good bye to reliability). The beauty of Honda tech is that it can run 100k miles without swet.

I happen to own and track both S2k and Viper. Both are purist cars with Honda winning slightly at the reliability part based on design. I had both headers cracked on Viper (apparently bad design, 2nd and 4th tubes are interconnected by metal plate so when things vibrate it has naturally different characteristics then the tubes and puts a stress on joints) and starter replaced. With Honda I had no problems except of the engine being replaced when - through faulty gasket - water leaked in the piston and caused connecting rod to go through the block. But this wasn't a desing issue, it happened rather early after I purchased the car in 02.

Both Viper and S2k are great track cars through their relatively low tech and overall reliability. I can only smile making consistent 30 minutes track sessions at full throttle watching P and F guys cooling their cars every other lap

 

[Warfang]

Although I mostly agree with low tech approach this argument was way off. It wasn't Honda technology but your team's technology who ruined a track day. S2k's engine is known technology marvel running at 100% theoretical levels for NA engine (120HP/liter vs. 72HP/liter which Viper gets). The consensus within the tuning community is that you CAN'T tune up this engine unless you screw things up by adding forged components and super/turbo chargers (say good bye to reliability). The beauty of Honda tech is that it can run 100k miles without swet.

I happen to own and track both S2k and Viper. Both are purist cars with Honda winning slightly at the reliability part based on design. I had both headers cracked on Viper (apparently bad design, 2nd and 4th tubes are interconnected by metal plate so when things vibrate it has naturally different characteristics then the tubes and puts a stress on joints) and starter replaced. With Honda I had no problems except of the engine being replaced when - through faulty gasket - water leaked in the piston and caused connecting rod to go through the block. But this wasn't a desing issue, it happened rather early after I purchased the car in 02.

Both Viper and S2k are great track cars through their relatively low tech and overall reliability. I can only smile making consistent 30 minutes track sessions at full throttle watching P and F guys cooling their cars every other lap

comparing the viper to the s2k is like comparing a pistol to a howitzer and concluding the pistol edges ahead because it uses less gunpowder to kill 1 person. Nice car but different class.

 

[fqberful]

I can appreciate the KISS principle. For everyone there is a line somewhere between live axles & carbs (Nascar) and something like the GTR (pinnacle of modern techno nannyhood). To each his own.

ABS is a no-brainer for me, unless you have 4 brake pedals and a couple more feet than I do, you won't be able to beat good ABS in most situations. When you're not braking in a perfectly straight line, or across perfectly consistent surfaces, a good ABS system (like on the SRT) will slow you better and keep your tires rounder in doing so. This is not to say that people shouldn't learn how to brake well or be smooth with the throttle, but the ABS computer has an advantage in that it has 4 inputs to control 4 devices, whereas the driver only gets 1.

You've quite obviously never had an ABS failure or some situation occur like like the rubber coming off a front tire. You might find that 4 channel theory thing doesn't play, in many cases the ABS will prevent you from even using the brakes. Good thing the GenIII Viper has pretty good hand brake.

Do these things help when they're working properly ? Maybe, that's a point of contention, do they cause even bigger issues when they don't, you bet. Without ABS in the above example it's quite easy to modulate the brakes with my brain and foot and maintain control with both hands on the wheel. Not so easy when the ABS thinks for me.

And yes, I've had this happen to me, though not with a Viper yet. This car was also throttle-by-wire and it removed all control from that aspect as well because they are tied together. NannyTech became a huge safety issue in my observation.

KISS principal applies, and the appropriate brain power and physical coordination aka skill do as well.

 

[j-rho]

Well, I'd rather have something that is optimized for when all 4 wheels are covered in rubber, than for those rare times when they aren't.

Ironically, the ABS on my Viper is broken at the moment for a reason I don't yet know, I bought it that way. The brakes in that mode still work really well, but there isn't any way to keep the outside tires at their limits without exceeding the limits of the inside tires when trail braking. I'll be glad when it's fixed. I've had a car (S2000 again) lose its ABS between runs at an autocross, and it wasn't until it was gone that one realizes how helpful a good ABS system can be. I've also modified and raced other cars with crap ABS systems that don't take to the mods or the driving (FWD cars lifting inside rear under trail braking) that go into "ice modes" and the like where the system becomes a liability, and out went the ABS fuse.

At the track where braking is more in a straight line, the ABS argument certainly loses some steam, at least in the dry. Perhaps my more autocross-centric background expains my differing viewpoint on the matter.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Although I mostly agree with low tech approach this argument was way off. It wasn't Honda technology but your team's technology who ruined a track day. S2k's engine is known technology marvel running at 100% theoretical levels for NA engine (120HP/liter vs. 72HP/liter which Viper gets). The consensus within the tuning community is that you CAN'T tune up this engine unless you screw things up by adding forged components and super/turbo chargers (say good bye to reliability). The beauty of Honda tech is that it can run 100k miles without swet.

I happen to own and track both S2k and Viper. Both are purist cars with Honda winning slightly at the reliability part based on design. I had both headers cracked on Viper (apparently bad design, 2nd and 4th tubes are interconnected by metal plate so when things vibrate it has naturally different characteristics then the tubes and puts a stress on joints) and starter replaced. With Honda I had no problems except of the engine being replaced when - through faulty gasket - water leaked in the piston and caused connecting rod to go through the block. But this wasn't a desing issue, it happened rather early after I purchased the car in 02.

Both Viper and S2k are great track cars through their relatively low tech and overall reliability. I can only smile making consistent 30 minutes track sessions at full throttle watching P and F guys cooling their cars every other lap

I did not mean to imply the Honda was not a solid motor. The point I was making was the aftermarket mod ruined the day. While I said "Honda's turbo" I meant it in an ownership way, not a manufacturer's way. I made the assumption that people knew S2000s didn't come with a turbo.

Regardless your claim that the Honda wins out against the Viper in the reliability department doesn't make sense. By your own post you compare the two. The Viper with a broken header (I assume stock headers?) and the Honda with a blown head gasket that grenaded the block?!!! After experiencing those how can you possibly say the Honda is more reliable? I know which breakdown I'd rather have and fortunately I've had neither in my 97 GTS 10-year dedicated tracker that has never had the heads off.

BTW the only other S2000 that day at Sebring blew a motor also. Maybe they had a faulty gasket too.