Anyone used HP Tuners on a gen 3?

[MoparMap]

As the title suggests, anyone around here had any experience using HP Tuners with a gen 3 car? I've been reading on their forums and other places about the teething pains and struggles they had with JTEC compatibility and it seems like the JTEC stuff is really inconsistent. Some people it works just fine, others can't get it to work at all. Some have to use the old interface device, others the new one works fine, etc. Even then, sometimes it will talk to a car but then not show any channels to log. What gets me is that the JTEC functionality seems like it started over 10 years ago (or at least the first beta testing and data gathering), but I've seen forum posts as late as this year that were still complaining about it not working well. The datalogging especially sounded pretty interesting, but if it doesn't want to populate the unique/extended PIDs then it doesn't make a lot of sense. The Viper stuff also always seems to be a little oddball and special. So even though it might still technically be a JTEC setup, it's different enough to not always be so straightforward.

 

[eaks]

I have used HP tuners (MVPI3) with my 2004 Gen 3. I worked with a tuner after my paxton supercharger install and was able to log fine and send some logs back and forth with him to get it all sorted out. Getting the serial input from the AEM wideband had me pulling my hair out and multiple times little changes (even just adjusting the display page) would often cause HP tuners to not see the wideband. I did a ton of changes and then once I finally got it logging again I didn't change anything and it has consistently worked since then. I also had issues writing the first tune to my ecu. I needed to download the latest beta version of the software and then all worked fine (I could read and datalog using the latest stable version). I just logged the default values as thats what the tuner said he needed (mainly just IATs, map pressure, and long and short term fuel trims).

 

[Old School]

I've been using HPtuners MPVI2+ on 2 Gen3s for a few years now. I log with 2 wide bands that provide a voltage that represents the A/F ratio. Other than taking 3.5 minutes to load a new tune (General Motors take 20-30 seconds) it's been pretty good.

 

[MoparMap]

Okay, that's reassuring to hear. I have an old wideband I took out of my 5.7 I was thinking I might try to use, though I'm not quite sure the best way to go about that without tripping some codes. It's an old Innovate LC-1 that has the simulated narrowband on a secondary output as well that I could potentially feed into the stock computer to keep it happy, but I think it might fault the heater circuit if I do that. I would put it where the secondary sensors go, but my headers have spark plug anti-foulers installed in them to try to trick the sensors to begin with, so not sure a sensor would read right in that location. Half tempted to just stuff it up the exhaust tip and see what it says. I know it would have a pretty good delay, but I'm only really looking to log some steady state stuff to start with.

 

[Dan Cragin]

HP is limited, SCT or proprietary platforms are better. The JTEC was not designed for boosted applications but can be adapted.
For a normally aspirated non motorsport application its a great engine controller and can support most speed density modifications.

 

[MoparMap]

HP is limited, SCT or proprietary platforms are better. The JTEC was not designed for boosted applications but can be adapted.
For a normally aspirated non motorsport application its a great engine controller and can support most speed density modifications.

That was actually another question I had been pondering. I had originally been looking at the SCT Pro Racer software and I also found B&G Performance Pro Tuner, which looks like it was developed by ex-Chrysler engineers. I was curious how they all compared as far as what they could change and what tables they had.

 

[efnfast]

I'm not sure if Gen 2 JTEC is different from Gen 3 JTEC, but on my Gen 2 I'm in the middle - some times HP Tuners work flawlessly (connects fine, reads fine, etc.) and half the time it just refuses to work and I have to shake it and keep trying over-and-over until it will randomly just decide to start working. And sometimes there are weird quirks, like it won't read st/lt fuel trims unless I start the car/reader in a certain sequence.

Torrie did his custom 3-bar tune on the OEM computer using HP Tuners and it runs like an absolute beast (night-and-day difference from the VEC2 it previously used), so there's definitely enough parameters available to do boosted applications, albeit with adaptation as Dan said above.

 

[Dan Cragin]

B&G has been tuning the Dodge platform since the 80's. He does know the JTEC controller quite well.

 

[Dan Cragin]

Dave Kasper is the guy there.

 

[zombie]

Semi-related, I was literally doing a bit of research last night regarding some sort of ECU tuner.

My 2006 (non-boosted) has belanger headers and exhaust and never really seems to run smoothly (lugs and chugs at anything approaching the speed limit, pretty much regardless of gear) and has a CEL for lean condition (from memory).

Without a dyno and tuner, is there any way to tune this roughness out? (Unfortunately I live near the wrong coast of Canada and dynos/tuners are few and far between)

 

[efnfast]

if you're going to do headers on any car you need a tune - i did a remote tune w/ Torrie on my gen 2 before getting it on the dyno and his remote tune was pretty close and only needed minor clean-up - https://unleashedtuning.com/

 

[Dan Cragin]

You have another problem, not related to the tuning that needs to be resolved first. Don't mind helping you with that if you PM me.
Once resolved, I have calibrations for that combination, as well as others who visit this site.

 

[MoparMap]

My application is still NA, so no worries about adapting to boost. I've been doing a lot of tuning and tweaking on the Megasquirt I have installed on the 5.7 Hemi in my Dart and was interested in potentially dipping my foot into the JTEC to see what it's like. I've read up a lot on it like the engine controller training manual they had for the Viper and just general engine management strategies.

My goal isn't to disable all the features and find workarounds, but rather to understand how they work and tune with them. I think too many places are always like "zero out all these tables because they make it hard to tune and I don't understand how they work". That's silly. Sure, some of those I'm sure don't need to be there for all applications or are built to do specific things that you might not need (like catalyst protection on a race car that might not have them), but I would rather understand how and why they do what they do before removing them.

Dan, I think I remember reading in a previous thread that you were working on a data logging system or something like that several years ago. Did that ever turn into anything? I'll have to see if I can find the old thread.

 

[MoparMap]

I guess it wasn't your post after all Dan. I went searching back through the forums to try to find the post and I guess it was actually from Chris at DC Performance:

Useful data logging is a big problem for people who are either trying to tune their cars themselves with the SCT Pro-Racer package, or are trying to relay useful information back to the person who is modifying their calibration. The Palmer XL suite, or similar setup such Logworks with the obd2 interface, is probably the most effective option you can find currently if you are just trying to build air fuel error tables. The problem with generic OBD2 that these tools use, is data rates are very slow, and they don't provide you with all of the vehicle specific pids that are needed to properly tune your car.Even the aftermarket tools that you can buy with enhanced PID support, tend to have very poor sample rates, one of which sample no faster than five times per second total. If you own a 2003 or newer Viper btw, the best tool I've found for generic data logging is the HP tuners interface with their beta 2.23 software. While still generic OBD2, it has by far, the best data rate I've seen with the OBD2 protocol.

I have working, and plan on releasing a logging interface with software application, that has the ability to log upwards of four hundred received bytes per second. Currently some of the speed will be dependent on your laptop, but even with a more modest machine, the data rates are many times faster then anything that is currently available. Right now, we are working on integrating a table plotting function similar to HP Tuners or Palmer XL.

I don't know if this post is appropriate here, so moderators, please move or delete if necessary.

- Chris

DC Performance: Proven Performance

That said, does anyone know if the logging software he was referencing was ever released? I'd be interested in looking it up, assuming there haven't been any other big advances in the past 15+ years since this post was made.

 

[Dan Cragin]

Let me get with Chris and see if he can chime in.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Boiled down:

For Gen-2/3...

SCT has more capabilities, but is harder to understand if you arent familiar.

HPT is handicapped and loaded with gremlins.

Logging ***** on both, if you can get it to work.

Older ELM based Palmer equipment seems to have the best logging options, as they were actually designed when the JTEC was current tech.

 

[MoparMap]

Boiled down:

For Gen-2/3...

SCT has more capabilities, but is harder to understand if you arent familiar.

HPT is handicapped and loaded with gremlins.

Logging ***** on both, if you can get it to work.

Older ELM based Palmer equipment seems to have the best logging options, as they were actually designed when the JTEC was current tech.

Have you ever heard of the B&G Performance stuff? It looks like they've been doing tuning services for a long time at least, but not sure how long their tuning software has been out.

I was doing some digging trying to find how Chrysler actually does the programming at an OEM/engineering level. I know a little about some of their various software from a high level perspective at least. Stuff like CDA and the .eng and calibration files there, but I haven't had any luck figuring out the actual software they use to make calibration files. I saw reference to an .efd editor, and some efd decoding software that does some high level decoding to give some parameter info like engine type and other text based entries, but not much more than that. One of the sample decoded .efd files made mention of "created by PowerCal" in the header text, but I haven't had any luck linking that back to a piece of software, whether internal to Chrysler or external.

I have a general idea of what is going on as we use controllers and parameter type files where I work as well. I get the split between the hard equations that are in the coding of the controller itself (stuff you can't realistically change) vs the parameters which are more just the variables that the code uses (more what the programmers out there do). I suspect that programs like SCT/Diablosport/HP Tuners/etc are effectively probably efd creators in their own right and are just creating calibration files that get flashed. Ultimately it all boils down to hex code that you're just putting in specific locations in memory on the controllers themselves, but I would be curious to know what program Dodge actually uses to create their original calibration files for the novelty of knowing. This stuff is all nearly two decades old at this point, so on the one hand you'd think there might be something out there nowadays, but on the other I can imagine that a lot of this stuff keeps developing into the newer controllers, so they might not want to give up any secrets that they are still using.

 

[vprtech]

If everything is working perfectly, HPT will connect using the Chrysler protocol for logging, if that does work, the data refresh rate is decent. On the other hand, if it connects using generic OBD2 it is anywhere from unusable slow to slow, the later G3 years being typically faster because they communicate via PCI. HPT is perfectly capable of using the SCI protocol on all 1996-2006 JTEC, I don't know what the issue exactly is but I believe it has to do with protocol detection since their cable has to work with GM - Ford - Dodge and other makes.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I do make a logging cable specifically for J2610 SCI A - B but most people won't bother because it is clunky compared to HPT, requires a separate piece of software - hardware over the SCT or HPT device, and all around is more effort and expense than most people want to make. The Chrysler protocol logs byte by byte, so the logging tool has to be very efficient at organizing the requests and sending them out immediatly after the ecu has sent a response to a request. The DRB3 is very slow as there is something like 50ms between requests, if you are watching 10 ram addresses the DRB3 with that delay, they will update those addresses only two times per second. If you are using the DRB3 in "flight recorder" mode, then it handles the bytes much faster (relatively speaking), up to 500 send-receives per second. Seperatly, you need with the SCI cable a definition for the logging parameters that is specific to your ecu. With that it is possible to log some parameters beyond the standard ones as opposed to the ones that you can see in the DRB3 (or HPT), for example the power enrichment multiplier.

Besides the actual application software that Chrysler used to alter parameters in the engine controller file, they had a device for data logging and editing parameters on the fly if you had a specially modified controller. It is interesting to think though, that to change parameters on the fly, the application engineer had to go address by address and key in the changes using a numberic key pad, quite a lot of work compared to altering parameters on a laptop as can be done with INCA.

Just like with other makes or models that HPT or SCT support, you are only seeing a handful of the calibration variables - tables that are in the engine controller. I can understand the interest in wanting to know how these controllers work, but to truley understand that, you would need to disassemble the ecu operating system.

The student workbooks are useful however keep in mind that there is information in them that is wrong, for examble how they explain the JTEC fuel calculation as these controllers are not VE based, i.e. you cannot scale for different injectors as you can in newer controllers such as NGC-GPEC, GM LS and really anything Ford.

 

[Dan Cragin]

Great explanation Chris!

 

[MoparMap]

Interesting. I believe I remember seeing some footage or article regarding live tuning using a ROM emulator. I'm guessing that would be the modified PCM as I would imagine you have to "splice in" the emulator in place of the existing ROM.

I actually have a DRB3. Can you do any useful logging with it without anything else connected? I don't have the computer interface cable and my experience with it led me to believe it was too slow to be all that useful, though I know you can set up some logging/graphing stuff. I never have tried because I thought that feature was mostly for the external sensors you could use with it and less so PCM style variables you might find in a table.

What is the INCA that you refer to? Guessing it's some kind of software, but that was a new one for me.

I was thinking about the difference between a VE and a pulse width lookup based formula on the way home, but I was having a hard time trying to figure out how they might be different in a practical sense. Wouldn't injector scaling just involve adjusting a full lookup table by a fixed percent difference to account for higher/lower flow? Or is the issue more when you get into the non-linear region of an injector like you might with larger injectors on a boosted application at idle?