Bellanger vs. the "other" headers

[wastntim]

Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I picked up my 02 RT a few months ago and have been investigating a new exhaust and headers. From what I've seen, I think I've decided to go with a corsa exhaust and randomtech Hi-Flows. The last issue is the headers. I must say that sound is as important as performance. I want it to be much louder.

The only exhaust that I have heard that I really liked had hene$$y long tube headers. The issue with that option is the very high cost. I have recently seen a few adds for bellanger headers at a much more reasonable cost. Can anyone tell me if they know if there is a big difference in sound between the two? Is the tone the same? What about volume?

 

[FE 065]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

With no actual experience with any of them, I'd still have to take a wild guess that there can't be much difference in sound between any of the headers alone, if the rest of the exhaust system that comes after the header is the same. I mean they're all 5 primary tubes leading into a collector.

Especially if primary tube ID/OD is the same between manufacturers.

I'd be really interested to read a response to the contrary-someone who's actually been able to compare what they known to be the same header back system with the only difference being the headers themselves. Interested because there doesn't seem to be a lot of reasons for there to be an acute sound difference between makes.

With most of the exit sound so far to the rear being more determined by the plumbing after the header.

- But anything's possible isn't it ?

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I've heard a few different header equipped cars. The Belangers do sound a little different than the 5 into 1 headers. Bellangers aren't a standard 5 into 1. They all sound great.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Also, keep in mind what your future upgrade plans are. The Henn./TNT or B&B headers are going to be the best with the S/C. The Belangers work very well with the N/A cars due to the "pickle" in the collector. The pickle becomes a obstruction with the amount of airflow if a S/C is installed. It can be cutout though

 

[twinturbo3150]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Also, keep in mind what your future upgrade plans are. The Henn./TNT or B&B headers are going to be the best with the S/C. The Belangers work very well with the N/A cars due to the "pickle" in the collector. The pickle becomes a obstruction with the amount of airflow if a S/C is installed. It can be cutout though

I didnt know belangers came with a pickle, dill or Kosher?

 

[SSSSE YA]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

SVS headers are one of the best..

 

[Knight Viper]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Belanger headers are one if not the only one who match the D port our heads share but I will agree SVS does make an awesome header. Why do the Belanger have a restrictive "pickle"?

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

My 2 cents after working on this issue for way, way too long. Hope this helps.

Cat Back.
1. You are louder with just the Corsa.
2. You will have a higher note, a more "technical metallic, racing" sound.
3. You have taken out as much resonanace as possible with a cat back.
4. You could be considerably louder with other cat backs.
5. You could have a deeper rumble with other cat backs.
6. You are not too loud at idle and cruise. You are reasonably loud at WOT.
7. Somewhat cooler sills.

H-F Cat with Corsa
1. You are much louder than with a Corsa alone.
2. You are less so with a 2 1/2 over a 3" high flo (3" stongly recommended).
3. You are less so with a ceramic hi flo over a metal substrate.
4. A high flo cat with the Corsa is a reasonably louder at idle and cruise.
5. At WOT, the unit is now quite loud.
6. At idle and cruise, slight increase in interior resonance.
7. There will be an increase in interior resonance at WOT.
8. Cool sills.

Header with H-F cat and Corsa
1. You are now very loud.
2. You now have considerably more interior resonance at WOT and cruise.
3. You are committed to 3" cats.
4. Some headers are easier to install (one piece vs build ups)
5. To my research, you are now so loud that there is NO difference in sound
between various headers.

Consider building out all but your header first, then see if you need it to be louder or require more HP. my 2 cents.

 

[GTSnake]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I've had both B&B and Belanger with the same cats and cat back. The Belangers with the pickle sound smoother over the entire rev band. The B&B are slightly louder with more resonance.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Belanger headers are one if not the only one who match the D port our heads share but I will agree SVS does make an awesome header. Why do the Belanger have a restrictive "pickle"?

Better airflow on N/A cars(a kind of venturi effect).

 

[FE 065]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

..You have taken out as much resonance as possible with a cat back


For as-delivered aftermarket cat backs perhaps. I still say squeeze a couple fat mufflers under the back, like these 6" OD Dynomax's, and they'll do wonders for drone and noise.

You must be registered for see images

It's all about how much silencing material is working for you.


Note: Two 6"OD mufflers wouldn't have fit under there side by side keeping the inlet pipe(s) OE center to center spacing if I hadn't massaged them a bit where they meet.

 

[ViperJoe]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

It has been said here at one time that the Belangers sound different due to them being constructed of coated mild steel versus stainless steel.

Also the realized performance benefit of headers per dollar spent on a n/a puff can also be debated

 

[JonB]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Have you ever looked at a Jet Engine, with that BIG CONE in the middle?
OBVIOUS to anyone that that Cone (pickle) MUST be restrictive, right?
Why would anyone wanting max airflow (especially at 35,000 feet) stick a big, restrictive CONE in there?

WRONG !! That cone ensures faster airflow within and along the cylindrical tube (can) and results in greater CFM airflow. It does NOT adversely "interfere" with forced air induction, as proven by that jet engine.
It provides a POSITIVE interference, in fact.

Consider: sticking a ROUND tube over a squared-off D-port creates TURBULENCE and cyclonic backflow and whine. Choose D-PORT HEADERS esp with forced air.

FLASH: Belanger has told PartsRack that he will be HAPPY to delete the labor-intensive pickle, at NO COST, for any PartsRack customer who feels they do NOT want it. No Problem to delete it.

PS: -Stainless operates hotter, and retains heat longer.
-Aluminized Steel runs COOLER, and cools down faster. (ask a pit crew!)
-Belanger further includes Jet Hot coating inside & out, no extra cost.
(Not an OPTION on other brands) Coolness = kinder on components and feet.
- Alumanized vibrates a much lower frequency than Stainless. Deeper Tone.
- MUSCLE CARS sould like that because of ALUMANIZED STEEL, no stainless.
- D-port matched 1.75"primary blends to a round primary, NO TURBULENCE.
That and more....

P.S. PartsRack is a WD for B+B as well, and we are happy to provide those great headers if they are your first choice. But the Belanger facts remain.

 

[sparty116]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I didn't see this post before I posted, but here is a link to my viper with Bellanger headers, no cats, Corsa.

Link

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I have almost 60,000 miles and 6 years on my Belanger headers and aluminized steel exhaust. Most reading this will never see that many miles on whatever system they buy. I have never run heat shields with them and never had any overheating / burning up problems with any component in the engine bay. Stock plug wires go 30K miles with no extra booties. I have never had to adjust any component of the system. It installed like a glove. I did have to replace the Walker Dynomax Race Bullet mufflers at 32,000 miles or so. For $40 bucks each....not a problem. Our car gets run pretty hard. .... All that being said, I just don't get what the big deal is with stainless. I see no advantage to it at all for the reasons detailed above by Jon B.

I have posted this before, but here is a full Belanger set up clip from 0-100 or so recorded with a little Garmin IQ3600 palm pilot thing in 2005. I am a 1/4 mile away when I let off ...sounds like I'm right there. I've yet to hear a better sounding system than the full Belanger. Good speakers really enhance this sound. As for the power gain--maybe 30 HP. Some would say not worth the money. Some might say other systems will give you another 10 HP. Except for bragging rights--noboby can feel 10 HP in a 500 HP car. Our car sounds just like I want it to. The pickle works! That makes the expense worth it to me.

Belangers

Steve

 

[Bo knows]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I understand that the pickle works in the na cars but I am still not clear on if it's a help or hinder in sc cars. Anybody know for sure?

Bo don't know

 

[wastntim]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Some great posts on the topic. The video clip is exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Have you ever looked at a Jet Engine, with that BIG CONE in the middle?
OBVIOUS to anyone that that Cone (pickle) MUST be restrictive, right?
Why would anyone wanting max airflow (especially at 35,000 feet) stick a big, restrictive CONE in there?

WRONG !! That cone ensures faster airflow within and along the cylindrical tube (can) and results in greater CFM airflow. It does NOT adversely "interfere" with forced air induction, as proven by that jet engine.
It provides a POSITIVE interference, in fact.

Consider: sticking a ROUND tube over a squared-off D-port creates TURBULENCE and cyclonic backflow and whine. Choose D-PORT HEADERS esp with forced air.

FLASH: Belanger has told PartsRack that he will be HAPPY to delete the labor-intensive pickle, at NO COST, for any PartsRack customer who feels they do NOT want it. No Problem to delete it.

PS: -Stainless operates hotter, and retains heat longer.
-Aluminized Steel runs COOLER, and cools down faster. (ask a pit crew!)
-Belanger further includes Jet Hot coating inside & out, no extra cost.
(Not an OPTION on other brands) Coolness = kinder on components and feet.
- Alumanized vibrates a much lower frequency than Stainless. Deeper Tone.
- MUSCLE CARS sould like that because of ALUMANIZED STEEL, no stainless.
- D-port matched 1.75"primary blends to a round primary, NO TURBULENCE.
That and more....

P.S. PartsRack is a WD for B+B as well, and we are happy to provide those great headers if they are your first choice. But the Belanger facts remain.

Hey JonB,
Are we taking about the mig-21:

You must be registered for see images attach

Or the F16 Strike Eagle:

You must be registered for see images

J/K

Actually, here is one of the rare times I will have a gentlemans disagreement with JonB. Again, my contention is that the Belanger "pickle" will cause a slowdown in airflow on Supercharged/big NOS/TX WHOS YOUR DADDY's All motor engine. On relatively stock/semi stock engines I believe the pickle does help to evacuate the exhaust, BUT this is simple fluid dynamics. When your taking about doubling the amount of airflow by using a super charger etc., it will become an impedance. Norma did a back to back dyno test with some Belangers vs. H M S headers and gained 40HP on his 99 RT-10 LEGENDARY LINGENFELTER-WORLDS FASTEST ALL MOTOR ONLY car back in June of 2005. Ths gain was flywheel HP.

I don't want this to be consrude as a Belanger header bash, because they are a damn good header. I am only stating that when moving up to FI/big NOS shot/big motor, you might want to consider having the "pickle" removed. The only way to absolutely prove this "theory" is to do a back to back dyno run on a FI car with Balengers. Here is his dyno sheet:

http://www.viper alley.com/gallery/data/500/norm_dyno.jpg

P.S. since the photo gallery doesn't work here, I had to link it from the Alley. So push the link together to see the dyno sheet.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I understand that the pickle works in the na cars but I am still not clear on if it's a help or hinder in sc cars. Anybody know for sure?

Bo don't know

Here is the dyno sheet from our Belanger header/ hi flow cats / 3" Corsa exhaust 2001 ACR. This car was tuned on this dyno in 2003 and never touched since..or until we got it in late August. I upgraded the VEC2 to be able to log and bought a WB kit. The numbers on this sheet are excellent I think, for a 5 pound Roe. 570 pounds to the back wheels at 2500 RPM or so. Here's a bigger surprise...when I ran my first log I discovered the below numbers were achieved with the AFR running high 9s to mid 10s..............waaaay rich. Anything under 11 AFR is leaving noticeable power on the table. In other words, there's more to get out of this car next spring when I finish tuning it on the street. I would say the Belanger pickle is working just fine for a 5 pound twin screw blower. This may not hold true for higher boosted cars. I would also add that our 2000 full Belanger 5 pound Roe car, tuned to 11.5 in 3rd gear at WOT, feels stronger than 2001 ACR. Although that's kind of hard to tell because the effective gear ratio for the 2001 car is 2:92 as opposed to 3:45s in the 2000. Neither car will likely ever see a dyno again as I don't feel the need to know worth the 400-500 mile drive to get to one. The new VEC3s have now enabled the HP/TQ functions my VEC2s came with. I'm hoping to get them both upgraded by spring.

Steve

 

[FE 065]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Somewhere in the back to back comparo, the Tri Y vs 5 into 1 factor would have to be considered as a variable.

But I'm sure high output engines have different requirements than mildly tuned engines.

If that big LPE motor picked up HP with header change, it probably said more about the brand than the pickle..but odd things can happen

Byron Hines used to run a pickle-type device in his Pro Stock motorcycles..don't know how big it was though..

 

[radta7]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

99 RT/10 the bottom picture is a F-14 tomcat load with duel sidewinders, sparrows and 4 Aim-54 Pheonix AAM's on the belly.


I assume you are kidding about the lower name...

 

[ViperJoe]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

That picture is of an F-14 Tomcat

The Strike Eagle is an F-FIFTEEN (F-15E) not F-16

At least you know your Russian aircraft!

Or the F16 Strike Eagle:

You must be registered for see images

 

[99 R/T 10]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Sorry Guys, I knew it was an F-15, miss typed it and never caught it until now. I would edit it, but there isn't any edit buttom to be found

 

[ViperJoe]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

Not to hijack, but.......

LOL.........you need to get that typing finger over to Chuck Tator.......the picture is an F-FOURTEEN. F-14 Tomcat

F-15 Eagle no-where to be found

F-16 VIPER like in Dodge Viper is our closest breathern in namesake in the fighter jet world (sorry but I'm a military jet nut too)

And the edit button is right there by the reply buttons but disappears after a set time

Sorry Guys, I knew it was an F-15, miss typed it and never caught it until now. I would edit it, but there isn't any edit buttom to be found

 

[FE 065]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I've got a set of used Belangers on the way-just in case I need them. (?)

Looking at photos of Belangers, I see that apparently that brand doesn't pay much attention to sequencing the primary pipes as they come into the collectors on each side in a rotational firing pattern. As I've noticed with other brands of headers offered for Vipers.

Meaning having each cylinder bank's header primary tubing enter the collector per firing order for that bank, rather than just arranged by cylinder progression front to back, next to each other in the collector.

Or said another way, to end up with one primary next to one that's just fired on a bank, rather than having another tube in between them, or worse in the other sub-collector on the Belangers.

Something like a Gatling gun effect visually.


On the Belangers, I count what seems to be 3 examples per side of the rotational order jumping back and forth across the two 3 into 1 and 2 into 1 collectors ahead of the final collector.

For example the passenger side fires in this order: 10 4 6 8 2, but the primary pipes have cylinder #10 in a different sub-collector than cylinder #4, #4 IS next to #6, but the next firing, #8, jumps to other sub-collector, then jumps back again to the 3 into 1 collector for the cyl #2 firing.

You'd have to have at least one firing sequence out of sync per side with a Tri Y header's dual sub-collectors on each side, but there seems to be 3 per side. 5 into 1 headers though only have one collector per side.

I was going to ask a header builder about that when I order some exhaust pipe flanges soon, but after doing a quick internet search, it seems that there is indeed something to arranging the primaries per their firing order on that bank.


Arranging the tubes to fire rotationally adds to the scavenging capabilities. The exhaust gas exiting one tube, passing across the opening of the tube directly beside it, creates more suction on that tube than it would on a tube on the opposite side of the collector. For example.

A lack of space under a Viper may be a factor. Or, maybe once an engine's running, the firing sequence doesn't have to be thought of starting with the front cylinder on each side, since it's turning over more than once, - which might throw off the sequence count..

I just thought I'd add what I've been taking a look at to this header conversation. There seems to be considerable search results on the subject, with some healthy HP gains claimed.

FWIW

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

My Vote: Hennass/B&B (FYI:same damn header) (Why you ask? Because Henass had B&B make them for him, and then they cloned it, and called it a B&B.

Next, Highflow cats from Random Technology (Metal Substrate, for all out best flow/least restriction)

Next, Random Tech Cat back. (Cheapest and best sounding in my opinion).

Good luck !!

Jon

PS. Since Mike aka 99 rt/10 is in the military, and flies those little bugs called choppers, I'll go ahead and give him credit for actually knowing what the hell he is talking about with Jets, and excuse his "disfuctional" finger. (as it obviously matches his brain).

 

[GTSPOWERED]

Re: Bellanger vs. the \"other\" headers

I went to the Detroit auto show this Saturday to see the new Vipers. There was the new 675 hp viper motor on a stand with a set of Belanger headers on it. That said everything to me.