Better than Caldwell?!?

[treynor]

From various discussions on this board and with local Viper tech's, I had formed the assumption that Caldwell was first among equals when it came to Viper engine modifications -- they did the best work, and they charged some of the highest prices. In particular, I had heard that their head porting work was the reference standard by which all others were judged. You can thus imagine my surprise when I got the flow numbers for my soon-to-be-installed Hennessey heads and they were better than the Caldwell-ported flow numbers posted in the Viper board FAQ:

Valve Stock Caldwell Hennessey
Lift(") Intake Exhaust Intake Exhaust Intake Exhaust
0.10 61 54 61 59 62 54
0.20 118 115 125 116 122 127
0.30 167 155 178 170 179 179
0.40 203 180 214 204 228 200
0.50 229 185 247 210 261 209
0.60 242 187 270 214 274 214
0.70 n/a n/a n/a n/a 282 217

Suffice to say I'm very much looking forward to some dyno and dragstrip figures when these heads are installed in early June! In the meantime, thumbs up to Hennessey & team for a great porting job.

 

[Martin D]

Ben,

That is not a surprise to me. I can tell you the Venom 650 heads I got from HMS were MACK DADDY!!! They were awesome. They were on the very ragged edge for performance. You will make huge power with those heads and the stock cam. I cant wait to see your RWHP numbers,

Regards,

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Better than Caldwell? Better at what? Better than Caldwell endurance Road Racing engines? I think NOT! But if you think the other tuners build better engine than Caldwell, I guess Chrysler/ORECA must have missed something? How many Vipers raced in the FIA series, ALMS, Speedvision series with the tuner who you think makes a better engine? How many races have they won? I hope you enjoy your high flow heads, but to slam Caldwell has ZERO basis. Their engines have won 3 Le Mans races, ALMS series, FIA series, over all winner at the Daytona 24 hour race in 2000. Why slam the proven best endurance Viper engine builder? Have you inquired with CDI to determine their flow options? CDI builds engines for specific racing applications, the heads are only a part of a system! Let me know when any of your tuners have an engine dyno to verify the best performance of a performance package. How do they know what works best? Bigger is always Better, GOOD LUCK!

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[Martin D]

Fred,

I missed the slam on Caldwell. I also missed the statement that any tuner is better than Caldwell. I think Ben was merely stating a fact - that the HMS heads had better flow than he expected - and better than the posted imformation in regards to Caldwell. I doubt any one on this board thinks that anything Caldwell has done is less than spectacular. They have been put in the position of reference. Since they are the Standard, why not report that the HMS heads had good flow numbers. I for one applaud the information in the post. Good job Ben.

Regards,

 

[getbit]

Relax Fred. We all know Caldwell at least by accomplishments and reputation. Incredible people! I agree it was informative to see info in regards to the standard setting Caldwell equipment and others.

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[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I thought of it as a compliment to Caldwell. Being held as the "first among equals" is a compliment. It's like people bragging about beating a Viper.

 

[99t1]

Fred is right...endurance is the key. Any bubba can dope up a motor for a short fast run. Can't win unless you finish. CDI has and will continue to bring Vipers to the podium.

 

[HouseofSpeed]

FRED....I thought we had this discussion awhile back....you stay out of the engine business and we will all be better for it. Do you think Caldwell is the originator of the part(s)???? Hell, they get their castings from Buddy Bar just like DC does....and they buy their rocker arms from T&D just like DC does....and we can build a motor as good, if not better, than Caldwell.

Not to toot our collective horns, but the engine building experience at HMS is WAY DEEP. The current players have been responsible for everything from ASA motors to Pro Stock and Stock Eliminator to Silver Crown. Caldwell was in the right place at the right time, Ed Pink could have done the same work...as could Wegner, Chapman, et al. If you don't recognize those names....I'll give you a clue....THEY DON"T WORK FOR CDI AND THEY MAKE CARS GO FAST FOR EXTENDED PERIODS OF TIME. We at HMS can do the same thing....chances are you could come closer to affording one of our setups than you could a similar package at Caldwell.

EASE UP ON THE CALDWELL PROTEIN SHAKES...they are distorting reality for you Fred.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Kyle, I like your emotion! Do not worry I am not after your job! Nor do I want to be a tuner! Congrats on getting a lot of good press for your big motors and fast Vipers. My opinion only, if I want a rock solid Viper engine I would consider Caldwell. They have a proven record. When someone else can produce the same winning results as CDI, then I will be glad to congratulate them for a job well done.

There are 4 Vipers entered at Le Mans, as well as many other cars. Caldwell engines are in at least 1 Viper (I think the other 3 Vipers are also powered by CDI engines) and 3 LMP cars.

Any other Viper tuners powering Le Mans rides?

I do like value for my $$$ and should I be fortunate to have the spare cash I would be happy to spend it with CDI, EMI, Dan Cragin, all relatively close to home and all with happy customers.

Martin, The topic is "Better than Caldwell"

Caldwell does not post on this board. So when someone comments "Better than Caldwell" I want to make sure the owners who do not know all the tuner's, at least know who is on first!

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Hi Ben, thanks for your comments. I over reacted to the "Better than Caldwell" topic. There are many options to increase the Vipers performance which is great for the Viper Nation. I also like to share information. I discussed the flow numbers with Caldwell and the answer easy, what do you want, Max. HP little consideration for endurance (like a motor for drag racing), that is taken apart daily or between runs, a sprint motor for qualification and short races or an endurance motor. It is nice to have so many choices that are relatively good and with various cost for something similar. I am not a drag racer or I would join you some wed. at Sears to help hold up the Viper image. That might be a good event for the 1/4 mile guys in the area. If we get a good turn out at the June 22-24 zone event, perhaps we could get them to stick around and show their stuff at the Sears points 1/4 strip. It would be fun to watch the tuners show their stuff.

 

[David Jenkins]

Ben, are you building an endurance engine for sustained high rpm? Didn't think so. Guys, get your heads from whoever you TRUST and can afford. For some people, they just have to have a set of small chamber, big ti valve and spring heads for 10k. Some guys just want a good top end "tune up" for 3-5k. Many engine guys do Viper heads, more then most people realize. Some engine builders have more experience than others with Vipers. There are engine builders out there that may have never touched a Viper head, and I would have no problem with them working a set of heads for me. Kyle is right boys. Do you think Eicke, Nickens, Leonard, Maskin could make a Viper head flow?hhhhhmmmmmm....I think some god, er...a..guy named Lingenfelter has thrown his hat in too.Everyone knows the "Johns" (caldwell and hennessy) stuff works. It's proven. Go with your gut and hope you get what you expect. One last little tid bit....take a look at Bronston's stuff at BPE/Mitech under vendors section...the secret is out!!!dj

 

[treynor]

Fred -- no CDI slam at all intended nor (by my read) implied in my original post. By all accounts they do top-notch work, although they're expensive (I was quoted $8,000 for head porting & valves/springs/retainers). The point of my post was twofold:
(a) present empirical data on flow for two different tuners, and
(b) give Hennessey credit where that credit was clearly due.

More generally, as many of you know I've been methodically upgrading my Viper and testing after each round of upgrades to provide some useful data points to the Viper community. I report both the welcome news (like these flow numbers) as well as the unwelcome (a 16HP peak gain on my '01 when headers & catback were added). I trust that, although I may ruffle some feathers with the data I report, on the whole the information I'm providing is a net positive to other board members and will help guide others who are contemplating proceeding down the modification path.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Keep ruffling those feathers Ben, the info you provide has been very helful to me personally.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Agree many places can do head work and the result will be unknown. And many tuners do head work and make more HP. But to say "Better than Caldwell" is not correct in my opinion and I do understand that in this case it makes Caldwell the standard company to be measured against. However I do not feel that posting "Better than Caldwell" is correct! Caldwell is not on this board to comment and I will make sure that anyone who is not familiar with Caldwell and the other tuners get the straight story. If you check my posting history, I do not use tuner names with negative post. If the truth be known Caldwell would likely care less about the post. They are in a different league, building endurance race engines.

 

[treynor]

Disagree. The performance improvements I and others have obtained using aftermarket components are quite substantial, and have been repeatedly documented. Part of the purpose of testing and reporting objective results is to allow consumers (in this case other Viper owners) to decide whether the actual performance gains are worth the price of admission.

Flow numbers are interesting because they are suggestive of the degree of performance improvement one can expect from swapping heads. Obviously, the definitive data points will come when these heads are installed and the car is re-dyno'd and re-run at the dragstrip. However, based on the flow numbers obtained, I have every reason to believe I'll see a 12-15% horsepower gain with the Hennessey Power Pak installed. 50-60 extra RWHP would be, if you'll pardon my saying so, "No BS"