Borla Cat Back - No Improvement

[Tom Welch]

Frank,

I for one would have to disagree with your statements completely.

I have found viper upgrade shoppers to be very well informed. Most seek information from several sources before making a purchase. There are those though(as there are in any environment)that who just want to "keep up with the Jones's" and have what the next guy does based on product brand recognition not performance.

To install just a cat back exhaust on any vehicle while not removing the cats or changing out the exhuast manifold is a waste of time. You sir, have wasted your 75 bucks! You have gained nothing but a silly sounding car at best.

I offer a guaranteed 50+ horsepower bolt on exhaust system for the viper, and have dozens and dozens of satisfied customers cruising the highways and race tracks today who would love to demonstrate their perfromance to you, side by side..

My suggestion for you would be, don't line up along side of a viper with a decent exhuast system, because you will loose! not to mention sound like a honda, and you won't have enough excuses to make up for it.

tom
Http://btrviper.com


"If we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs, IF we had some eggs!"

 

[FRANK]

Tom,

I'd feel better losing 75 bucks than losing over 1,500 bucks! As far as a Viper sounding like a Honda...it does with the stock mufflers. Run a straight pipe instead of a muffler and you have a great sound. Remove the cats too and now you're running open headers...awesome sound and better performance. Disagree all you want...

For what people are spending on headers and exhaust systems they should just get your N20 kit and get their Vipers into the 10's. I for one use N20 on my Dodge Dart with a 440 and have no problem using it. I am a little worried about using it on a stick shift with a motor that will cost roughly $10,000 if I put a rod through the block...Nitrous is great bang for the buck...as long as the bang isn't a piston going sideways in the block!

 

[Ulysses]

Larry, Ben

Is this a 3" ID cat back exhaust. Snake Oyl claims that adding a 3" catback exhaust to a stock system can actually cause you to lose HP. Their theory is that the gases that pass from the smaller stock exhaust into the larger catback exhaust will lose velocity. The physics behind this is that at the intersection from big to small, there will be turbulance, thus hindering the expulsion of exhaust gas.

 

[John N]

Tom & Frank,

Don't be so arrogant about it. People do things for different reasons. Me, I had my rear panels and lenses pitted by crap from the stock GTS exhaust system, pitted so bad that the entire rear-end was repainted under warranty with all new lenses provided as well. I now have a TNT cat-back system that Roy and Joe made to stick out about 2" further than the stock pipes. This was far enough to get the exhaust out of the turbulence zone that just pulled it back onto the car. Result = no more pitting and I shouldn't need to worry about constant paint jobs. Frank, you're happy with your $75 special and many others of us are happy with our systems, doesn't make us suckers any more than it makes you cheap.

And Tom, no HP increase with only a cat-back system with stock cats??? Here are the dyno results from my '97 GTS before and after the TNT cat-back. Car has K&N's and smooth tubes, but is otherwise stock. I gained 25 RWHP and 35 ft-lbs of torque from 4000-4500 RPM, that's a little more than nothing I'd say!!

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[Supercharged Vipermad]

Larry, I've heard the same thing that Ulysses is talking about... that going from the 2.5 inch to 3.0 inch isn't Kosher. I just installed a cheap 2.5 inch dual exhaust (eliminating the rr muffler) for $125 (incl. a $25 tip) and it sounds great on my 98 GTS. It "feels" more responsive and I can better hear the motor. The sound is really good & I saved about 20lbs! My only regret is that I didn't use a place w/a mandrel pipe bender.

 

[Tom Welch]

John N.,

Not to be arrogant, by no means, but your dyno numbers show gains of only 13 hp and 20 ft/lbs torque, although it is a little hard to read the numbers at the bottom of the page. Ok numbers for that but you could triple that number with headers.

In any event Id bet you shopped around a little or at least chose your tuner based upon name recognition, before stopping by the local muffler shop for the latest and greatest in viper performance exhaust.

I can't tell you how many swing sets that i could make from the home made exhaust systems that I have changed out on vipers that didn't work, not to mention didn't sound good.

It is your choice to go with just a Cat Back, they are fine, Heck i sell them! But Its like Ive always said, the exhaust manifolds and cats on these cars are like having Arnold Schwarzenegger trying to fight while breathing through a soda straw!

I can't help being a little arrogant now and then, but then again, I spent the extra money and have an exhaust that works. I wish i knew how to post a dyno sheet. My car with NO smooth tubes or K&N's, just headers and exhaust on the stock 97 gts made 479 rwhp at 522 ft/lbs torque.

tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[Ben Gratt]

Larry,

I installed the Borla Cat-back on my 2000 GTS and also showed no improvement whatsoever. I didn't go to the track, but my car dynoed 412 rwhp with just smooth tubes, and 409 rwhp with the smooth tubes and the Borla Cat-back. I was also pretty disappointed, but I've heard that if you install the headers, then you will realize some of the gain from the cat-back system (I'm not sure if this is correct).

What were the weather conditions like on the two days you went to the track? You actually lost almost 1 mph in trap speed with the Borla's, so that would really equate to about 10 less hp. Most likely, that would be due to poorer weather conditions.

Ben Gratt.

 

[FRANK]

Actualy, I find your sitation funny. Again, someone decides to pay through the nose for an exhaust system. Instead of treating the Viper like any other hot rod and installing a bullet glasspack or a straight pipe for under $75...you decided to spend big bucks and get roasted. I get the feeling that many novices on this board must feel that you have to spend $$$ to get performance results. Not so. Old hot rod tricks can be applied to have gains.

Does your sitution surprise me? No.

Would I spend $500 on a new cat back? No

Would I spend $1,500 on a new cat back? HA HA HA


Guys, wake up and smell the coffee. Please...you are making other rich through your costly mistakes. Expensive isn't always better.

 

[FRANK]

Yeah Ben, go out and spend another 2,000 for their headers..."maybe then" you'll see a gain. LOL

Gluttons for punishment...Viper guys (many of them) fail to amaze me...

And if the headers don't improve your 1/4 mile times, maybe it is because you need some more Borla products installed...

 

[John N]

Tom,

Hey there, me again. Guess my other post sounded a little strong, but I really think it is an important point that not everyone wants the exact same thing at the same time. I am fully aware that I could have picked up more power with headers, hi-flow cats, etc., that wasn't the main point of my installation. I would rather pay more money for a good cat-back and gain protection for paint on the rear of my car, better sound, and more power as opposed to paying $200 for some exhaust tips that also would keep the rear clean but provide no other benefit. Yeah, I could have bought a complete exhaust for more money, but that incremental money would buy me more speed if spent on a set of Hoosiers rather than on the exhaust. See, many people more spend time on road courses than on drag strips. In addition to that, some of us have to buy stuff for our Snakes a little at a time (the accountant, er wife you know).

Regarding the dyno results. The PEAK rear wheel numbers went from 426.9 HP and 463.9 ft-lbs to 438.8 HP and 483.3 ft-lbs. The 25 HP and 35 ft-lb numbers refer to the 4000-4500 RPM range, as noted in my earlier post. Personally, I spend a lot more time between 4000-4500 RPM than I do at 5500 RPM (street and road course vs. drag strip, remember).

In the end, I spent a little less money and have an exhaust system that works too. Hell, I think the stock exhaust works fine too after seeing a 100% totally stock GTS run 1:57's at TWS during Viper Days (that's a 2.9 mile road course).

Different strokes for different folks.....

 

[Tom Welch]

Daemon,

I have never seen the torque curve of a Ford Fiesta, but the torque curve on most viper runs that I have seen(22 different vipers in one day on the same dyno a few months ago) all look similiar. They climb then peak briefly at around 3700 rpm then climb again until reaching final peak at about 4400 rpm. Remember that all(no 2 dynos that i have ever seen)dynos are not equal, and I only really use them as a basic tuning tool. REAL Rear wheel horsepower is calculated by factoring your car's weight with driver against the TRAP SPEED(miles per hour) of a 1/4 mile run. This is the only true way of determining your actual power to the pavement.

The bottom line in all of this is that folks who own vipers(and other exotics for that matter) want originality, an exhaust that may sound great to me might offend the next guy, and there aren't many of us that can really feel the 1% difference in power generated by a car with 450 hp or 430 hp.

John,

Don't sweat the too strong thing, speak your mind, thats the way I like it!

tom
Http://btrviper.com

Stock 97 GTS with Headers and Exhaust only!