Crackpot attacks VCA president Bob Carroll

SRT10

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In the Letters section of Hemmings Muscle Machines magazine VCA prez Bob Carroll writes this letter...

Viper strikes nerve
George Mattar's recent column about the "New Golden Age of Muscle" ("NGAM") is right on. I easily identified with his images of driving in the 1960s with my family and identifying/studying passing vehicles. I do have one significant footnote. I believe the NGAM is already here and owes its resurgence to one word: VIPER. Our current plentiful crop of super high-performance cars is a direct result of the stimulation of a long-dormant muscle car demographic spawned primarily by a small group of courageous execs and engineers at Dodge who shocked the auto industry with the late 1980s roll-out of the raw and uncompromising Viper. History shows that, despite production of hundreds of thousands of 'Vettes, GM's icon, the only survivor of the 1960s muscle era, could not, as hard as it tried, rekindle the muscle era. Then came Viper. I would also add that, in addition to stimulating the entire performance car industry, it also kicked butt on every major racetrack it competed. Sure, bring on the Challenger and Camaro, but I think we all owe a little gratitude to that first lonely snake. Great article, George!

Bob Carroll
National President
Viper Club of America

Bob must have stuck a nerve because the VP of the Turbo Six Club has this response...

Turbo strikes back
I'm a recent subscriber to your magazine and would like to give you guys major props for your unbiased and well-balanced publication. You do an excellent job of representing all marques from Detroit. While on the subject of unbiased, I wish to point out and respond to a recent response by the Viper Club national president that Vipers are responsible for the recent resurgence called "New Golden Age of Muscle" (NGAM). It is true that we are in the midst of a muscle car era right now. But I must set the record straight for this man blinded by pride.

I find his assertion absolutely arrogant and ignorant of recent history. He shows his complete bias with statements like "I believe that the NGAM is already here and owes its resurgence to one word: Viper." Let me clarify a few points (facts): He believes the Viper is a muscle car. Wrong, it is a sports car, just like the Corvette and the Shelby Cobra, and is not included in the conversation about muscle cars, which are commonly sedans or pony cars.

Most importantly, he should refer back to the early 1980s, when Chrysler and Dodge were a joke and almost extinct and remember that it was the Ford Mustang and its new 5.0L that sparked the gradual escalation through the 1980s and '90s to today. He conveniently forgets the 5.0L Mustangs, 5.7L IROCs, Grand Nationals and Turbo Trans Ams of the 1980s, as well as the LT1 and LS1 F-bodies of the '90s, and the 4.6L Mustangs. These cars and their affordable (by comparison) prices are what sparked the new horsepower wars that prompted Dodge to try to knock the Corvette off its perch.

Anyone that asserts that there was nothing prior to the Viper is a fool and ignorant of history. I'm a former Ford owner and current GN driver who will gladly stack my pre-Viper-era G-body up against his much-hyped Viper and prove to him there was muscle prior to the introduction of his Viper.

Shame on him for embarrassing his National Club by writing such blatant BS.

The common man can't afford $60k for a fancy sports car. The muscle car market has always been powered by common men with affordable muscle cars. That's why we enjoy putting rich men and their expensive toys in their place with cars that are a third of the price. The pain in their faces is priceless! Long live the lowly muscle car!

Tim Pryor, VP Turbo Six Club
Louisville, Kentucky


Funny thing is Tim Pryor says that the Viper and Corvette "aren't muscle cars but are sports cars" yet in a magazine called Hemmings Muscle Machines there were 9 different articles written on the Viper and Corvette through the months:lmao:

Take a chill pill Pryor :chillpill: and have fun with your little club:rolleyes:
 

V10SpeedLuvr

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"These cars and their affordable (by comparison) prices are what sparked the new horsepower wars that prompted Dodge to try to knock the Corvette off its perch."

TRY??????????????? :lmao: :rolaugh: :D

Mission accomplished!
 

AFL in NJ

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Hi Chad,

I agree, when I think of the "Muscle car" era, I think of all types, including the Vette (which also is a sports car) with a 427, it was a muscle car, meant to dominate the drag strips.

Yes, the Buick GN, Mustang are still muscle cars, but the horsepower war that we are enjoying was started by the Viper.....it raised the bar to a new level and everyone has been trying to knock our model off in one way or another.

The Viper is surely a muscle car, so Bob was exactly right (sorry Tim Pryor).....big engine, tons of power and it can dominate the drag strip like nothing out there!

Regards,
Aaron
 

Vypr Phil

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So let's see, which car had a 400 bhp in 1992, 450 bhp in the mid-90's, 510 bhp in 2003 and behold, 600bhp for 2008?

The Buick Grand National? ... NO!

Any Mustang? ... NO!!

Any F-body sled? ... NO!!!

Any Corvette? ... NO!!!!

While the Viper come out with over 500 bhp, the best the Mighty Corvette ZO6 could muster was 405 bhp, proudly displayed on the front fender emblem.

So, Mr Pryor, why don't you meet me at Willow Springs Raceway or Buttonwillow or Laguna Seca with any of the cars you enumerated in your list, and I will be pleased to show you why the Viper is "so much hyped": because none of "your" cars have adequate brakes or safe handling characteristics. Be interesting to see who will be put in their place.:2tu:

Frankly, there is more to life than the drag strip.

Also, I love this quote: "The muscle car market has always been powered by common men with affordable muscle cars". So true everytime I watch a Barrett-Jackson auction.......:lmao:
 

Tusc

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The recent Ford GT did have an under-rated 550, though they only did limited production.

The GN guy obviously never saw Bad Boys II... "Hate the game, not the playa!"
 

slaughterj

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The common man can't afford $60k for a fancy sports car. The muscle car market has always been powered by common men with affordable muscle cars. That's why we enjoy putting rich men and their expensive toys in their place with cars that are a third of the price. The pain in their faces is priceless! Long live the lowly muscle car!

Statements like this indicate he suffers from little pecker syndrome, trying to talk up in a derogatory fashion how his low little thing can step up to and compete with the big boys.
 

NK BREKR

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"These cars and their affordable (by comparison) prices are what sparked the new horsepower wars that prompted Dodge to try to knock the Corvette off its perch."

TRY??????????????? :lmao: :rolaugh: :D

Mission accomplished!


Amen Chad!

Try??? ***??? :smirk: :confused: Here's a fact: VIPER kicking major 'vette ass since 1992 and finally took a breather in 2006, before emerging more letal than ever.:drive:
 

Limit

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He's trying to say mustangs and other girl cars with no horsepower and torque sparked today's horsepower race with cars hitting 500-600bhp?

HAHAHA!
 

handyman_321

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How would someone who belongs to the "turbo six club" know anything about muscle cars??? How many muscle car had stock turbos and how many of them had 6 cylinder engines???

Muscle cars had 396's, 426's, 427's, 440's, 454's etc.. they did not have 5 litres or turbo 6's...
 

Kmrumedy

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"The common man can't afford $60k for a fancy sports car. The muscle car market has always been powered by common men with affordable muscle cars...."

Well common man with a Viper here (saved up 6 years for mine)......This guy obviously hasn't looked at prices lately. With little research and about as much sense I just bought a 73 Challanger to fix up and build into a nice little muscle car. Finding out now it will cost me about another $25K - $30K to complete it......and I am not doing anything fancy!!??

What's an affordable muscle car these days?
 

plumcrazy

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im with Kmrumedy on this one. i saved up for a couple few years to buy mine cash. you dont need to buy a new one, used is fine and honestly its what i wanted anyways (98). the COMMON guy can afford one of these cars with a little "COMMON" sense and saving.

and is a new mustang GT or god forbid the GT500 a car the common guy can afford. heck, those are more than a used gen2 or most 3's anyhow. come'on......
 

viper GTS-R

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He's from Kentucky and uses words only shakespeare would use. Wait till he get's owned then he'll be screaming O! I am Fortune's fool.

--RS
 

Zan186

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lol this is definately a funny post.
First off a Viper is one of those cars that falls into many many different categories:
1) It is a muscle car - defined as big powerful engine with lot's of torque (400+ rwhp check)
2) It is a Sports car - usually a two seater with great handeling (check)
3) Exotic - a rare vehicle usually less than 10,000 on the road (11,500 made, but less than 10k on the road by now, check)
4) Collector's car - car that is predicted or currently will hold value and increase in value over time (its a given)
5) Chick Magnet/Status car - (yep)

What it is not: Race Car - (although some modify it to be one)
Import (unless you live out of North America
Ricer - (don't go there)

As for the article, yeah there were tons of Camero's, Mustangs, Trans Am's etc all over in the 1990's and the sales were so great that GM discontinued the Camero's and Trans AM.
Mustangs were ugly as can be as Ford tried to phase them out in the late 80's as they wanted to make the Probe their main sports attraction.

Nope I agree the Viper was probably the car in history that started the muscle car movement.
 

viperbilliam

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I think you guys (and gals?) are too biased. I believe Pryor is correct in that the muscle car started coming back in the early eighties as Detroit came to grips with the new emission/EPA standards with computer and materials technology. I appreciated the Mustang GT at the time but I bought the Firebirds/Camaros instead. This development and the market support allowed the Viper to be born and when it did, it brought the golden age up to a new unprecedented level.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Having been born in 1960 my entire 20s were during the 80s and there wasn't one single "common man's car" that lit me up during that entire pathetic decade. In fact, the 80s will go down in history as being the most dismal years for all Detroit iron not just "muscle cars." It is no wonder a six cylinder Buick and puny little Mustang were the highlights of the decade.
 

NHL2133

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It is no wonder a six cylinder Buick and puny little Mustang were the highlights of the decade.

Hey, the fox-body Mustang had a 5.0 with a huge 235hp in it's best versions. That's real muscle right there. :rolleyes: And if that wasn't enough you could get it with a 4 cylinder! I sure am glad that car launched the muscle car resurgence. :lmao:
 

GuitarSteve

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lol this is definately a funny post.
First off a Viper is one of those cars that falls into many many different categories:
1) It is a muscle car - defined as big powerful engine with lot's of torque (400+ rwhp check)
2) It is a Sports car - usually a two seater with great handeling (check)
3) Exotic - a rare vehicle usually less than 10,000 on the road (11,500 made, but less than 10k on the road by now, check)
4) Collector's car - car that is predicted or currently will hold value and increase in value over time (its a given)
5) Chick Magnet/Status car - (yep)

What it is not: Race Car - (although some modify it to be one)
Import (unless you live out of North America
Ricer - (don't go there)

As for the article, yeah there were tons of Camero's, Mustangs, Trans Am's etc all over in the 1990's and the sales were so great that GM discontinued the Camero's and Trans AM.
Mustangs were ugly as can be as Ford tried to phase them out in the late 80's as they wanted to make the Probe their main sports attraction.

Nope I agree the Viper was probably the car in history that started the muscle car movement.

Not to fully disagree, but I think many people will agree that the Viper is essentially a racing car in disguise. Viper packs enough of a bite to slay most road cars today. Stock for stock, putting it up against most other vehicles today (Vette, Ferrari, Porsche etc) the Viper still has the upper hand and will run circles around them.
 

MbnViper

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Viper compared to vettes and mustangs ? no disrespect here but the viper is in a different league and King of the Hill !

when you get confused buying a Porsche TT/GT2 or a 08 Viper ? or you take your Viper Keys instead of your lambo ! and polish and detail you viper more than your Ferrari ! and when you have a great community like this ! its for sure

"King of the Hill"
 

klamathpro

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Yeah, like anything from the 80's was considered a muscle car.

Check out this classic muscle car guys! This most definately led to reviving the muscle car era:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658533_1658527,00.html

Wow! 0-60 in 20 seconds! 85HP at the crank! That must be 65RWHP!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Iron_Duke_engine

And we can't forget the infamous Mustang GT from the 80's. In 1983, the Mustang GT received a 4-barrel carburetor and a new intake manifold, bringing power to 175 hp ! Wow!
 
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Cop Magnet

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I think both sides have a valid point, but only to a degree. The 80's Camaros and Mustangs were the "muscle cars" of their day. They kept alive an interest in performance and HP during lean times of emissions-choked performance. However, they did not spark the "resurgence" of an interest in upping the ante like the Viper did. Yes, the new Camaro and Mustang are interesting and will have huge HP numbers, but I don't think they owe that to their anemic 80's brethren. I think they achieved that despite them.

There's a commonality in all these cars, including the Viper: they hark back to the unrestricted HP and style of the 60's. The Viper was the first to do so, going back to the Shelby Cobra heritage with a modern twist in style. The new Shelbys are certainly not copying the 80's Fox chassis! The Camaro concept doesn't look like an 80's econo-box. And I sure as hell don't see anyone copying the GN with a nostalgic sigh. See the trend here? No "new" designs, just a retro look with modern performance. The only original new metal (or plastic) from the other Big Three might be the Corvette.

Maybe Mopar didn't make any big musclecars in the 80's. So what? When they did, they did it with style and upped the ante way past what the Ford and GM guys were doing. In that sense, yes, they sparked the resurgence of the new era of HP wars. That's what the article was about, not whether or not any so-called musclecars were around in the 80's.
 
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dodgefever

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Cop Magnet, Ditto. You sure saved me a lot of typing! The point of his article was that the new Viper breathed life back into an anemic muscle car industry. Up until the Viper, GM and Ford were content to hover around the 225 to 275 HP mark every year. Nope, we mopar nuts were not really in the game much, but he didn't claim we were. Now the real question is why the owners of those other makes are so insecure to be set off so easily?!
 

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