Gen 1 ... more power

[viper067]

Howdy,

Anyone have one of these systems installed?

Viper Cylinder Heads, Viper Performance Enhancement - Rolling Thunderz

Just wondering if it realistic to get a Gen1 NA engine up to 550 or 600+ hp without turbo so supercharger options. How would this type of mod be for reliability?

Of course this falls into the wish list category, but seems like it could be done over a winter downtime

 

[99 R/T 10]

Greg good cylinder heads in Houston is the only way to go. He can get that kind of power N/A, want his phone number?

Only thing unreliable on the Gen Is is the stock head gaskets, other than that, built proof..................

 

[plumcrazy]

call greg good 713-290-1103

 

[FastZilla]

Gen1 heads are different then Gen2 heads. Flow is a huge problem with Gen1 heads. 600hp N/A out of a Gen1 - I'd have to see it to believe it. Out of a Gen2 - no problem.

 

[georgethedog]

Want more power out of a Gen 1... paint it yellow!

 

[Paul Hawker]

Not only the heads. but think the Gen 1 intakes were a cork.

 

[0209 CLK]

Intersted to know as well since my headgaskets just went out so I'm looking to modify for some extra ponies..

 

[Viper4Christ]

Want more power out of a Gen 1... buy a Gen2!

Fixed, I was thinking the same thing myself.

 

[RTTTTed]

I think the heads can be upgraded to Gen 2 or 3s with a few extra parts. Call Greg Good to check on interchangability. I have a set of like new Gen 2 stock headers if interested - PM me.

The intake is restrictive, the heads are restrictive and the CAST IRON exhaust manifolds **** as well as weighing over 50#.

Although I never took a good look at a Gen 1 air intake I'd guess that's bad as the Gen 2s also have a hood opening for air. Suggest a Roe Racing Viper Performance Parts front fascia duct to get more air in front of and through the radiator (for more air intake).

You should notice that Rolling Thunderz site is using Brake hp and not RWHP, like most sites. Same money on a Roe supercharger and the Thunderz hp figures would be RWHP numbers. Gen 1 = 400bhp or 350rwhp. Gen 2 450bhp or 410rwhp stock.

Ted

 

[FastZilla]

RTTTTed is right - everyone selling speed is publishing crank Hp numbers.

Ted...cut us gen 1 guys some slack - stock Gen1 Hp is in the 375+ range...Stop lumping us in with the Vette crowd/numbers

I'm pretty modified and very close to being "maxed out" w/a Roe on a Gen 1 (w/o getting insane like Treesnake). 650hp on a Gen1 is expensive - 700hp on a Gen1 is stupid expensive and dangerous (with a Roe). Over 700hp - you're obsessed and don't give a flip. Again all with a Roe. You want to go Paxton or TT...game on!

My goal is 750 at the wheels with a roots & a Gen1 (no bottle, no temporary power adders). Now if I can secretly funnel money out of my bank acount w/o the boss knowing

PS: you guys pushing the limits (Treesnake) keep doing it - I'm reading your posts and plotting my own demise right along with you

 

[RTTTTed]

RTTTTed is right - everyone selling speed is publishing crank Hp numbers.

Ted...cut us gen 1 guys some slack - stock Gen1 Hp is in the 375+ range...Stop lumping us in with the Vette crowd/numbers


My goal is 750 at the wheels with a roots & a Gen1 (no bottle, no temporary power adders). Now if I can secretly funnel money out of my bank acount w/o the boss knowing

A roots blower??? You'll need a hoodscoop a mile high. I would like to go to a 3.4L Whipple Twinscrew one day. Sean used a larger blower on his Gen 3 SRT10 Truck kit. Problem is that the intake is on the top and none of it will fit under a Viper hood. A few inches of hood scoop would fix that though ...

Ahh well, one day when I have a few extra thousand bucks for a glass hood and a larger blower body I'll start to play. -might be awhile 'till I have too much money though.

Ted

 

[FastZilla]

Stop bursting my bubble....

I'm going to **** on my thumb in the corner....

...dreams can come true! ...freakin reality - it *****!

I did talk to Sean today. There a few tricks I can do to get me very close to 700. I'm afraid that may be the prictical limit - but with the 2.8L swap maybe a tad over 700....

I'm still optimistic

 

[99 R/T 10]

I have a set of Greg Good Gen I cylinder heads I am selling. Getting rid of all my Gen I stuff to focus ont he Gen II stuff. PM me if you're interested.

 

[TexasPettey]

Greg got my Gen1 heads flowing 305CFM intake side at a very reasonable price. Compare that with any of the other flow numbers from Gen2 heads. I think you'll see that the flow on the heads is close enough to make that type of power on a Gen1. Greg also did my intake to port match and hone out the Throttle Body openings to match 65mm TB's. Again, very reasonable price.

I'd also say that you will get a ton of advice from Greg about setups. Be sure to call him.

The issue with Gen1, I believe, is the compression ratio. Gen1 is lower to start with. So, even with the same CAM and good head flow numbers, you'll be a bit off. However, those are very realistic HP numbers. I'm over 500RWHP with a 708CAM and a 2.5" intake hose setup. I would think that the right CAM and some intake hose work would open up 550RWHP.

 

[FastZilla]

Greg got my Gen1 heads flowing 305CFM intake side at a very reasonable price. Compare that with any of the other flow numbers from Gen2 heads. I think you'll see that the flow on the heads is close enough to make that type of power on a Gen1. Greg also did my intake to port match and hone out the Throttle Body openings to match 65mm TB's.

I've got stock TBs - problem #1
I'm outta fuel at 5100rpm - problem #2
My heads were done at PBJ - would hate to have the heads reworked - anyone know what PBJs flow numbers are?
I've got a PBJ cam and without pulling it out and checking the L/D then I can only go off the sound that it's more aggressive than a 708 - no scientific data though.

My next step will be 70mm TBs (air box and tubes too) and dual fuel pumps. That should get me darn close to 700hp. When the 2.8L retrofit comes out...I hope that gets me close to 750.

I want to get into something like an AEM for some safety in the form of flow monitoring of the **** (incase I lose it the AME can pull timing and save the motor).

I've been told you (Petty) had a Roe at one time - where were you and with what mods. 750 is my goal (no bottles).

Viper067 - I'm not trying to hijack your thread. Im wanting more power too and am approaching the limit of a Roe Gen1 - w/o getting crazy. I hope this is helping some.

Here's where I'm at and with what - Dyno sheet attached.
Attached 3 sheets:
Max power seen while tuning (check out the A/F)
W/**** tune +2deg timing
W & W/O **** tunes that are in the car now.

I need fuel!!!

Roe Blower 10#
PBJ custom ported heads
PBJ custom ground cam(comp cams)
T&D 1.7 Roller Rockers
Roe hardened pushrods
TNT 1 3/4" 5 into 1 headers
Custom Evac system
Walbro 255 fuel pump
MSD boost a pump
Roe Water/**** kit
NGK Wideband

 

[99 R/T 10]

I believe that Accufab only maes 65MM for the Gen I cars. Here is a set you might use:

ViperAlley Classifieds - Accufab GEN1 Billet Throttle Bodies 65mm - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

 

[99 R/T 10]

I've got stock TBs - problem #1
I'm outta fuel at 5100rpm - problem #2
My heads were done at PBJ - would hate to have the heads reworked - anyone know what PBJs flow numbers are?
I've got a PBJ cam and without pulling it out and checking the L/D then I can only go off the sound that it's more aggressive than a 708 - no scientific data though.

My next step will be 70mm TBs (air box and tubes too) and dual fuel pumps. That should get me darn close to 700hp. When the 2.8L retrofit comes out...I hope that gets me close to 750.

I want to get into something like an AEM for some safety in the form of flow monitoring of the **** (incase I lose it the AME can pull timing and save the motor).

I've been told you (Petty) had a Roe at one time - where were you and with what mods. 750 is my goal (no bottles).

Viper067 - I'm not trying to hijack your thread. Im wanting more power too and am approaching the limit of a Roe Gen1 - w/o getting crazy. I hope this is helping some.

Here's where I'm at and with what - Dyno sheet attached.
Attached 3 sheets:
Max power seen while tuning (check out the A/F)
W/**** tune +2deg timing
W & W/O **** tunes that are in the car now.

I need fuel!!!

Roe Blower 10#
PBJ custom ported heads
PBJ custom ground cam(comp cams)
T&D 1.7 Roller Rockers
Roe hardened pushrods
TNT 1 3/4" 5 into 1 headers
Custom Evac system
Walbro 255 fuel pump
MSD boost a pump
Roe Water/**** kit
NGK Wideband

That is some damn fine power you are laying down!!!!

 

[FastZilla]

I've got my on on Roe's 70mm TBs - same price as the 65s.

Thx for the compliment 99 r/t!

750 is where I'm heading.....

 

[viper067]

I have no problem with thread hijack .... just gives me more opportunity to learn

Now if only there was a way to actually understand for those of us new into the engine technology what the heck you are talking about Ported heads, rockers, TB, headers, catbacks etc .....

So, back to the original question....I was looking at seeing what is possible for a NA gen 1, it seems tht 600hp at the rear is pushing it, what would have to be done to get to around 450-500hp at the rear?

 

[whitebluevipe]

Greg got my Gen1 heads flowing 305CFM intake side at a very reasonable price. Compare that with any of the other flow numbers from Gen2 heads. I think you'll see that the flow on the heads is close enough to make that type of power on a Gen1. Greg also did my intake to port match and hone out the Throttle Body openings to match 65mm TB's. Again, very reasonable price.

I'd also say that you will get a ton of advice from Greg about setups. Be sure to call him.

The issue with Gen1, I believe, is the compression ratio. Gen1 is lower to start with. So, even with the same CAM and good head flow numbers, you'll be a bit off. However, those are very realistic HP numbers. I'm over 500RWHP with a 708CAM and a 2.5" intake hose setup. I would think that the right CAM and some intake hose work would open up 550RWHP.

so if i understand this correctly you are hitting 500RWHP without a supercharger? that's inspiration for me not to spend so much money.

 

[TexasPettey]

so if i understand this correctly you are hitting 500RWHP without a supercharger? that's inspiration for me not to spend so much money.

Correct. I had a ROE on this car and took it off because it was too much power for what I do. You're going to spend as much in total $, probably more, for a N/A in the 55RWHP range as you would for a SC. However, it's very doable. I would suggest not bumping the compression, unless you really want to stay N/A. All the heads/CAM/exhast/etc translate into better FI power. With a lower compression, you'll be able to add more boost.

 

[TexasPettey]

I've got my on on Roe's 70mm TBs - same price as the 65s.

Thx for the compliment 99 r/t!

750 is where I'm heading.....

There is one quick way to check on how much restriction your TB's and airbox are causing. There is a ****** on the intake tube on your ROE that is before the SC. You can hook up a vacume gage on the dyno during a WOT pull. You can watch the vacume increase as RPMs go up if you're getting restriction from your TB's and airbox. There will always be some vacume, but it will give you an idea of what you're looking at. Also, you can mess around with the setup and see if it is having any effect on the vacume.

Also, I'm surprised that you are running out of fuel before 700RWHP. With a higher flow pump and an MSD booster, I would think that you'd be plenty safe.

 

[plumcrazy]

BAP aint gonna cut it. Anyone over 600rw or so IMO needs a real fuel system. Less is asking for major trouble.

 

[martyb]

I've got stock TBs - problem #1
I'm outta fuel at 5100rpm - problem #2
My heads were done at PBJ - would hate to have the heads reworked - anyone know what PBJs flow numbers are?
I've got a PBJ cam and without pulling it out and checking the L/D then I can only go off the sound that it's more aggressive than a 708 - no scientific data though.

My next step will be 70mm TBs (air box and tubes too) and dual fuel pumps. That should get me darn close to 700hp. When the 2.8L retrofit comes out...I hope that gets me close to 750.

I want to get into something like an AEM for some safety in the form of flow monitoring of the **** (incase I lose it the AME can pull timing and save the motor).

I've been told you (Petty) had a Roe at one time - where were you and with what mods. 750 is my goal (no bottles).

Viper067 - I'm not trying to hijack your thread. Im wanting more power too and am approaching the limit of a Roe Gen1 - w/o getting crazy. I hope this is helping some.

Here's where I'm at and with what - Dyno sheet attached.
Attached 3 sheets:
Max power seen while tuning (check out the A/F)
W/**** tune +2deg timing
W & W/O **** tunes that are in the car now.

I need fuel!!!

Roe Blower 10#
PBJ custom ported heads
PBJ custom ground cam(comp cams)
T&D 1.7 Roller Rockers
Roe hardened pushrods
TNT 1 3/4" 5 into 1 headers
Custom Evac system
Walbro 255 fuel pump
MSD boost a pump
Roe Water/**** kit
NGK Wideband

Eddie,

Joe gave me the flow numbers when he did the heads, just cannot remember what they were. They were not as good as Greg gets with Gen 2's, but within about 3% I believe. I think the cam was just a tad over .600, 232/236 duration on a 114 I think. With more fuel, bigger intake and TB's, I would be very interested in the numbers.

Keep it straight!!

martyb

 

[FastZilla]

Eddie,

Joe gave me the flow numbers when he did the heads, just cannot remember what they were. They were not as good as Greg gets with Gen 2's, but within about 3% I believe. I think the cam was just a tad over .600, 232/236 duration on a 114 I think. With more fuel, bigger intake and TB's, I would be very interested in the numbers.

Keep it straight!!

martyb

Within 3% of GG Gen2 heads??? HELW Yeah!!!!! Nice lift w/o breaking springs and enough duration that the car rocks gently, , at stop lights!

I'm hoping to get the TBs & fuel pumps in by the round-up (April). I finally got to get in it from 2nd gear thru 4th with the PS Cups in the rear...I have officially hit warp. I heard a boom somewhere in 4th....I think it might have been sonic


...or just when I let off it

Marty - you built a helluva Gen1!!!

 

[martyb]

I need to get down there at go for a ride one of these days.

 

[FastZilla]

I need to get down there at go for a ride one of these days.

You do! March should be "mod month" for the Vipers

Having to pay for my tuna tower this month