Gen 3 Roe Blower ready by VOI 10

[black mamba1]

That is what I am told by Roe Racing. I know several of us have been waiting years for this Gen 3 Roe supercharger to finally be released.

My question is, who's buying it? I see pros and cons:

Pros:

1. This is Chuck Tators only recommended forced induction system. Chuck is the best and knows Vipers in and out.

2. Sean Roe is a genius and a first rate class act and stand up guy.

3. Very big power down low resulting in quicker acceleration for equally rated Paxtons

4. They look nicer than Paxtons

5. They are usually less expensive than Paxtons (yet we have no prices for the Gen 3 yet.

6. Better power curve than Paxton for power ranges w/in 75 horsepower. Ex, a 600 rwhp Paxton will out-accelerate a 675 rwhp Paxton to 140 mph or so.

Cons:

1. No real data on performance and reliability for Roe blower for Gen 3's

2. Too much torque/power down low may not be practical w/out slick-like tires

3. More stress on engine

4. Cannot produce as much overall power as a Paxton

5. Some credibility issues due to long delay in being released

If this blower were not endorsed by Chuck Tator and built by Sean Roe, I would not even consider it. But these two guys are icons in the Viper world and anything that has their blessing should be first rate.

My only concern is controllable power down low. What are your thoughts?

 

[jpa99acr]

The endless debate continues...

My Paxton Pros:

No Water/**** needed
no constant stress on the engine.

Cons

Cost compared to ROE
Looks pale in comparison compared to ROE
Not a DIY

I do know that Woodhouse will not install anything but Paxtons.

 

[GR8_ASP]

You are missing what I consider the biggest difference (also related to the torque curve). That is in order to make the power down low as you say the peak torque is much higher. That drives you to need clutch, transmission and differential updates.

 

[RTTTTed]

I used to have No reliable traction under 100mph and could easily spin out or fishtail for hundreds of feet shifting into 3rd. I tried 600rwhp with runcraps and the new PS1s were about the same traction with 720rwhp. I installed PS1s. The car did go 10.5@139mph at the track on those PS1s though.

Now I bought a set of PS1s and I HAVE traction. If you use a Roe blower - make sure you also purchase a set of PS2s so you can use all that power!

Ted

 

[ViperTony]

Keith...just install it already so I can tell my wife I need a ROE to keep up with you on our runs.

 

[MikeR]

I guess it dep[ends on how power comes on, already this car is hard enough to launch. I wouldnt want more power down low. I pulled 1.8 60 fts with 500 rwhp N/A. Best 60 ft with Paxton, 1.9

If Im trying not to spin them up at 4-6k rpms, I dont want to have to worry about them spinning at 2k rpm too. Also, when actually racing, freeway or track, after shifting at 6k rpms, the tach only falls down to say 4k rpms , so it shouldnt matter much what the torque curve is at 2k rpms.
Ive always heard the Roe vs Paxton argument is torque down low..... I guess the true test will be once someone installs one, dynos one and runs it in the 1/4 mile. Then we will have RESULTS.

 

[pteam]

Mike,

What are RPM are you launching at at the strip? I'm gonna take my paxton up there after I get it back. I got ps2s, what do you suggest?

 

[RTTTTed]

Think of it this way, instal the Roe and if you con't like that much power give it a bad tune. Use the bigger pulley and less boost.

Me, I love all that 800+ rwtq for driving down the highway in 6th gear. I use less throttle to control the power. Half throttle equals Paxton power? But, it's all the driver when you have too much power. I've been learning that it does take tons of skill to use half throttle as compared to just smashing the throttle all the way to the floor.

With the Roe you'll get a Vec3 for tuning and you can use "smart cards" to adjust the tune instantly. Change octane for an extra 100hp and the tune only takes a smart card to change over the tune. Yes the Roe does have too much power for most peoples skill levels.

The Paxton needs a Vec 3 or an AEM to take advantage of this technology, but they can be purchased for another few thousand.

Ted

 

[Red Snake]

I can get the Roe power to the ground and I can use it. It's really not that complicated. Anyone who can drive halfway decently can figure it out. If you have a Gen III get the ROE. If it's anywhere near as good as the Gen II version, you won't regret it.

I am waiting for someone in my area to do a stock block paxton so we can hook them up.




I ain't skeered.

 

[RTTTTed]

Mike,

What are RPM are you launching at at the strip? I'm gonna take my paxton up there after I get it back. I got ps2s, what do you suggest?

At the hi-performance driving course I took I learned that 7-11% slippage is the max traction. That means that you wnat the tires to spin a little bit. Launch at 2500rpm and feather the throttle until full traction is achieved. With your Paxton you probably want to short-shift (before redline) into second gear. If you've got big power and can spin the tires in 3rd you can short shift that gear as well.

Traction varies, especially at the track. If they spray the track with rosin, that increases traction dramatically and then you can throttle it harder.

Also remember not to powershift with street tires. Soft smooth shifts work best.

Ted

 

[BlueGTS]

You are missing what I consider the biggest difference (also related to the torque curve). That is in order to make the power down low as you say the peak torque is much higher. That drives you to need clutch, transmission and differential updates.

Why would you need a clutch or transmission upgrade with a Roe? We are not talking about 1000 ft/lbs here.


Also the statement that the Roe puts more stress on the engine is debatable. The most stress on an engine comes from high RPM’s with max boost. With a Roe you do not have to go to redline to get the power out of it, most times I shift at 5200. However with a Paxton you need RPM's to get power. You would never short shift a Paxton because you could leave 50 wheel on the table. For that reason every time you make a pull you would want to go to redline to get the most out of it. The bottom line is, if you want more than 700rwhp go with Paxton as it can make big power. If 650rw is what you want it is hard to beat the Roe.

 

[RTTTTed]

Practise makes perfect and it's easy to practise with a G force accelerometer. I have a Vericom that I use. Stick it on the window and launch away! It records your time, 0-60, 1/4 mile, G forces, braking, etc. I think they're under $200 and the best tool for learning to drag race. Usually their 1/4 mile times are .02sec. off what you'll actually run at the track, because of "roll out".

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

You are missing what I consider the biggest difference (also related to the torque curve). That is in order to make the power down low as you say the peak torque is much higher. That drives you to need clutch, transmission and differential updates.

Yeah but...I have had zero issues of the type you mention Ron. I put the 5 pounder on at 54K miles -- now a tad under 80K. The stock clutch has 50K on it now. My 3.45 Unitrax has 50K as well, Tranny is still the same as when bought. You know our car is far from babied. It never leaves the garage without seeing full boost and my foot mashed to the floor a couple times.

10K SC miles on the other Roe car with zero issues as well.

As Ted has said a few times........PS2s make a world of difference for traction albeit they are still my shear pin.

With my light flywheel and 3.45 rear end, we routinely travel in 6th gear at 62-63 MPH
It's all 55 speed limits here. I think my 5th gear is about equal to stock 4.5 gear -- if that makes any sense.

Also, a GEN III with stock rear end and 19" tires has an effective street ratio of 2.92, thereby robbing some of the TQ you think could be a problem

Steve

 

[Bobpantax]

1. I believe Sean posted that the new Gen III kit will not use a VEC. It will use the hand held tuner he sells.

2. The clutch issue is real. I went through one fairly quickly in my Gen II with an 8 pound Roe setup.

3. If the fuel management works at all temperature and humidity combos, the system does not require high flow cats ( my Gen II with high flow cats and a Corsa cat back with the Roe was painfully loud ), and the limited warranty is three years like on the Paxton with a additional drivetrain warranty available, then for those who don't mind a little less driveability around town, it should be an interesting application. Since the torque comes in so low, you might want to consider a half shaft upgrade with protective loops. But some argue that this just puts more strain on the differential. You should discuss all of this with Chuck. Is the system going to require a new hood? Is it going to be intercooled. The Gen I and Gen II applications were not intercooled. The substitute was a water/**** system with the reservoir in the trunk or the windshield washer fluid container converted to a smaller water/**** reservoir. Like I said in a prior post in a separate thread, I have had both and I prefer the Paxton.

 

[MikeR]

I used to have No reliable traction under 100mph and could easily spin out or fishtail for hundreds of feet shifting into 3rd. I tried 600rwhp with runcraps and the new PS1s were about the same traction with 720rwhp. I installed PS1s. The car did go 10.5@139mph at the track on those PS1s though.

Now I bought a set of PS1s and I HAVE traction. If you use a Roe blower - make sure you also purchase a set of PS2s so you can use all that power!

Ted

The GTS has always been easier to launch and guys ran better times. Has better gearing, lighter rims/tires, smaller diamter. So dont compare a GEN 2 to a GEN 3.

Secondly, most people wont want or need that torque. Its about weight, gearing and how long the peak power is held. Thats why the Z06 is fatser stock for scok.

What is the best 1/4 mile time YOU have ran with your Gen 2??
Because the 10.5 time was done by the old owner, correct?

 

[RTTTTed]

The GTS has always been easier to launch and guys ran better times. Has better gearing, lighter rims/tires, smaller diamter. So dont compare a GEN 2 to a GEN 3.

Secondly, most people wont want or need that torque. Its about weight, gearing and how long the peak power is held. Thats why the Z06 is fatser stock for scok.

What is the best 1/4 mile time YOU have ran with your Gen 2??
Because the 10.5 time was done by the old owner, correct?

The gen 3 problem is the runcraps. My 98 GTS had only 600rwhp and the same traction as my present GTS when it had the PS1s with an extra 120+hp.

If "most people wanted More power they would modify their Vipers as well. I stated that most people won't want that much power. I also stated that superior driving skills are required for that much torque as an issue.

I refuse to ruin my streetcar with a rollcage, etc. etc. to go to the track, just to post some numbers. My car has a whole lot more power than when it had the 698rwhp that went 10.5. I also own a set of BFG Drag radials and have a 100hp Nitrous kit on the car now. It goes 9s. I don't drag it, like the previous owner did, it's my street car! If we (VCA) rent a track and I do drag the car, I'll post the numbers, not my interest. I also recently installed PS2s from JonB on the car and the traction is amazing. I think the car may run 9s on PS1s without the Nitrous now. Just don't car to drive 400mi. to the race track to get kicked off.

Ted

 

[MikeR]

The gen 3 problem is the runcraps. My 98 GTS had only 600rwhp and the same traction as my present GTS when it had the PS1s with an extra 120+hp.

If "most people wanted More power they would modify their Vipers as well. I stated that most people won't want that much power. I also stated that superior driving skills are required for that much torque as an issue.

I refuse to ruin my streetcar with a rollcage, etc. etc. to go to the track, just to post some numbers. My car has a whole lot more power than when it had the 698rwhp that went 10.5. I also own a set of BFG Drag radials and have a 100hp Nitrous kit on the car now. It goes 9s. I don't drag it, like the previous owner did, it's my street car! If we (VCA) rent a track and I do drag the car, I'll post the numbers, not my interest. I also recently installed PS2s from JonB on the car and the traction is amazing. I think the car may run 9s on PS1s without the Nitrous now. Just don't car to drive 400mi. to the race track to get kicked off.

Ted

I dont know if runcraps are as much of a problem at the dragstrip, pressure lowered, I ran almsot indentcal times and 60 fts on PS2's. Both I ran 1.8's.

And as far as your car, fair enough that you dont want to beat on it and run 1/4 mile just for bragging rights. But its much like the z06 when Ranger was running 11.0's and finally 10.9 and then you go to my local dragstrip and I see new Z06's with exhaust running 12's. So some may put down 10's on a Roe or Paxton car, the other 90% never will.

My biggest complaint is everyone knocking the Paxton. Its all theres been for 4 years, yet people still want to knock it. And there arent alot of SRT 1/4 mile times good or bad, because like you, it seems most just dont care to go to the drag strip. I think we all need to relax and wait till we get vids from the track and get some vids of some freeway races. 2 equally setup SRT's with maybe exhaust, one with a Paxton, one with a Roe. Then this will all be put to rest. Because until then, all the other guys coming in here with there GEN 2's have NOTHING relevant to post. Its apples and oranges.

All I know is any Gen Viper, with any Boost application is fast as hell and alot of fun!!!!

 

[black mamba1]

When I was at Paddock Motorsports for the dyno test a few weeks ago there was a guy there that dynoed 726 rwhp on a Roe Gen 2 GTS. I asked him

"How do you get that thing to stick in gears 1-3?"

He said, "You dont."

My main concerns are fishtailing unpredictably. I agree w/ Mike R in that the SRT's have traction issues that the GEn 1-2 Vipers do not have. Jamie Furman also agrees, he says no matter what he couldnt get a stock SRT to run below 12 in the 1/4 due to wheel hop, fishtailing, etc.

RTTTTed says his power is very usable and controllable and he is running some great times. But isnt the Roe power delivery similar to TT delivery?

I was planning on 750-800 rwhp on the Paxton, but w/ a Roe I shouldnt need that much for similar performance. There is also the issue of tuning issues. Anyone having problems keeping their Roes properly tuned? I understand the Roe blowers are more tempermental in this area. Lastly, I have been told the Roe blower would be ready by a certain date numberous times before. Honestly, I would be shocked if it is actually ready by VOI 10. But pleasantly shocked!

 

[RTTTTed]

Tire issues should soon be a thing of the past since only the PS2s are being made now.

Saying a Gen 2 and a Gen 3 are "apples and oranges"??? More like stock and modified are "apples and oranges". That's part of what this forum is all about. The guys that 'have' post their opinions on what they've done or have and how happy they are with it, right?

I don't recall "putting down the Paxtons". I do recall preferring the Roe much more. Bob Pantax prefers the Paxton. Different opinions on different performance characteristics? Everyone seems to agree that Vipers have low speed control issues and the Roe makes that much more of an issue.

To each his own. The idea is that beginners and new owners have available experience and opinions from more knowledgeable owners.

"Roe similar to TT power delivery?" No, at wide open throttle the Roe power delivery is similar to Nitrous. Half pedal gives around half power. TT's mostly provide Paxton style power because of turbo lag and needing the exhaust to 'spool' up the Turbos. Some of the TT cars run a small Nitrous off the line to provide instant boost with no appreciable turbo lag.

Ted

 

[black mamba1]

Tire issues should soon be a thing of the past since only the PS2s are being made now.

Saying a Gen 2 and a Gen 3 are "apples and oranges"??? More like stock and modified are "apples and oranges". That's part of what this forum is all about. The guys that 'have' post their opinions on what they've done or have and how happy they are with it, right?

I don't recall "putting down the Paxtons". I do recall preferring the Roe much more. Bob Pantax prefers the Paxton. Different opinions on different performance characteristics? Everyone seems to agree that Vipers have low speed control issues and the Roe makes that much more of an issue.

To each his own. The idea is that beginners and new owners have available experience and opinions from more knowledgeable owners.

"Roe similar to TT power delivery?" No, at wide open throttle the Roe power delivery is similar to Nitrous. Half pedal gives around half power. TT's mostly provide Paxton style power because of turbo lag and needing the exhaust to 'spool' up the Turbos. Some of the TT cars run a small Nitrous off the line to provide instant boost with no appreciable turbo lag.

Ted

Very good points. Also, all car manufacturers prefer the Roe type blower, as indicated by the new ZR1. Must be a reason.

I also like to the fact that my Viper Tech, Tator, has installed many Roes blowers and is practically just down the street from me.

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi again Keith. There's another way to look at the whole thing. None of us knows whether we are even going to wake up tomorrow. Why wait for the Roe. Put in the Paxton. It does not cost that much. When the Roe does come out, if it comes out, remove the Paxton and put in the Roe. I think the fun factor is worth at least 200 dollars a day. So if its 50 days until the Roe comes out after the Paxton is installed, you have lost nothing and gained a great time. ( the cost of the paxton installed is about 10K.)

 

[pteam]

Is anybody using tire warmers for their car at the track? The tires have to get awfully cold when sitting there waiting for your turn. something like this - Graves Tire Warmers - KneeDraggers.com ?

 

[MikeR]

Is anybody using tire warmers for their car at the track? The tires have to get awfully cold when sitting there waiting for your turn. something like this - Graves Tire Warmers - KneeDraggers.com ?

No tire warmers. Those as you may know are for motorcycles. I used to use them when i raced at track on racebike. It aloowed you to go pretty hard into turn one. No tire warmup for a lap needed.

As far as drag racing, a nice smokey burnout will get the tire temps up, but typically only used on slicks, not street tires.

Id just recomend a hot psi setting between 20-25lbs , I do a quick burnout, drop clutch and go, no sitting there smoking it up. Then I launchas if I left a stop light, I dont rev it up and idle high, Im quick off the clutch and almost bog it out of hole so tires dont spin up much. I usually manage 1.8/1.9 60 fts, just takes practice. There are guys running 1.6/1.7 60 fts with a little more power and better launches then me

 

[Coloviper]

Having run all types of forced induction over the years (turbos, twin turbos, roots, screw, centifugal, etc.) I always found the Lyscolm/Whipple (screw) blowers the easiest to tune and the most reliable.

Since you are talking about a fairly fixed and flat torque curve, it is fairly predictable as to how the motor will respond, thus the fuel managment systems and electronic systems (programming) are pretty simple. There are way more constants in the formulas and it is just simpler.

With the centrifigals, everything varies because the boost varies so much on it's way up the rpm ladder. Yes tune them just right and stay within the same altitude, same area and daily driving habits/conditions and the power is always right their and they will be reliable.

Here in the Rockies with all the altitude shifts, temp swings, etc. and having two cars with Vortechs on them, pushing over 650+hp, I can tell you that tuning is a complete nightmare. Dialing in the fuel systems is an art in itself. My GMC street truck I had with the 383 Stroker and a 10 psi Whipple on it was a dream here compared to the "touchy" Vortechs.

For those that want to go crazy on the power, like to tinker and get off on dyno charts, go for the Paxton type units. For those that want good ole reliable power, don't want head-aches, rarely lift their hoods, go for the Roe screw charger. It is more like just adding displacement than supercharging because the power is always there.

The Roe will more than likely only have a 5 psi pulley. Anything under 6 psi on ANY stock engine is within design tolerances. It is the high PSI and extreme heat associated that blows the motors away calling for forged internals. The more torque, will put stress on the clutch, tranny, rear end rest of the drivetrain, but for those looking at short power jaunts, this will not even factor into abuse. The screw is way, way quieter as well.

Me, I am interested in the Roe but only if it looks like an integrated, factory look piece. If it looks added on, then it will look sloppy. It needs to be in a nice metal flake silver color (all of it) and it needs to flow ****. It also needs to be intercooled. If it is intercooled, the efficiency can not be matched nor bettered by the centrifugals.

To each their own though. The Paxton kit looks good and is proven. Roe still has to show us theirs. It is speculation right now, but I do know that technology wise the screw blowers are heads above the rest.

Which reminds me, I am late for the Friday session of the Mile High Nationals NHRA. Guess what blower all the big boys run? That is right, Lyscolm screw blowers! There is a reason why.

 

[pteam]

No tire warmers. Those as you may know are for motorcycles. I used to use them when i raced at track on racebike. It aloowed you to go pretty hard into turn one. No tire warmup for a lap needed.

As far as drag racing, a nice smokey burnout will get the tire temps up, but typically only used on slicks, not street tires.

Id just recomend a hot psi setting between 20-25lbs , I do a quick burnout, drop clutch and go, no sitting there smoking it up. Then I launchas if I left a stop light, I dont rev it up and idle high, Im quick off the clutch and almost bog it out of hole so tires dont spin up much. I usually manage 1.8/1.9 60 fts, just takes practice. There are guys running 1.6/1.7 60 fts with a little more power and better launches then me

Good info there Mike thanks. The thing I know of my car now non paxton'd is after a few mins of driving out of my development onto a street where I can floor 1st gear the tires want to give even with ps2s cause theyre not warm, after 5 mins more of driving then theyre warm. I feel like at the strip after sitting there waiting for your turn theyre totally cold again, how much can a burn out for a few secs actually warm up the tires?

 

[chimazo]

Guess what blower all the big boys run? That is right, Lyscolm screw blowers! There is a reason why.

That may be true, but the fastest STREET cars (and NMRA/NMCA cars) ALL run either turbo's or centri's, whether they be Mustangs, Vipers, Vettes, whatever.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Very good points. Also, all car manufacturers prefer the Roe type blower, as indicated by the new ZR1. Must be a reason.

I also like to the fact that my Viper Tech, Tator, has installed many Roes blowers and is practically just down the street from me.

"Tis a reason. Gee just how many automotive engine engineers do we have on here anyway? Ha! How many have designed OEM supercharged engines? Ha!

Why would you need a clutch or transmission upgrade with a Roe? We are not talking about 1000 ft/lbs here.


Also the statement that the Roe puts more stress on the engine is debatable. The most stress on an engine comes from high RPM’s with max boost. With a Roe you do not have to go to redline to get the power out of it, most times I shift at 5200. However with a Paxton you need RPM's to get power. You would never short shift a Paxton because you could leave 50 wheel on the table. For that reason every time you make a pull you would want to go to redline to get the most out of it. The bottom line is, if you want more than 700rwhp go with Paxton as it can make big power. If 650rw is what you want it is hard to beat the Roe.

A displacement supercharger like the Roe tends to increase the torque substantially more at lower rpm than a supercharger like the Paxton. That torque for the same peak power will probably be in the 10-20% range. That stresses the driveline that much more. Period! Plus, since it is available during normal driving, there is a tendency to apply that torque more often. Anyone who thinks, even for a minute, that additional torque does not decrease the life of the drivetrain just plain does not understand physics. I do not care about an example here or there. Physics is physics. There is a reason the SRT changed the transmission, clutch and differential for 2008. That reason is TORQUE. Torque is the force that fatigues shafts, bearings and the like. Horsepower increases the frequency of the loading, thus also reducing the life. But if you ever looked at an S/N curve you will note that frequency and stress do not have equivalent impact on fatigue life spans.

No one that I saw mentioned stress on the engine. But if it continues to be a non-interecooled supercharger it can indeed induce more thermal stress. But the simple fact is that torque is made by the force on the piston, pushing the connecting rod through the crankshaft journal. That MUST increase the loading on each component in the system. What is okay with a Gen 2 forged connecting rod engine may not be okay with a powder metal 2005+ rod.

Bottom line is I have not heard of a failure of a Paxton that was not due to a very poor tune (usually due to some system failure like the fuel pump or upgrades beyond the Paxton itself). I cannot say the same for Roe systems, which as we know are very temperature and tune sensitive due to the lack of an intercooler and post supercharger inlet temperature sensor.

 

[Kenneth Krieger]

I've had both.....Roe and Paxton.....I like both of them. I don't need any more on the low end with the Gen 3 and 3:55's and the Paxton......I installed the Paxton myself for $6,200. Complete! (Turned 10.38 at 138.8mph with a 1.71 60ft time with 750ft air on a 67 degree day with 7% humidity......the track was mediocre......) Paxton, $6,200.....I wonder if the Roe will be that "resonable"? My Roe cost me $7,200 and that was 5 years ago! A friend (a GOOD friend) installed it for me at NO cost!

 

[Limit]

I plan on getting a Roe or Paxton on my Gen 2 GTS... And I have iForged rims coming...20's on front and rear, should I get this changed? Is there a good mix between looks and performance?

Thanks!
Mark

PS: Street-use only, PS2's, and I'm not going to take my tires off and put the stock ones on.

 

[1TONY1]

That may be true, but the fastest STREET cars (and NMRA/NMCA cars) ALL run either turbo's or centri's, whether they be Mustangs, Vipers, Vettes, whatever.

Billy Glidden and some others may debate you on that