Head work

[SEASNAKE]

I am considering have my heads worked and was trying to get an idea of how much it would cost and how much horsepower it would add. I have a Gen 1 with 3" catless exhaust, edelbrock headers, 1.7 rockers, K&Ns and smooth tubes (415HP/485TQ). What other things should be done in conjunction with this (valves, springs, etc)? Where is the best place to get this done - I would install them at home.

 

[Tom Welch]

SEASNAKE,

If you can wait about a week, I will have a new Cylinder head upgrade package available that should suit your needs to a "T".

Fully ported, they flow an additional 40-50 cfm per cylinder. The basic head set will be equipped with stock size valves and the deck cleaned about .010-.020" for a slight compression gain. You will be able to retain stock valve gear and pushrods without changing geometry. On paper they look to be worth about 60 HP. and should be the hot setup for the mildly modified Viper.

I do not have the pricing finalized yet but Im hoping to be in the $ 2200.00 dollar price point on an exchange basis for the above heads and will be testing the above set on my own viper over the next few weeks.

We will also offer different stages of work from the mild above to custom work including oversized valves, valve relocation for valve gear geometry, deck angle surfacing for higher compression without compromizing intake manifold fit, and so on.

Good luck with your search,

Tom

Http://btrviper.com

 

[SEASNAKE]

Tom,

Sounds pretty good. Are you going to test these and post numbers?

 

[Tom Welch]

Shakedown,

Does this mean that you are not intrested in purchasing a set of my heads!?LOL. Keep paying too much for LESS, Pal.

Tom

 

[Sniper]

Tom - What would be a ballpark figure for labor for this? And you say 60 H.P. gain, is this RWHP and on a Gen I?

You are barking up my alley!!!

 

[Tom Welch]

Matt,

Good questions. I will have definate answers as soon as the heads are bolted on my car. It is a gen2.........but I have a few gen1 customers who are wanting to guinea pig for performance data. 60 BHP(50 rear wheel horsepower) on a chassis dyno is what we expect from the basic head package above. I feel optimistic that the numbers will be even higher. Remember that these are our basic heads designed for mildly modified vipers. If you want more compression(non-nitrous),bigger valves, deck angle changes to accomodate intake fit and etc., we will have optional upgrades. Keep in mind that the heads that I will be bolting on are designed for 90% of the enthusiasts, as they will be maintenance free and the process can even be done on the customers heads to insure all original parts remain on the engine.

As for labor charges, again once I do the install on my car I will have pricing based upon time and parts needed for the project. I can guarantee you though, that my labor charges will be the lowest in the industry. An example; I charge a flat
$ 500 dollars for a complete viper exhaust system install(thats about 25% of what most charge).

It is my continuing goal to offer reaonably priced alternatives to REAL performance gains to the viper community.

Thanks again for your questions,

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[Russ M]

Shakedown,

I find it kinda ironic that you are complaining about $2200.00 heads, when you seem to possess a venom 650 in your stable. How much did you pay for that? 30k? And seeing that at the recent dyno day which is being discussed on a threat on this board all the 650's pull the same hp and torque numbers as BTR's header and exhaust cars. Which as I recall costs about $4500.00, and is also the only package offered by any of the tunners in the viper world which guarantee the power you will gain.

Frankly I dont have any BTR products on my car yet, and may never. But I am willing to give them a chance at my business and actualy wait for the hp #'s on the heads. And if they do gain anywhere near 60hp with the mods mentioned then great and I will have a set on my car.

And finaly BTR is a tunner which is one of the first new comers to the viper world which does not ever do everything as HMS, SVSI, etc... BTR seems to use stock components where possible and retain stock engines period, which frankly is what we need more off. Guys with other cars such as supras see 700-900 hp on bone stock bottom ends. And the Viper internals although not tested to that extreem should be able to achieve at least that type of power considering we have 4 more cylinders to distribute the load over. I say if Tom wants to test the limits of stock viper parts then let him, and lets finish this rediculous practice of building bottom ends for 600+hp cars.

 

[Tom Welch]

Russ,

Well said. I have laid off of this topic until my car is dynoed with our heads. I have pics of the stock heads removed for evidence of NO abnormal wear with hundreds of nitrous passes....on another post on this board.

Shakedown is HMS's head man. No need to argue with him. I haven't asked him to divulge any of his "secrets" to those 450 hp cars labeled as 650hp packages. For me proof has always been in the pudding and hopefully by thursday I will have dyno numbers of my new head package on my own car!

As earlier stated we will offer two levels of performance. Stage 1 and 2. My car has stage 2 heads which have big valves and all of the features of high dollar heads at a fraction of the price of my competition.

I will have pricing finalized this week on both stages and the options that we will have available to add on to both stages.

Again, thanks for your support as a viper enthusiast. Send me your address and I will send you a FREE drag race your viper video, that way you can say that you have at least one of my products!

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[GTS Jeff]

originally posted by shakedown
--------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Martin D]

All,

I say again......

Not all 650R's are created equal???

My Numbers can be backed up. See my Signature.

Regards,

 

[Marc Lublin]

Shakedown, what's with the stepping on my di** line? No reason to get like that. Lets keep it clean here. I'm surprised the moderators let that by. You seem so threatened by Tom and his products, even before they are on the market. As far as those 650 numbers, just having them posted on the Viper club website enlightens everyone on you and the outfit that writes your paycheck. Keep up the good work!

 

[Tom Welch]

Shakedown,

To give you the benefit of the doubt, I read your original post again and I don't find any questions, only incinuations(sp)and lead-ins that I see to be competitive in nature. I have not asked nor do I care how you port the heads for HMS cars.

If you have legitimate quesions of a non competitive nature, please field them. I suggest you answer to the questions about why there are 650 venoms out there that only produce 450 hp! I have several customers with just exhaust systems making that and more. Otherwise if you want to smack talk me do it on my board, not here where legitimate customers are asking questions about products. I have never hammered your boss with posts like yours, i suggest you follow suit.

Martin D.,

I did the math(565 + 15%= 649.7) and you missed the cut by .3 of 1 horsepower. Nothing like a little braggin buffer, AHY! LOL.... My viper on the other hand, a BTR-650 package made 620 RWHP and 723 RWTQ(620 + 15%= 713BHP)I prefer to understate package performance.

Tom

Http:btrviper.com

 

[Russ M]

Shakedown,

I dont know what rock you crawled from under, but you need an attitude check.

As far as the 650 package goes the proof is in the pudding and 480 rwhp is a joke. If it was my car I would be extreemly upset, just stating the facts.

HMS(John),

Is this the type of people you have working for you?

 

[Tom Welch]

Martin,

12-13% driveline loss is acceptable for manual transmission cars without independent rear suspension. Any time you add a slip fit and/or U-joint it costs torque and power. 15% is the norm for vipers and It is posted as the formula on some of my competitors websites including HMS. To say that 15% is exact is not known for sure.

I always used the formula of chassis dyno hp(and/or drag strip trap speed-MPH) + 15%= BHP. We don't know for sure what our flywheel horsepower is after modifications unless we either run at a dragstrip for MPH or make a dyno pull.

Regardless, 560 RWHP is very, very strong and can't be obtained with simple bolt ons. You have a powerful natrually aspirated viper.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[Martin D]

Hey Tom,

Wouldn't the correct formula be 650 X .85? Which equales 552.50 at the tires? I always did it that way. But just for Argument sake, I only account for a 13% driveline loss. Which still gets me **SLIGHTLY** more than 650 at the flywheel!

Also, as for your package, I have heard great things about it. If I raced the car at the track, I would most certainly invest in the Bottle. But for now, I will just have to settle.

Regards,

 

[jgfurr]

Strictly looking at this from a math standpoint, you should not take RWHP and add 15% to it. That will give you a low horsepower figure at the flywheel. What you should do is take your RWHP figure and divide it by .85, because your RWHP is 85% of the flywheel HP. Basically, you are low-balling your own HP if you add 15% instead of dividing by 85%. For example:

560 RWHP + 15% = 560 + 84 = 644 hp
560 RWHP / .85 = 659 hp

Sorry for being nit-picky about the math. I should curse all my college math profs!!!!

 

[Tom Welch]

Chris,

We just announced performance packages about a month ago. They will be on my website within the next week. The overview of them is posted in the suppliers specials forum of this board. We are offering FREE pick-up and delivery of your viper on all of our packages for those in the eastern half of the United States.

We have natrually aspirated packages up to 550 hp. The BTR 650 does have nitrous.

Thanks again for your consideration.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[Sniper]

Hey Tom-

Do you need a Gen I Guinneau Pig?

And let me know total cost breakdown of pickup, delivery,
and labor.

Thanks

 

[GO 4LO]

Hi, Tom,
I wasn't aware that you offered power "packages" like some of the other tuners. So you use nitrous to reach the numbers you stated above, or is that before nitrous? What all is included in the 650 package? Either way, very impressive numbers!
Chris

 

[FastMatt]

LOLOL

Man, all Boards are the same....

Why would you feel the need to jump all over the guy like that?
the proof will be in his Dyno #'s

good luck Tom

 

[Tom Welch]

John,

Thanks for your post.

First let me say that I have heard and watched a few 650R's in action and they definately demand respect for non-nitrous machines. Phil Simms car sounds like a B-29 driving down the road! As for those cars in MD., who knows? I hope you can work those issues out, should the customers be so inclined. Believe me, I look forward to seeing a few 650R's in my rear view mirror in Texas!..LOL

As for our performance guarantee, it will be on our website soon with the head upgrades and our new performance packages. I have stood alone with regards to performance guarantee's on any viper product, and would think that any kind of performance guarantee is better than none(which is what all others offer) I don't recall a "reliability" guarantee, but as always we will continue to accomodate the needs of our customers, no matter what the cost. We have spent months R&D on these heads, and the rest of the package components are time tested on my car as well as literally hundreds of satisfied customers vipers throughout the U.S., Canada, and Europe!

Also, my racing experience goes far beyond the viper. Over the last 20+ years we have sucessfully campaigned several 1000+ hp engines that are far more sophisticated than the viper engine and have NEVER had a valve drop, valve seat fail, or any other catastrophic failure of the cylinder heads or valvetrain. These heads are assembled with that same care and expertise and they are now bolted on my own $ 70,000.00 car and will be put through severe duty and real world testing. Feel confident in your purchase that no expense has been spared to insure the quality of this product.

Feel free to contact me about purchasing heads, as we will offer dealer pricing for other tuners and dealers. Im sure Shakedown will approve!

Tom
Http://btrviper.com