help with deciding fuel pumps..pics inside...

[Qualitywires.com]

I am at crossroads of what fuel pump to buy..

I want one that doens't have issues with over heating....

Does anyone have experience with these high flow EFI pumps?

The aeromotive Eliminator pump seems to have issues with overheating...such as this one. (inline)

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Or do you think this set up will have less isuues with overheating and cavitation from heat since it's not inline.

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[Qualitywires.com]

oh come on...someone?

 

[Supra]

If you want good solid realible fuel pumps (which are also inexpensive to boot) get a couple of 255L/H Walbros. This is what a lot of the Supra guys use and are good to ~1000 RWHP for the pair on boosted cars. You could always do 2 stock Viper pumps.....

oh come on...someone?

 

[Qualitywires.com]

The problem is, I already got the fuel lines and plumbing in place...

 

[REDSLED]

I've seen these pumps on numerous race cars. Good luck.

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=fuel+pumps&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&searchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp&x=39&y=6

-Jonathan

 

[1TONY1]

Have you looked at Barry Grant pumps ?

 

[Qualitywires.com]

I've seen these pumps on numerous race cars. Good luck.

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=fuel+pumps&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&searchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp&x=39&y=6

-Jonathan

Which fuel pump are you talking about redsled?

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Have you looked at Barry Grant pumps ?

Which one would you look at Tony? Something that will flow 650lbs per hour plus..@45 psi

 

[Viper Specialty]

AB- Check out the Barry Grant King Sumo.

1000 lbs/hr @ 75 psi, built in fuel filter, Flow-through fuel cooled design bult for continuous use (streetable), built in Bypass, etc...

It is my understanding the pumps were recently redesigned in light of early problems with them, and are either still on backorder for a few more weeks, or the the new version is now available.

(That last bit of info was from LS1Tech however... so god knows how reliable that is...LOL!)

 

[Qualitywires.com]

The problem with flow through designs is that they heat up the fuel, along with the regulator and fuel rails...causes extreme heat and then when it goes back the the pump...the fuel doesn't cool off the pump as much which then leads to cavitation... that is why I was wondering about the magna flow type design if it were any better?

 

[Viper Specialty]

AB- Heat still has to be transferred, one way or another. I doubt any design short of some type of a thermal separator would keep heat from being transferred... and even then you have to find a way to cool the motor for longevity.

Realistically, with multiple stock 255's, I suppose even the stock pumps will heat up the fuel enough to lead to cavitation.

 

[carl B]

I have a Weldon one from Sean Roe. Yet to be fitted as yet

Are these reliable?

Carl

 

[1TONY1]

Weldon is also highly respected.

 

[Viper Specialty]

CARL B- Weldon pumps are very reliable and highly respected. However, they are also very noisey. Please post upon install and let us know your opinion on the noise level in a Viper application.

I personally am very excited to try the BG King Sumo, however I question the reliability of these aftermarket pumps... Walbro 255's are basically bulletproof. However, I am strongly considering multiple 255's instead, (perhaps see if I can find a way to mount three using -6 line and combine them into a -10 with a fuel block) It all depends on if I can get them to fit the stock canister, effectively plumb it, and see if it ends up being too noisey. I really like the idea of having 3 pumps, as two should be able to flow enough for just about any situation, plus a backup. Nothing could ruin your day more than a broken fuel pump... even one of the three 255's could get you home in a limp condition.

Another idea.... have all three pumps connected individually, effectively reproducing the same idea as a "stepdown box." Taking the car out for a cruise? 1 pump. Spirited? 2 pumps. suspected bad pump or hittin' up the eliminator bracket at your local track? all three.

Opinions?

 

[Qualitywires.com]

I think I am going the weldon route...as far as noise level goes...you can get a voltage stepdown where the pump isn't running so high and not drawing a ton of amperage. Wledon's will keep the fuel cooler and also have plenty there when you need it underboost.

I not totally convinved that 3 walbro pumps would not heat up the fuel either...but I think the plumbing would be an issue, but you can custom fabercate a bracket to make the pumps fit.

I decided I will run a radiator type cooler on the return side of the fuel lines to help keep the temps down. I will attach a small spal fan to help with the cooling. I have heard Aeromotives are kind of a hit or miss type pump..I'm tired of having my pump cavitate and see my pressure drop and then my car stumbles and dies...I have to wait for the pump to cool off and then it runs fine..

I may spend more but I won't have to worry anymore either..

Earl Kinsler is a very knowledgable person and he spent a good 30 minutes explaining his knowledge to me. totally made sense in what he was saying..

The problem with top fed rails is that they tend to soak up a lot of the heat from the engine and when you pressurize the fuel, it also adds more heat...so the fuel doesn't help with the cooling of the pump which leads to overheating issues with an inline external pump...

 

[Jack B]

AB:

just a thought, wouldn't you think fuel rails should run cooler then the stock fuel galleries. If anything they are going to have some air flow over them, in affect, acting like a heat exchanger. On the other hand the internal fuel galleries will be running at a temperature fixed at some delta-t greater than engine temperature.

Another issue, I don't understand why hot fuel would cause cavatation. The density would have to change drastically to affect the physical properties of the fuel. That would require taking the fuel near boiling, do the pumps alter the temperature that much. Is it possible that this temperature issue is limited to race-only cars, since typically they have such limited fuel storage systems, therefore, being less capable of radiating/conducting/convecting the heat.

 

[Viper Specialty]

JACK B- 99% of cavitation problems I have ever heard of were in race cars, or in street cars with virtually no fuel in them. The cavitation is caused by a combination of heat generated by the pump and a negative pressure on the inlet side, which results in the fuel boiling...though I suppose even a well designed inlet could suffer if it got THAT hot. at that point, I think I would fear for my life too!

 

[txlen]

i personally have run the Aeromotive eliminator pump on the street with and with out the billet controller they say to use...it's a piece of junk!!!went thru 2 pumps and gave up....the barry grant king sumho looks good but is not available as of yet...edelbrock is also coming out with a good looking pump and edelbrock has a great reputation in cust service, but it's still not out yet...i called was told it was not even out of tech yet...i ended up running a Accel DFI 75710 pump...it works great!!...it feeds over a 1000hp with no probs at all....don't need a controller or anything, jus a relay and it's relatively quiet.....i also have a weldon in another car.....the Accel is quieter than the weldon setup ......

 

[Bill B]

I have the Aeromotive eliminator pump on the Viper and the Walbros on my RX-7 and never had a problem with either.

 

[pullshard]

I have 1 255 pump in my car now. I have seen how it is mounted and such in the fuel tank, but how in the heck do you mount 2 in there? With 2, how do they supply fuel? In other words, how are they plumbed? The outlets on them are pretty damn small. Does one at this point install all new lines?
Thanks

 

[Flawed]

Walbros are good pretty quiet and cheap. Bosch inline pumps aren't bad either. I have run both on high boosted cars. Running twin pumps in tank on supras and RX7's isn't hard at all you just need to make a few new lines and that is about it really.(little over simplified) Pickup in the 7's **** I wouldn't rely on intank anything on those. I mount a under car surge tank on those cars.

-SGC

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Well, I have decided to go with Earl Kinsler's suggestions..The Aeromotive Fuel pump I have works fine until it heats up. I am getting rid of my pump, controller and filter.

I have ordered the Weldon Pump, two filters and controller with a psi switch. I should be able to run the weldon pump real low on voltage and also keep it quiet on normal driving conditions...now under boost it will kick on and then who cares about the noise. It was a bit more expensive on than the aeromotive side, but the design should keep me cooler..

 

[carl B]

Please keep me posted on the control unit and the PSI switch as I don't have these as yet

 

[Qualitywires.com]

I have a split sec box that would do the same thing on the psi switch...but you have to always have a laptop to adjust...with earls' you can just adjust through a knob....knobs rule!

On the vec2 I think there is also a 12 volt lead that is rpm or psi sensative.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

From an oil company's evaluation of street cars, it's been shown that electric pumps, whether inline or in-tank, can cavitate if the fuel system returns fuel from the engine compartment back to the tank. The heat in the engine compartment heats the fuel in the rails, goes back to the tank, heats the fuel in the tank, and the lower the fuel level gets, the warmer the fuel in the tank becomes. Temperatures of 130F have been recorded. Eventually the fuel on the inlet side (under vacuum) will reach it's local boiling temperature and turn to vapor.

Heat generated by the pump alone wouldn't tend to cause cavitation, even in in-line pumps. The manufacturer should have the fuel doing the cooling around the electric motor on the pressurized side (to prevent flashing under less than ambient pressure conditions that exist on the inlet side), and fuel under 20 psi or more pressure will have a difficult time boiling. Fuel is extremely low viscosity, so the shear effects that would heat fuel under recirculation (in the pressure relief valve) are minimal. The electric motor may generate heat under low flow conditions, but realistically, wouldn't it be immediately cooled as soon as you open the throttle?

Sorry I'm prancing in a the last minute with "thought-provoking" questions, but for my own education, are we saying there are returnless fuel systems that cavitate? (I would be surprised.) Are these cavitation problems on fuel return system cars (makes sense.) Are the cavitation problems related to small (stock) inlet fuel line diameters? (If cavitation is at high load, this could be.) Anyone measure fuel temperatures? (just curious.)

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Tom,

You are correct in what you are saying. I do think there is less likely a chance of cavitation on a returnless system. The rails pick up heat and obviously transfer to the fuel that goes back into the tank...

So heated fuel will cause the pump to work at a hotter temp. I have heard of temps as high as 160 also. What I have experienced is having to shut the car down and waiting for the temps to drop.

I will also be installing a air to air fuel cooler up front with -6 fitting on the return side of the fuel system after the fuel pressure regulator where that should be the last point where the fuel heats up and then through the cooler back to the tank...I think this will help out in the summer days...but I think the over all combo I have will reduce a lot of my problems...

The more I think about how DLM's Fuel system is set up the more it makes sense and less hassles with top fed fuel rail systems. You get the advantage of the stock fuel system but under load and boost...you are richened up in the fuel mixture..I am sure his system produces less heat in the gas tank than my system that many people go after with the fuel rails...I am no expert at fuel systems...but just seeing the surface...who knows..may I will go down that route later.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

On a past car, I used a two-pass power steering fluid cooler. It is made to handle high pressure, comes with bracket attached, small enough to put almost anywhere, reasonable tube size, usually cheap used because it's a throw-away. Did I mention cheap?

 

[dansauto]

I have 1 255 pump in my car now. I have seen how it is mounted and such in the fuel tank, but how in the heck do you mount 2 in there? With 2, how do they supply fuel? In other words, how are they plumbed? The outlets on them are pretty damn small. Does one at this point install all new lines?
Thanks

Go onto the alley site and look at my gallery. I fit a 255 line the oem canister with the oem pump. Works great, no cavation, will support 1000Hp and only slightly noiser than just the oem pump. You have to run two lines out of the canister and into a y block.