Junkman, waterspot question

[TrackAire]

Hey Junkman,

I did a paint correction on a black 2005 Excursion about 4 weeks ago. Used Megs 105/205 combo with a PC. The biggest problem is the hood had a lot of waterspots (might be etched into the paint, not sure but they were bad) and after doing the hood, I thougth it look really, really good. I could barely see any of the waterspots and was happy with the outcome. About 10 days later, I noticed that the waterspots look kinda bad again and were much more noticeable. No where near as bad as before the paint correction, but a lot more pronounced that I remember. The truck is stored inside and driven very little, has not been in the rain, sprinklers, etc since the paint correction.

Are my eyes just playing tricks on me or can paint defects re-surface after a few weeks after paint correction? I'm thinking about getting more aggressive with the hood and have another go at it but I am worried about getting too deep into the clear coat.

Any thoughts or recommendations?

Cheers,
George

 

[Junkman2008]

The water spots didn't reappear, they didn't go anywhere to begin with. They may have lessened some but they were still there all along. Whatever light source that you recently used to see these water spots is what you should have used to check for them while you were working on them. I have experienced water spots that had to be wet sanded out because of how deep they were. This is not abnormal for one reason, which applies to many people's paint. That is, if you allow water spots to sit on the paint long enough and your paint is full of scratches and swirls, then the water spots will etch deep into the clear coat because the scratches provide an avenue deeper into the clear coat. Allow me to elaborate.

View a scratch in your paint or clear coat like a small rip. If there were no rips in your paint or clear coat, the water spots would sit on top of your paint or clear coat and begin the etching process from the top. If your paint or clear coat had wax on top of it, then the water spot would start the etching process while sitting on top of the wax. A water spot sitting on wax would have to eat through the wax and then into the clear coat or paint. That's a much harder scenario for the water spot, especially if you use a good wax such as a long lasting sealant.

Now let's look at a water spot sitting on top of some jacked up paint or clear coat. By having a rip in your paint or clear coat, you provide an avenue for the water spots, deep into your paint or clear coat. That means that not only does the water spots begin the etching process on top of your paint or clear coat, it also begins that process deep into the rips (or scratches) of your paint or clear coat. Thus, jacked up paint allows the water spot an advantage to get deep into your paint or clear coat and will require a more aggressive plan of attack in order to rid your paint job of them. This also requires you to remove more material, a scenario that isn't good if you have no clue as to how much material you are starting with or how much material you are removing. Without being able to determine the amount of material that you are removing, you are a blind man working and THAT is not a good situation.

There is a way to find out how much material you are starting with and how much you are removing. It's called a paint thickness gauge. Now paint thickness gauges come with various abilities but there is only ONE on the planet that I know of that would work in this situation. It is called the DeFelsko PosiTector 200 B or C/Advanced (the B or C designation denotes the material that the panels of your car are made of). With this device, I can detect the thickness of the primer, base coat AND clear coat on any given panel of my car. Since my car is made of fiberglass, the C/Advanced is what I use to take those measurements. By using this device, I can use aggressive measures on my paint to remove deep imperfection but at the same time, see EXACTLY how much material I am removing every step of the way. This allows me to work and determine if proceeding is safe, or if I should leave well enough alone because of the depth of the damage. Clearly an advantage for me but not my wallet. This device will set you back in the neighborhood of $3000.

So as you can see, the condition of your paint will determine just how bad your damage can be. Also, the amount of time you wait between when the damage occurred and when you finally decided to address it will also have a bearing on how difficult the repair will be. With paint care, addressing a situation within the first 24 hours can be critical. The damage starts immediately and you don't want to allow it to proceed unabashed.

Now as to what you can safely try to fix it? That depends. I have never seen you work on paint, I know nothing of your abilities and I do not know if your technique is solid. A solid technique is way more important than the product you are using. A person using a crappy product with a solid technique is going to have much better results than someone using the best product in the world and a lousy technique. What this means is, you could already be using a combination of products that will fix your situation. Without seeing you work, I cannot say. However, if your technique is solid and those products are not working, I would give the Meguiar's Microfiber System a try. The only catch is you have to be working on OEM paint. If you are working on a aftermarket paint job, that system is NOT for you. Also, that system is made to be used with an orbital polisher, such as the PC-7424XP.

There are of course more aggressive options that you can try but I would never advise you to try any of them, especially since I know nothing of your paint correcting abilities. My motto is, "Never tell a guy to do something to the paint of his pride and joy that I would not allow him to do to mine."

 

[TrackAire]

Thanks AJ,

That is a very comprehensive explanation of what is going on. Although from a distance, this truck looks like a show truck, it has been used in very extreme conditions like driving off road for 5 days in Death Valley by one of our Swiss manufacturers. He did the off road trip the week before SEMA and was to meet up with us for the show. When he showed up, my wife did not realize that it was our Excursion since it looked off-white with so much fine silt covering the truck

Regarding the Megs Microfiber system, do I have to use their specific compound when using these pads or can I stll use the 105? I've seen the product and wasn't sure how aggressive their cutting compound was versus the 105. I was using Megs cutting and polishing foam pads (purple and yellow).

Have you had a chance to run the Microfiber system though its paces...what do you think?

I think I'll give it another go with the PC and see if I can make it a little less noticable. I believe a wool pad is the most aggressive, should I consider this if I have enough clear coat and the skills to try it? And yes, this is OEM paint.

Last question, what "wax" have you found works well for the final protection coat? In all the vids of you I've watched, I don't remember seeing which wax you're finishing up with or prefer.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
George

 

[Junkman2008]

Again, I have no capability of knowing how good your buffing technique is by reading your post. Thus, I would never recommend that you get a wool pad and use it on your paint. As I said before, your technique could be flawed and once corrected, could end up resolving your issues. What I suggest you do is check out this thread, starting at post #34. In it, I direct Kcobean on how to fix his paint. I think that you could learn a lot from just reading and seeing how I directed him to getting positive results. See if your technique is flawed by watching what he did and what I told him to do. We'll take it from there.

As for the Meguiar's microfiber system. You use the COMPLETE system as it is sold. You are already trying to doom your results by thinking about shortcuts and saving money. The whole system is made to give you the best results as a complete system. You cut NONE of it out. Doing so just sets you up for failure. Never second guess the people who engineer this stuff. They know way more about this than any of us do, including any professional detailers.

After all, if a professional detailer knew more than the product engineers, they wouldn't be buying other people's products. They would be using their own manufactured products.

As for wax, I like using sealants as they are the longest lasting protection that you can buy. There are plenty to choose from and I am testing out a few. I'm still out to lunch on my decision but because my paint is darn near flawless, I have been looking pretty hard at Opti-seal.

 

[Willis]

I will try to chime in a little on TrackAire Q's....

Regarding why the water spots magically reappeared might of been due to Megs 205 filling capabilities. Its always good practice to clean the surface after polishing. IPA (Isopropyl Alcohol) mix is a go to choice. You could also use glass cleaner if you mix your own..

And the Megs MF system is there MF Cutting and Finishing Discs combined with there D300.. Its a really good system!! But yes you can use other products with Megs MF discs, which Optimum and CG makes MF disc. Megs had some problems in the beginning with the back of the pad melting but as of now have fixed the problem. And NO Disrespect at all to Junkman...Which Im curious if its the same guy from the Youtube Vids, if so man I love your personality and your vids.!!! But some of the Pro detailers out there help and work hand and hand to come up with some of these products..

Also with the advancement of Pads and Compounds out nowadays, there is so so so much you can do with a PC...With a Surbuf pad and Megs 105 shoot, that things will do some work...But I got a Megs Product that should be here any day now called M101...If no one has heard of it is because you really cant get it. ;-) Supposed to be some amazing stuff.

And JunkMan is correct a sealant will most times outlast a wax or glaze, in the LSP department. Opti-Seal or Opti-Coat are pretty good choices. I like the shorter span sealants. For my LSP I have been favoring the HD Poxy...Have you tried it Junkman?

Pics are of the Megs MF System:

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[Junkman2008]

I will try to chime in a little on TrackAire Q's....

Regarding why the water spots magically reappeared might of been due to Megs 205 filling capabilities. Its always good practice to clean the surface after polishing. IPA (Isopropyl Alcohol) mix is a go to choice. You could also use glass cleaner if you mix your own..

I was under the impression that M105 & M205 did not contain any fillers. That what I read somewhere on MOL, unless the poster was mistaken. Are you 100% on that info?

And the Megs MF system is there MF Cutting and Finishing Discs combined with there D300.. Its a really good system!! But yes you can use other products with Megs MF discs, which Optimum and CG makes MF disc. Megs had some problems in the beginning with the back of the pad melting but as of now have fixed the problem. And NO Disrespect at all to Junkman...Which Im curious if its the same guy from the Youtube Vids, if so man I love your personality and your vids.!!! But some of the Pro detailers out there help and work hand and hand to come up with some of these products..

Yes, I am the same Junkman. Thanks for the compliment. I do realize that some of the professional detailers assist with the testing and input of products that come to maket but when it comes down to the final word, I will always side with the manufacturer. After all, who should know their product better than them? That's not a slam on the professional detailers out there, just a common sense call on my behalf. By watching my videos, you know that I'm all about common sense when it comes to doing this stuff.

Also with the advancement of Pads and Compounds out nowadays, there is so so so much you can do with a PC...With a Surbuf pad and Megs 105 shoot, that things will do some work...But I got a Megs Product that should be here any day now called M101...If no one has heard of it is because you really cant get it. ;-) Supposed to be some amazing stuff.

Funny that you should mention those products as I have them all, including the M101. Somebody sent me a 16 bottle of that stuff about 3 months ago. They treated it like smuggling in Cuban cigars, lol. I've got such a combination of stuff that I will be making videos all summer.

And JunkMan is correct a sealant will most times outlast a wax or glaze, in the LSP department. Opti-Seal or Opti-Coat are pretty good choices. I like the shorter span sealants. For my LSP I have been favoring the HD Poxy...Have you tried it Junkman?

I have a bottle of it and haven't cracked the seal yet. It takes me quite a while to evaluate wax and that's why I don't do any videos on it. If I find something that impresses me, I will.

 

[Willis]

I had a feeling it was you, then I seen some thread down with your vids...The man behind the vids..Really cool brotha.

And the oil of the "M205" will cover some defects in the paint. May be he didnt express himself right. IDK. Not trying to bash or disrespect anyone And "YES" I agree with following the manufactures suggested use for the product. But you know pro guys need to try out different combos here and there. ;-) And Yes it was the same thing with me and getting the 101. I actually got it delivered to me right after my last post. Hahahaha. Cant wait to try it out. But on the Cuban cigars....Hmmm..If you have some laying around at your summer mansion in Cuba let me know... ;-)

And yeah try out poxy and see how you like it. I was skeptical when I first got it. But I actually like it. Downside is it takes 30-45 min to cure. Its dry here in Vegas but I say the LSP like the longer end of the curing time.

 

[Junkman2008]

No cigars here, the smell wreaks havoc on my sinuses. I didn't realize that Cuba was off limits to US citizens. I had this hot Cuban babe almost talk me into going over there with her to visit her family. Once I found out is was off limits, I decided to keep my chocolate butt here in the USA.

 

[TrackAire]

I had a feeling it was you, then I seen some thread down with your vids...The man behind the vids..Really cool brotha.

And the oil of the "M205" will cover some defects in the paint. May be he didnt express himself right. IDK. Not trying to bash or disrespect anyone And "YES" I agree with following the manufactures suggested use for the product. But you know pro guys need to try out different combos here and there. ;-) And Yes it was the same thing with me and getting the 101. I actually got it delivered to me right after my last post. Hahahaha. Cant wait to try it out. But on the Cuban cigars....Hmmm..If you have some laying around at your summer mansion in Cuba let me know... ;-)

Willis,

Not many know this about me, but in my previous life I was an M101 delivery mule for the East Coast Detailers Cartel....I would smuggle M101 past customs and the EPA in bottles of Jergens hand lotion. I have since retired from that lifestyle and spend my days on car forums

I may have some of my European manufacturers send me some "samples" of M101 to try it...I've heard nothing but good reviews. Too bad our EPA are such *******.

Regarding fillers and oils in the M205, that kind of makes sense....I've got old eyes, but they're not that old. After cutting with M105 and polishing with M205, the hood looked really, really good. I used a bright halogen light to check my progress and although I could see the surface was not perfect, I was more than happy with the results since a "normal' person would never see the waterspots, even in the sun. (this is not a show truck, but a work truck that gets dirty very often). I drove the truck in the sun and the temps were in the high 80's and being black the hood gets hot quickly. About a week later, I notice the waterspots are much more noticeable. If either one of you wants to PM an email address, I'll send you so pics I shot with my phone while cutting a polishing so you can see the results.

I do believe that the spots are etched into the the clear coat pretty deep. As soon as we get some cooler days, I'll give it another go and cut it again and see if I can lessen the watersposts.

Junkman.....you can get into Cuba through another country like Mexico...it is pretty easy if you go on a "learning excercise". I have friends that are in the medical field and use that as the reason to go to "learn" about Cuban medicine. In reality they are going there to party and have a very good time. I do not recommend you take a female friend (unless she is only a "friend") since your chocolate butt will have more female attention than you could ever imagine. Foreigners are considered very rich and the Cuban women will be all over you.....you may never want to come back

Cheers,
George

 

[Junkman2008]

Junkman.....you can get into Cuba through another country like Mexico...it is pretty easy if you go on a "learning excercise". I have friends that are in the medical field and use that as the reason to go to "learn" about Cuban medicine. In reality they are going there to party and have a very good time. I do not recommend you take a female friend (unless she is only a "friend") since your chocolate butt will have more female attention than you could ever imagine. Foreigners are considered very rich and the Cuban women will be all over you.....you may never want to come back

Cheers,
George

lol! Trust me, if I ever do go, I WON'T be taking a female!

I just hope that Castro allows me to come back!

 

[Willis]

Hahahahaha...Good Times!!!..George and Junkman you guys are a riot..Are any of you guys coming to SEMA?

 

[TrackAire]

Yup, I'll be at SEMA. I was just in Vegas last weekend for the UFC Expo at the Mandalay Bay. Seems like Vegas is starting to come back a little....overall attitudes seemed more positive when talking to the locals.

Cheers,
George

 

[Junkman2008]

Vegas is just a tad bit far for me!

 

[KNG SNKE]

After getting my car professionally detail a year and a half ago I use opti seal periodically. No wax for me and I can tell you I have some really, and I mean really good looking paint.. Opti seal is the way to go

 

[Willis]

Track- The Expo was decent...I coach and been training BJJ/MT?MMA for over 12 years now. lol. Slowly getting old. Had a lot of friends over there. I hope you enjoyed it. And yeah Vegas is picking up slowly. Do you train in any art? Are you driving to Vegas? Roll by the shop if you got time..

Junk- Its not that far brotha. C'mon down!!

KNG- I say this with only much respect. But even the most OCD detailer, will still leave some marring in the paint over a year of washing, unless it hardy gets taken out of the garage. But its still good to throw some LSP on top of Opti Seal after washes.

 

[TrackAire]

Track- The Expo was decent...I coach and been training BJJ/MT?MMA for over 12 years now. lol. Slowly getting old. Had a lot of friends over there. I hope you enjoyed it. And yeah Vegas is picking up slowly. Do you train in any art? Are you driving to Vegas? Roll by the shop if you got time..

Junk- Its not that far brotha. C'mon down!!

KNG- I say this with only much respect. But even the most OCD detailer, will still leave some marring in the paint over a year of washing, unless it hardy gets taken out of the garage. But its still good to throw some LSP on top of Opti Seal after washes.

Willis,

Actually my 18 year old daughter has been training in MMA for a little over a year. My wife and I took her to the Expo as a reward for doing well in school, life, etc. After meeting with a couple of the Expo vendors, she actually received sponsorship offers from two of them for cloths and training equipment if they could use her photos, etc. She's actually worked SEMA and other trade shows for us so she is really good working the crowd and is good at selling what she is representing. The Expo was crazy with people waiting in lines for 5 or 6 hours just to get a autograph or pic with their favorite UFC star. GSP was over the top with people waiting meet him. I really enjoyed the Grapplers Quest competition which is something my daughter wants to compete in also.

I'll definately contact you as SEMA gets closer.


Cheers,
George

 

[KNG SNKE]

KNG- I say this with only much respect. But even the most OCD detailer, will still leave some marring in the paint over a year of washing, unless it hardy gets taken out of the garage. But its still good to throw some LSP on top of Opti Seal after washes.

Not sure where that came from because I never said it wouldn't. I said that a year and a half later without using wax I still have outstanding paint. I also wash my car properly and in straight lines so any marring that is still there is minimal and caused by me. The washing properly helps the most but I'm merely saying I don't use wax and my paint remains beautiful and since the detailing I can easily spot those micro abrasions.

 

[Junkman2008]

Washing your car properly will eliminate any damage being created during the wash process. I wash mine in every direction there is and I don't create any damage either. Of course, the 2-bucket method that I use and have posted here is pretty much a guaranteed way to avoid any damage during the wash process.

 

[KNG SNKE]

Washing your car properly will eliminate any damage being created during the wash process. I wash mine in every direction there is and I don't create any damage either. Of course, the 2-bucket method that I use and have posted here is pretty much a guaranteed way to avoid any damage during the wash process.

I use your method. There will always be some sort of damage no matter how much soap or how lightly you rub, it is inevitable. Yes it is super small micro damage but it will be there one way or another. The stuff your lifting off your paint will contact your paint at some point during the contact with the sponge. Soap can only lift so much off the paint. It does significantly reduce the amount of damage caused though.

 

[Willis]

KNG- I didnt mean it that way bud. I apologize. I was still thinking of another Q someone asked me a little before posting that. And I in no way was trying to imply you were not washing it incorrectly. I am sorry it came across that way. And you and Junkman are correct the 2 bucket method is the standard for washing a vehicle. I use my foam gun as well with that procedure.

George- Big Congrats to your daughter. Curious what clothing line...GQ/NAGA are amazing events. Does she roll in gi or nogi? Wish I knew earlier, would of gotten you some media passes. You would of been Super DAD for sure...Not saying your not already...

 

[TrackAire]

KNG- I didnt mean it that way bud. I apologize. I was still thinking of another Q someone asked me a little before posting that. And I in no way was trying to imply you were not washing it incorrectly. I am sorry it came across that way. And you and Junkman are correct the 2 bucket method is the standard for washing a vehicle. I use my foam gun as well with that procedure.

George- Big Congrats to your daughter. Curious what clothing line...GQ/NAGA are amazing events. Does she roll in gi or nogi? Wish I knew earlier, would of gotten you some media passes. You would of been Super DAD for sure...Not saying your not already...

Willis,

Sorry, I did not see your reply regarding the MMA stuff. Since this is getting way off topic, I'll PM you the details.

Thanks,
George