Next Gen Viper scrapped? Current Gen to be built to 2011

[sachin]

The Dodge Viper Is Dead: In Lieu Of Flowers, Please Send R&D Funds

Who would win in a fight between a 3-headed hell hound and a snake? In a case important to a great number of high-horsepower-lovin' enthusiasts, it appears it's going to be Satan's canine.

In all the hoopla over the past few weeks about Dodge's new entry to the Muscle Car Wars, the media stories popping up hinting Chrysler may be thinking about discontinuing the Dodge Viper have gone relatively ignored by the majority of the product press. Unfortunately for those with a love of the serpentine-named supercar, we've learned through several of our sources that the decision to kill off the next generation of the Dodge Viper has already been made.

The next generation Viper roadster, referred to internally as ZC-D27 -- and ZC-D29 in the case of the coupe -- are no longer part of Chrysler LLC's future plans. They've been shuttled to the side -- we're assuming as part of "Project Genesis," the new game plan "intended to align the needs and wants of the customer with its [Chrysler's] product portfolio and the dealer network." Or perhaps it was part of "Project Alpha" the game plan prior to "Genesis" and before Cerberus really got a good look at the books. All we know is the decision was made during the period Cerberus has been running the show in Auburn Hills.

In other words: ****.

Originally, the new version of Dodge's halo car was set to start rolling down the assembly line in January of 2009 alongside two Chrysler badged platform mates. These two new Chrysler branded performance vehicles were to be modeled after the Firepower concept car. The first one, a roadster, was given the internal name ZC-C27, and a coupe version was given the internal name ZC-C29. However we know the decision to kill the Chrysler-brand versions was made sometime in the middle of last year.

This certainly would've hurt the business case for the entire "ZC" program. The Viper is hand built at the Connor Avenue Assembly Plant. A plant that, without the Firepower, would do nothing but build Vipers and the big V10 engines that go in them. Its a plant that we're fairly certain Chrysler's new Six Sigma-loving management would probably like to close.

The general unrest and financial struggles of Chrysler played a huge role as well. When this embattled company chooses how to spend their R&D money, they have to choose very carefully. Sadly there are many other vehicles in the Chrysler lineup that need attention before they can start to think about a low volume, ******** sports car again -- halo status be damned.

What now?

Chrysler recently launched the freshened, more powerful, fourth generation Viper for the 2008 model year. Original plans had this car being built for only two model years. It was meant to be a stop-gap model until the next generation "ZC" car could be brought online. Now that an all new Viper won't happen, sources tell us that the fourth generation Viper will instead be built until around the 2011 model year. We'd also venture a guess that so long as the fourth gen is being built, a few of the track prepped ACR models will continue to trickle out of the factory.

What happens after 2011? That's a question we don't yet have an answer for.

It's hard to imagine Chrysler leaving the halo car market for good -- but we're thinking the future will call for a more affordable halo. Not just more affordable for the buyer but more affordable for Chrysler build. We know they'll want something that can still put up a fight with the Corvette -- at least the base model -- but at the same time, be much closer to the Corvette's base MSRP.

In the next one or two years, we can only a hope a concept car pops up on the auto show circuit that can give some hope for an all new, SRT hot rod. For now though, we mourn the loss of a legend

 

[InjectTheVenom]

I'm only reading rumors.. where are the quoted sources that explicitly say what really is going on? I'm getting sick and tired of all this rumor bullsh!t when no one really knows what is going on and blurt out their opinion as facts.

 

[Socrates]

I was just reading this myself:

Has Cerberus killed the Viper? - Autoblog

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

Sounds fine to me.

10yrs for gen I & II and 10yrs for gen III & IV. It was nice that they tried but, business is business.

I also liked the fact that they were working off the the Firepower design.

What ever 2011 brings I'm sure it will be badassss. IMO

 

[mjf6175]

The Test of Three. Keep this philosophy in mind the next time you hear or are about to repeat a rumor.

In ancient Greece (469 - 399 BC), Socrates (I am talking about the real one, not the poster above who uses this name as luck would have it) was widely lauded for his wisdom. One day the great philosopher came upon an acquaintance, who ran up to him excitedly and said, "Socrates, do you know what I just heard about one of your students...? "Wait a moment," Socrates replied. "Before you tell me, I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Test of Three." "The TEST of THREE?" the man asked. That's correct," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me about my student let's take a moment to test what you're going to say. The first test is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?" "No," the man replied, "actually I just heard about it." "All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second test, the test of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my student something good?" "No, on the contrary . . . " "So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me something bad about him even though you're not certain it's true?" The man shrugged, a little embarrassed. Socrates continued, "You may still pass though because there is a third test- the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my student going to be useful to me?" "No, not really . . " "Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me is neither True nor Good nor even Useful, why tell it to me at all?" The man was defeated and ashamed and said no more. This is the reason Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem.

It also explains why Socrates didn't find out that Plato was banging his wife.

I thought a little humor (with a hint of truth) might be helpful when reading such BAD news.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

I say strike three: sounds far from true because everyone is talking beside one another (last I read from Chris/Y2K5SRT was that the Viper is going to continue for a long while and that the Viper is Dodge's mainstay?), we can only agree that it is not good either, and landing on 3 with nothing being confirmed it is also far from useful.
But do people listen anymore these days?

 

[dave6666]

I just ordered my '11 FE, or so rumor has it...

 

[Vipermann]

Conflicting perspective:

Motor Trend magazine (March):

"Asked about Camaro's long-range future, ... Bob Lutz responds, I think anything in high volumes that falls outside of 35 mpg is out of the question. Translation, niche players like Corvette ZR1s and CTS-V have a future, 50,000-plus-selling Camaros and Challengers -- not so much."

If you're talking niche player (and profitable), I'd say the Viper fits that role. On the otherhand, any Challengers built will be instant collector's items, and gone before you can blink.

And with the current Viper running until 2011, that still leaves lots of time for management to consider keeping it. Think about it. The market could improve or ownership could change again, anytime before the end of 2009, and there could still be a new Viper in 2012, if the opportunity looked promising. This new Gen4, buying Dodge more time, was absolutely the best move they could have made.

But just the same, I'm sure glad that I have an '08 on-order.

 

[RayG]

It also explains why Socrates didn't find out that Plato was banging his wife.

Thank you, funniest thing I've read in a while!

 

[sween]

doesn't make any sense to discontinue at 2011 because 2012 will be the 20th aniversary of the viper

 

[chimazo]

Both Autoblog.com and Jalopnik.com are typically quite accurate and reliable, and not in the business of rumors. Detroit insiders feed many of these sites and would never go on record, obviously.

Unlike GM, which uses its LSx engines for a broad variety of vehicles (trucks, SUV's, Corvette, CTS-v, future Camaro), what else in the Chrysler lineup shares any drivetrain component with the Viper? If it was your business, how could you justify any future development costs?

 

[redtanrt10]

I'm not here to predict the Viper's demise but I'll tell you that being here in SF at the national auto dealer convention, things are ugly for Chrysler and Cerberus. they've just come off roadshows with their Genesis plan that will elimate alot of dealers and products. I sat in the JD Power industry franchise assessment that painted a very poor picture. Dealers and company employees are concerned. The car market this year will be very difficult and they don't have cash. Best hope for Viper and chrysler is that Cerberus can sell the company, soon!

 

[ViperTony]

Unless Chrysler gets an infusion of cash I can see why they would want to divert R&D funds away from CAPP and Viper. From a penny-wise/pound-foolish perspective it makes sense for Nardelli. I'll tell you this...if the Viper goes away I will never buy another Dodge again.

 

[sween]

if the Viper goes away I will never buy another Dodge again.

My brother is on the waiting list for an 09 challenger after hearing this hes considering the new camaro.

 

[RMBSRT]

The key to the Vipers succes...the V10... will be the reason for its demise. The V10 does not fit in Chryslers future. Period.

 

[Vipermann]

Unlike GM, which uses its LSx engines for a broad variety of vehicles (trucks, SUV's, Corvette, CTS-v, future Camaro), what else in the Chrysler lineup shares any drivetrain component with the Viper? If it was your business, how could you justify any future development costs?

Sort of true, but I don't see it as a perfect comparison. The not-yet-introduced Camaro is as dead as the new Challenger will be from Chrysler. Both likely will be axed (or dramatically diluted, e.g. 35 mpg) soon after launch -- they were concepts from another era -- before Hybrids.

If you think about it, the big V8 (or V10) is really what is going to eventually go away in a few years ... world-wide. The US is headed in the direction of Europe and Asia, with smaller 4 and 6 cylinder engines (and others) everywhere. Although Europeans also enjoy more powerful cars, they are a luxury with production that is partially rationalized with the help of exports to the US -- I'll bet those European V8s largely cannot exist without the up-until-now built-in demand for those engines in the US market. With the US changing to a 35 mpg average standard, even imports will be affected, and they won't be able to continue rationalize the development of those engines without the large numbers to be sold in the US.

The beauty of the Viper (if there is any financial silver lining) oddly might be that it is small. I would guess it's about a $160MM - $180MM stand-alone company, (excluding parts) in terms of new vehicle sales. Chrysler could probably continue to rationalize the car if they forget about any dramatic future development, just slow 'evolution' and improvement -- like Porsche did when it was a smaller company back in the 70s. The real issue might be, that, aside from the dedicated dealers here, many other Dodge dealers don't want the hassle of carrying parts or training for service, etc., for a car when they sell only 1-2 per year. Now, with dealers in a tense exchange with Chrysler, there may be even less 'love' to keep the Viper alive. It may be that our demands to keep the Viper (or we'll buy other makes), needs to be directed towards some of the dealers??? The dealers need to demand that Chrysler keep the Viper.

I wonder if we would continue to support the Viper if an investor group with somebody like Panoz or Saleen bought the entire brand/operation from Chrysler (exactly because it has very little dependencies with the rest of the product line)? ... Then take the brand, and focus on nothing, but performance, and racing competition. I assume there's some kind of 'out' on the 35 mpg issue for small stand-alone custom car builders. (I'll volunteer to help, if anybody can scratch the cash to make an offer. )

 

[GTSRboy2000]

Re: W.T.F. Viper RIP

i thinki its BS, Chrylsers image will go into the toilet if it 'kills off' its Halo car

 

[Early93Viper]

Horrible news

 

[bluestreak]

The good thing is that everyone is doing their last HURRAH with a big HP motor. Because they'll all be cut short real soon. With the rise in hp and less capable non-chalant drivers, you can only put so much hp in a care and not get sued when someone wrecks it. 600 hp will be just fine, there arent any 700-800 + hp cars coming from anywhere other than the unique supercar makers. The ZR-1 wont be getting any faster, neither will the NA Z06 by more than a few hp.

We've seen the hp wars come and we'll see them go just as fast. There is no coincidence that all kinds of makers are shoveling out big hp cars, because they know the end is coming. Prius's for everyone in a few years. There was no where left to go for the Viper anyways, the ********* image is dead and gone, people want gadgets and luxury now, even with their sport.

 

[Warfang]

The key to the Vipers succes...the V10... will be the reason for its demise. The V10 does not fit in Chryslers future. Period.

You are correct. The best business decision for Cerberus is to sell off the Viper brand and assets. It would be insanely stupid to just can a profitable program when you can sell it. Since there is no competition in their product line... why not?

Bring back Herb to head it and all will be happy... one can dream right?

 

[Warfang]

...the ********* image is dead and gone, people want gadgets and luxury now, even with their sport.

Speak for yourself.

 

[viper spray]

This is all pure speculation at this point , don't jump ship before it takes on water.........

 

[RTTTTed]

Just because Hondas and Toyotas are the best selling cars in the US doesn't mean that we won't have Vipers and other high quality cars for sale in the future. I've never owned and never will own "the best selling cars in the US", because I hate them. When people ranted about Supras beign such a great car I always asked them, "How can you say a Supra is a high quality car?" When they pointed to the $90,000 price tag, I repeated my question after explaining that 50% of the retail price was an import tax." I'll never undertstand why anyone would pay 100% extra taxes for a little car with hardly any power.

Chrysler/Dodge will no longer have one of the fastest cars ever built as soon as they go bankrupt - unless they change direction and then the company may as well go into the toilet quickly.

Ted

 

[TexasSnake]

If the Viper's production is ceased, I wonder what will happen with the parts business? Will parts get even more ridiculously expensive and/or will it eventually get to the point where you can't find parts for them? Will other aftermarket companies go into business to produce their parts?

I would hate to see the end of the production of the Vipers for sure. It would be like losing part of our American culture, but I would hate it even worse if we couldn't even get parts for our cars anymore!!!

The only positive aspect I can think of if they did cease production would be that Vipers could probably be looked at as an investment years down the road if they were kept immaculate with low mileage.

What is this country coming to? Americans have thrived off fast, gas guzzling cars for years...leave our toys alone you European minded b*stards!!! Let's end this silly concept of killing American culture and think positive! If it's not the Viper, it will be some other model of adrenaline pumping, gaz guzzling, loud and impractical car we will have no choice but to fall in love with!!!

Smile...it'll work out.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Speak for yourself.

Don't pay bluestreak any mind. He just trolls over here, drops his GM and electronic nanny crap that he can't drive without and then leaves for a while.

 

[Nsane1]

Vipermann: Great point, I didnt't think about a potential sale of viper... I wonder if Cereberus would consider it.. Even not being made, have MADE the viper still gives the company cache, but being a normal greedy company now, the $$ will speak louder than cache... That would be pretty cool... Oh well, it was a good ride. Myself, I refuse to go the prius route, call me a dinosaur, I guess I have to go upmarket until they make those no more fun either...

 

[Coloviper]

If the Viper program and plant operations are profitable and the car is still in demand, than it is a very prime asset to be sold.

Corporations sometimes make decisions that make no sense to the common man. It has nothing to do with desire, lack of heart or lack of effort. Once confidence is shot in the operations and by the ***, then the accountants get control and all they look at are the numbers. They are truly unbiased because they don't know a thing about the operations except the bottomline. To get back on side with their bank ratios and conventents, they will need to try to get as cash positive and that means selling certain profitable aspects that make no sense the rest of us. In my businesses, I have always subscribed to the rationale of working and concentrating on increasing your revenue, not cut costs to appease accountants. Without the money coming in, the rest is all ancilliary anyway. No money in, means no money to control. Too many companys die because they spend all their time controlling costs and cutting costs as opposed to working on increasing revenue and their products to bring money in. Once revenue is up, then they can look at profitability closer. It starts with revenue though.

Agreed that the Viper models and more importantly the tooling and production line are really a seperate division and can easily be rolled off. I am not sure about Saleen purchasing them right now though, because Hanpark (Saleen/ASC parent) just waits for Chapter 11 situations to gobble up for cheap. Right now is not prime time for them, but if Cerebus files Chapter 11, it is very possible.

Hanpark has very, very recently moved ALL Saleen production to Michigan and Saleen/ASC will all be under one room I believe. Saleen closed down the Irvine Spectrum store. Saleen, Irvine still exists for some R&D and corporate reasons which probably have everthing to do with leases on the CA buildings, etc. Once those are honored, I expect Saleen to pull out completely from CA. This is very inevitable as all the passion and engineering talent is in MI. You want to be a player in this automotive industry, be prepared to be in MI. It is that simple.

Personally I would like to see Saleen purchase the Viper models and production facility, but don't expect this to even come up unless Cerebus goes **** up. everything has to fall into place for that to happen.

However to the comment of "we will all be driving Priuss". I can say there are many older cars I will drive before that ever happens. The Priuss on the road should be called by their real name which is really to just drop the RI from the name. they serve a purpose to the masses and that is fine, but I have never been in the herd. Doubt many on this board are either.

The way things are going, Hanpark could be the HP specialty car company for all America. That is not a bad thing. Saleen is the ONLY US Federaly recognized Small Vehicle Manufacturer in America. This does allow them to work off of a seperate set of rules that do not apply to the big manufacturers. Exemptions, special rulings, etc. all exist. As far as I know, which I am not in the know much is that Saleen needs to comply with emissions and saftey regulations but they have never been held back to CAFE rulings on mpg, etc.

In the end, this might be the only way to truly save the American Muscle/Sports car for a while until the technology and HP can catch up to the mpg challenges. HOWEVER, I believe their are production limits to these rules for Saleen. If this all takes place, be prepared for the fact, you might not get a new Viper or Saleen because they are all sold and they can not go over a certain allotment. Also be prepared to pay a horrible gas guzzler tax which should go into the stratosphere in the future. All prices to pay to play.

Or buy a good used one, but demand will always be there. Costs could go, .......who knows where. The Viper could be the Shelby of our generation. It is very, very possible.

As far as the 20th Anniversary models? Well we have a long time between now and then, but Saleen is able to put together special, very low production Anniversary models and not have to go through as much red tape on the cars due to quantity and their status.They always have. Their own 25th, Silver Sterling Anniversary S302E Saleen Mustang model is being produced in quanities of only 25. 620HP and a host of firsts for the Mustang. $100K tag. Looks very impressive but I have owned many Saleens for over 20 years now and have been recently bitten by a different snake. I just can not justify this car over a Viper for the same price. However a very limited run of 20 VERY Special 20th Anniversary Viper cars is very dooable for them.

Very interesting times, and I am sure much more in the future. I wouldn't worry about it, life always finds a way.

 

[Coloviper]

It's all speculation though.

 

[snake-charmer]

I've been afraid something like this would happen, given the Viper's relatively low volume of production. With this 35MPG crap those that DO survive are only likely to get much more expensive and harder to get, as production will be artifically constrained to meet the 35MPG target.

Looks like the next 10 years or so will be a busy car buying time, as I can't see anything coming in the 35MPG era that is going to be the least bit interesting to me.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Horrible news. Too bad they couldnt scrap the Challenger instead though I love that model too but not at the cost of the Viper. Viper should have been the last thing chopped.