ROE - Crank Pin kit - detailed pics of what it really does.

-FROG-

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From all the research I have been doing with installing my Paxton Supercharger, I am discovering that the harmonic balancer on these cars are not "keyed" and they "can" spin loose. I also come from the world of "Fox Body Mustang 5.0's and we always replaced the balancers because the stock ones fall apart. The stock Viper balancer looks the same as the 5.0's.... ugggg... So with all of the money and time invested in the car, I decided it would be best to spend another $400+ on an ATI balancer. Well, that means I had to pull off my stock one that I already "pinned" with the Roe Crankshaft pin kit. So after pulling it off, I was able to see how everything "seats".

To my discover upon removing the balancer last night, the pin kit looks like is really "keys" the crank well. These pins are rated at about 7,000 lbs of shear force. There are pins that also do come with the Paxton blower kits but my research has shown me that those pins are small and shear off, so consider tossing that pin kit in the trash if you have it and go with the ROE kit.

The ROE kit comes with a LARGE heavy duty guide plate that bolts to the balancer so you don't make any errors in drilling out the crank. The kit is about $80 or so... and recommended for any supercharged car but also many folks recommend them on stock applications because people have actually lost their harmonic balancer in stock cars and it can and will cause damage, even damaging the crank which is a very expensive fix.
So, I hope not to scare anyone with this thread but from all of the research, I decided to put what I have found together for future "searches" on this topic and to help folks prevent damage to their cars.

To remove the crank bolt, put on the E-Brake, put the car in 1st gear and have someone get in the car and hold the brake. Use a cheater bar or torque bar to unscrew the bolt. When installing the bolt, do the same thing. The bolt should be torqued to 250 or 300 ft lbs, depending on your year. Also, use the Red loctite on the threads... that's what everyone is doing.


Things I have found:

1) The Harmonic Balancer is NOT keyed. It is simply "pressed" on from the factory. This is a NO-NO Dodge!!! MORONS....

2) The large Crank bolt is threaded normally, not "reverse threaded". This is also a problem, because from the spinning motion of the engine, it can assist in "loosening" the bolt and then your balancer works it's way off.

3) If your balance works it's way off, you can damage the crank, but it is a bit unlikely because the crank is so darn hard and strong. It is likely that you will damage the front seal and start to leak oil.

4) IF YOU HAVE AN OIL LEAK IN THE FRONT OF THE ENGINE... it may be that the front seal is damaged because the balancer is working it's way off. Check the balancer.

5) If you notice your belt is scuffing or getting tears, check your balancer, because it is rubbing from slippping off.

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Here is the kit from ROE - Crankshaft Pin Tool, ALL Vipers & SRT-10 Ram Trucks


The crank pin was not that hard to install, but I did also have many components removed from the front of the engine so it made it easier. Many people use an "angle drill" but screw that... that would take me forever and I am really impatient when it comes to stuff like that. To make it easier, I removed the fan and also unbolted the front "anti sway bar" and let the bar hang down. That allowed me to get my drill in there at an angle with little problem. I did go through (4) 1/4 bits though because I was pushing too hard and dulled the bits, so one may consider buying a few backup bits.

More pics and info on my Supercharger project for any other useful info - http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/648694-FROG-s-Viper-GTS-Paxton-Supercharger-project-pics.


Here is a little trick of how I spun the crank to get to the other hole to drill:

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Pics after drilling the holes:

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Pins were tapped in with a hammer. Had to slightly grind off a little of one of the pins to make it flush

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Here are the pictures of how the pin kit really "keys" the crank well.

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Fatboy 18

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You can clean up that damper with a wire brush and a bit of grit paper, it looks much better like this ;)

I did not like the aesthetic look of the old crankshaft damper, so I rubber it down with Emery paper and sprayed it with Hammerite (rattle can) smooth gloss black paint.
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You can see the damper in this pic (behind Dave's Big Brakes under drive pulley)
Note also the new water pump pulley and idler wheel.
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My final set up :)
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Fatboy 18

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Sorry -Frog-, Forgot to say,...... Great pics, thanks for posting. :1up:

Do you know if replacement pins are available? I have the Roe Crank damper Jig and drill, (given to me by a friend) but do not have any pins?
 
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-FROG-

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You can clean up that damper with a wire brush and a bit of grit paper, it looks much better like this ;)

I did not like the aesthetic look of the old crankshaft damper, so I rubber it down with Emery paper and sprayed it with Hammerite (rattle can) smooth gloss black paint.

Careful using the stock balancer... That's why people get rid of stock and go with performance balancers like ATI. They stock ones seperate. That is part of the point of this thread. NO pins and they seperate. The rubber rots and they break then your motor is toast. I had about 3 go out in my Mustangs because the rubber rots. ATI balancers are solid with no rubber. Below are examples of what I am talking about that is BAD about stock rubber balancers:


See, the rubber ring is destroyed:

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Here is a good comparison from a stock balancer to a new ATI.

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-FROG-

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Sorry -Frog-, Forgot to say,...... Great pics, thanks for posting. :1up:

Do you know if replacement pins are available? I have the Roe Crank damper Jig and drill, (given to me by a friend) but do not have any pins?

I'm not sure. I assume they might can send you more pins seperate frmo the kit. Might need to call and check with them, I haven't asked them yet.
 

CEJ

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Very useful write-up Frog. I've been thinking about the pin kit. Would it be necessary to have both pins inserted, or would drilling one hole and using one pin be sufficient?

Fatboy, your engine looks great!

Has anyone had their OEM damper break? There are some companies that can rebuild a stock balancer, as that had to be done a lot with the old 289 hi-po balancers when the rubber started to deteriorate.
 
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-FROG-

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Very useful write-up Frog. I've been thinking about the pin kit. Would it be necessary to have both pins inserted, or would drilling one hole and using one pin be sufficient?

Fatboy, your engine looks great!

Has anyone had their OEM damper break? There are some companies that can rebuild a stock balancer, as that had to be done a lot with the old 289 hi-po balancers when the rubber started to deteriorate.

If you are doing one pin, might as well do the other. You just spin the crank and repeat the process so not sure it would be worth "gambeling" one pin. Also, not sure if a single pin would add any vibration or "harmonics" so might as well try to even it out. About rebuilding... I know it would be cheaper, but if it's "doomed for failure" then it just makes sense to me, to go ahead and replace it with one that won't break. I think there are cheaper ones than ATI out there, but for me, since everything was off and being done now, I couldn't pass on spending the $450 for the ATI to save the thousands it takes to replace an engine. In all my personal research, I might have seen where 1 or maybe 2 Balancers broke on Vipers / Viper trucks, but the main problem is that they loosen up, due to NOT being pinned.
 

speedracervr4

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Thanks for the write up!! Please let us know how the ATI Install goes with having to modify the holes. I have the Roe pin kit installed on my 99 Supercharged GTS, but I might be upgrading my damper when I do my heads/cam upgrade.
 

Nine Ball

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I'm surprised to see the pins appear to be some sort of tubing and are hollow. A solid pin would have more shear resistance.
 
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-FROG-

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I'm surprised to see the pins appear to be some sort of tubing and are hollow. A solid pin would have more shear resistance.

I somewhat agree... like a big ol' nail cut to fit and hammered in there... or something like that would seem stronger... I guess since they are "roll pins" it allows them to fit in snugly keeping pressure on the area so nothing slips, introducing any shearing. 7,000lbs of shear force seems good enough (from ROE). I didn't find any failures in the ROE pins in all my research. The only pins that failed were the ones that come with the Paxton supercharger kit and I have not seen those to know what they look like or how small they are.

Here's a thought... why not thread the holes once drilled out and insert a few of these? I bet that would hold like CRAZY and never fail!

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:)
 

lxadeuce

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I had my harmonic balancer come off and I pinned it with the ROE kit. i lost the pins somehow before installation so i used the shaft of (2) 1/4 inch drill bits. I figured that a drill bit would be at least as strong as the pins. I have not had any issues since. getting 250 lb ft of torque on that bolt is quite the ***** though
 
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-FROG-

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I had my harmonic balancer come off and I pinned it with the ROE kit. i lost the pins somehow before installation so i used the shaft of (2) 1/4 inch drill bits. I figured that a drill bit would be at least as strong as the pins. I have not had any issues since. getting 250 lb ft of torque on that bolt is quite the ***** though

hmmm.... I have a few 1/4 drill bits that are dull too. I think I may actually cut and use those like you did, instead of the roll pins when I put the ATI balancer on. Thanks for the idea!
 

Sonoman

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McMaster-Carr is a good source for any standard size of dowel pins or slotted roll pins in your choice of metals (including hardened alloy steel and black-oxide alloy steel). I order from them frequently and they are extremely quick to process even tiny orders (my company often gets hardware over-nighted). Their 1/4" slotted spring pins are rated at 7,000 pounds breakage strength, probably identical to the ones in the kit. A solid 1/4" pin has 10,000 pounds breakage strength but does not stay put the way a slotted spring pin will.
 

Nine Ball

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Neither pin should fall out once the crank bolt is installed. I'd still rather see solid pins, and the drill bit idea is clever!
 

proedge

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sorry to bump this old thread. Since ROE doesn't exist anymore, I'm trying to find some info. I purchased the pin kit from them back in 2015 and used it on an old car of mine. I still have the guide, but don't know which bolts to use with it and what size drill bit and pins to use. Anyone have any info? The old pics in this thread no longer work, so I'm hoping someone has some new ones

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Ramtuff

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With a bit size of .249 and a pin size of .257 I’m going out on a limb and say roll pins…..
 

proedge

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They're roll pins. I don't think solid pins would be as secure. Roll pins are larger in diameter, as Ramtuff pointed out and expand when hammered in
 

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