1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

SCT for the Gen 5

Discussion in 'Generation V Discussions / SRT Coupe, GTS, GTC, AC' started by Jack B, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    You are far oversimplifying the problem, and forgetting the fact that the VENOM controller is an integral part of the BUS communications of damn near a dozen other modules in the car. Everything from climate control to airbags and all of the dash functions.

    If you just want to run the ENGINE, no problem. But there is far more to it than that.
     
  2. ViperSmith

    ViperSmith Enthusiast

    Posts:
    2,918
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Location:
    Tysons Corner, VA
    I'd help where I could, fellow NoVA'r
     
  3. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

    Posts:
    6,957
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Location:
    Miami
    Great. How far along are you? What is a hard date for its availability? What kind of supercharger? Made by whom? When will a Gen V kit be available? How much will it have been durability tested? How much will it cost including installation? Will it have a warranty available like the kit for the Gen III's had? And last, but not least, how many hours do you envision that it will take to install it?

     
  4. donk_316

    donk_316 Enthusiast

    Posts:
    49
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2013
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Understood. Then what about a piggyback system like the Apexi Safc or whatever the hell it was called back in the day. Tells the venom what it wants to hear in regards to the engine but tells the engine to do something else.
     
  5. Wolfc2e

    Wolfc2e Viper Owner

    Posts:
    522
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Location:
    Catharpin
    That won't work on the modern bus architecture. As Dan said, there is no direct communication from any one component to another, all traffic is broadcast on a shared line and used by a large number of processors.
     
  6. DMan

    DMan Viper Owner

    Posts:
    1,855
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Location:
    Maryland
    Why is it I envision a spot light shining in his face while these questions are fired away at him???? lol

    I see the thread and get excited & Mark has to bring us back to reality. OK,OK, but it's progress .. if they could sell the damn gen5's better then maybe the market would stiffen enough to help interest. (haha, I said stiffen)

    I know I'd put upfront money down on one, for gen4 or 5. My gen5 concerns are still hung up on the electronic gremlins with burnouts and tire spin with power getting pulled. Til I hear an answer on that front I'm not in for a gen5 ... yet.
     
  7. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    It will not work in an application like this. The crank and cam triggers are far more complex than most of those types of units would be able to handle, and that is just the start. The crank and cam trigger edges, which would be utilized to offset the ignition timing control, are also used for positioning of the variable camshaft. If you alter the ignition timing externally, you will also alter the latch offset angles for the cam control by default. This will lead to cam positioning errors. Fuel could probably be done this way, but it would be very limited in capability before it triggered a fault. All in all, its a lot of hassle for virtually no control.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  8. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    LOL, have you ever had the feeling you are under a microscope? :rolaugh:

    -We are in the middle of producing the production version of the controller, which as you can imagine is the key to making this all work. It has already been tested for functionality in prototype form. We already have Gen-4 cars running on standalone ECU's, and have built bar none the most technologically advanced Gen-4 on the road, without question. As soon as the production version is finished, we will be taking a volunteer who can supply a vehicle for the rest of development, as our test vehicle is too far from stock to allow proper testing at this point for something of this nature. We plan to see what can be done with a bone stock engine as far as normally aspirated is concerned with bolt-ons only, then will be testing the base blower kit, followed by the "upgraded" blower kit that includes certain engine mods. These are all things based on other cars we have already built, though we are moving many new techniques into the market that have never been used before.

    -Hard dates are made to be broken when it comes to prototyping. I won't give you a promise date until I can actually stick to it. We are shooting for January-ish for the base kits, soon after following the Upgrade kits if not along side.

    -Centrifugal type blower.

    -We are working with Paxton for certain components, but it will be our final design and sold exclusively through us.

    -Gen-5 kits I am hoping to have available in Spring.

    -Durability testing will be no different than any other correctly produced aftermarket products. ALL of the parts of these packages have been tested in previous iterations of builds, and none have showed any issues, at FAR greater stresses than these packages will produce. Most of the items have been tested on my own vehicles, or are currently installed in some form on daily driven Vipers. The only question mark at this time will be the long term durability of the OE Gen4 pistons, which we all know are a weak link. However, this is the reason we are trying to make the "upgrade" kit as attractive as possible price wise, to just eliminate that from the equation from the start. That being said, the power of the base kit will absolutely be limited to a safe level, and there will be MANY safety features in the control system to help prevent failures.

    -At this time, we are trying to keep the [parts] price of the base kit <15K, the upgrade kit <18K, and the Gen-5 kit is expected to be somewhere in the middle. Installation will be about 2.5K for basic configurations, and probably about 4-5K for the upgraded packages due to replacing the pistons. They are just estimates at the moment, but we expect it to be doable. I cannot go into detail, but if anyone knew what kind of powerful control system they will be getting for this price bracket, I would have people jumping out the windows for this stuff. Sorry though, too early to spill the beans just yet for multiple reasons. All systems are being intentionally designed to be forwards compatible with any future releases and additional equipment/upgrades.

    -Warranties would of course be supplied with packages installed here, or on parts themselves [within reason] sold in package form. Warranties will differ depending on the type of package bought. Higher level packages will get better warranties as we can better control the quality of what we are producing.

    -I would estimate that installation will be in the 12-15 hour range.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  9. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

    Posts:
    6,957
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Location:
    Miami
    Thanks for the answers Dan. No microscope. Just basic questions which anyone doing due diligence on a possible new mod that can have as dramatic effect as a supercharger on the drivetrain should do.

    I do not understand this sentence: "Higher level packages will get better warranties as we can better control the quality of what we are producing." Why would the quality be less on something more simple? Also, what do you mean by "powerful control system"? I thought that the kit would be based on the ability to recalibrate the existing OEM controller? When you say "your design", do you mean that you are not going to use an existing Novi 2000 or Novi 2500 supercharger with an intercooler setup similar to the Gen III set up? If Paxton or a similar company is not going to manufacture or put together all of the parts, are you saying that you are going to do so in house?

    Also, just to provide a bit of context to the due diligence process, I remember when Shawn Roe was trying to develop a positive displacement supercharger kit for the Gen III. Shawn tried his best and it sounded very promising for a while but the project ultimately did not pan out due to, among other issues, clearance issues. Expectation management, as you noted above, is important.


     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  10. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    -Its not that the quality of what we are doing will be less, it is that certain quality aspects, such as pistons, we cannot control if they are original. Plainly put, I cannot warranty parts for an extended period which are already a known weakness in the overall scope of the engine design, and absolutely not without an inspection [which doesn't make financial sense to do in the first place]. There have been failures of OE pistons even on Normally Aspirated cars, and for no apparent cause. They are not the most reliable component, and we cannot be expected to warranty Dodge's components on our dime. A warranty would be applying to work which we do, and parts which we install. On a package where we replace the pistons, we then know without question what the quality and strength was at the time of installation, and thus we can warranty the engine to a further degree. On a package we built with a stock engine, if the blower fails and the engine eats it, sure, we would warranty such a situation. But if a piston, rod, transmission, clutch, or diff fails that was never upgraded because the customer chose to not do so- those are well outside the scope of what we touched, and would not be warranteed. Its basically the same situation as any other build built anywhere in typical circumstances. I hope that makes sense...?

    -Not exactly, no. This thread crossed paths with the other thread on a different topic. At this time I cannot go into great detail on the tuning aspect, but it does not rely on re-flashing the OE controller, at least not at this point in time. It will be far and above the level of control that would be offered by the OE controller when complete. The idea is to make a Plug-And-Play solution in a completely different format than has been offered to this market in the past. These controllers will come pre-loaded with a calibration designed for a particular set of components, on a far more precise and powerful level than has ever been seen before in such a package design. The idea here is to allow total expandability so that customers will have quite literally the ability to build at will, and expand to even the most complicated builds.

    -Part of the package will be related to the Gen-3 and the Novi-2000 yes, after all they are similar engine designs. All of the differing components will either be made in house, or subcontracted. Paxton will of course be offered the contact if they are within the price range.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  11. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

    Posts:
    6,957
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Location:
    Miami
    Thank you again. More good data. But let's go back to the warranty issue for a moment. It seems to me that you will be able to offer a more robust warranty on a basic Gen V installation since the engine, per the public statement of Dick Winkles, was built for boost. Do you agree?

     
  12. TrackAire

    TrackAire Viper Owner

    Posts:
    1,523
    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Location:
    Vacaville, California
    I think we have to be very careful with the "forged" pistons in the Gen 5....If I remember correctly they are not of the highest quality or type. I'm sure Dan will clarify their potential for a FI application. I would
    definitely want SRT to clarify what they mean and what abuse the pistons can take.

    George
     
  13. Nine Ball

    Nine Ball Enthusiast

    Posts:
    3,411
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Gen 3 pistons aren't anything to brag about, yet they still hold up to years of 650-675 rwhp if the fuel/tune is correct and on the conservative side. The Gen 4 should be similar. Gen 5 should be capable of more.
     
  14. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

    Posts:
    6,957
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Location:
    Miami
    According to Dick Winkles, whom I trust knows what he is talking about, the pistons for the Gen 5 were based on the pistons developed for and used in the ACRX. This makes sense since Dick also publicly stated that they designed the Gen V engine internals to take a boost application because they recognized that many Viper owners like boost.

     
  15. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    No matter how you slice it, it is warrantying something that we technically did not build, nor have any way of inspecting. A warranty is based on the assumption that money made will greatly exceed the risk of having to repair the product that you sold. In the case of a basic installation, there was no money made on any engine related parts or labor, nor was any kind of an inspection possible. Therefore, it is a poor business choice to warranty those items directly, and its a very slippery slope to start putting warranties on things which directly netted zero income. This would technically be akin to me warrantying your wheels just because we put tires on them.
     
  16. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

    Posts:
    6,957
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Location:
    Miami
    Point taken. But keep in mind that Paxton offered a warranty on there kit which included drivetrain at a reasonable price. Yes. There were conditions but it was a good selling point.

     
  17. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    TrackAire is right on the money. There are MANY levels of forged pistons, which is just a process, not a design or even a material. The Gen-5 pistons were "forged" because they were tired of having Gen-4 engines fall apart on the track, and trust me, there were many. I have about 100 Gen-4 pistons sitting in a box on a shelf, and half that many chewed up ACRX slugs. Being a more boost-friendly piston design is just a side effect of having a stronger piston design. In no way, shape, or form are they truly an ideal forced induction piston- not even close.
     
  18. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

    Posts:
    6,957
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Location:
    Miami
    Have you spoken to Dick Winkles about that. He went through many different pistons before he had the manufacturer create a new variant for him for the ACRX. Do you know that he did not continue that process for the Gen V with boost in mind? The Gen V went through extensive durability testing ensuring its durability up to 200,000 miles.

     
  19. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    This is generally correct, yes. The problem is that Gen-4 appears to have a wider acceptable tolerance level with regard to strength. Some guys have no problems, while many others have issues that pop up for no apparent reason, especially on the track.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  20. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    And they were also charging additional money for this. If THAT was the case, sure, I would entertain the idea as I am sure they will be fine for reasonable package levels. But, to do it for free makes no business sense unless its being built into the cost anyway. I am trying to keep costs down, extras are extras.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  21. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA

    There is a difference between "having something in mind" and building intentionally for it. Even if it is technically a forged part and has a decently stong design, a 10:1+, flat top, short skirt, large quench piston design sitting on top of a PM rod is NOT an ideal forced induction design; that's pretty obvious to any engine builder. Could it handle SOME boost? Sure. Would it handle it better than any Gen-3 or 4? Absolutely. Would it handle it better than a properly built aftermarket setup? Hell no. What the OEMs have to conform to and what they have in mind is entirely different than the aftermarket.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  22. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

    Posts:
    6,957
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Location:
    Miami
    Thank you for all of your answers. Keep us posted as the kits progess.
     
  23. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

    Posts:
    5,596
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    Buffalo NY, USA
    Will do. Some things will likely change between now and then, but I will certainly keep everyone up to date on progress and availability. I really want to get the Gen-4 & 5 markets moving, and I will also be reaching out to other vendors when the time comes to try and get these products out to customers in other areas where it is difficult for us to service- the market needs some new life!
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  24. SilveRT8

    SilveRT8 Viper Owner

    Posts:
    1,284
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Location:
    Boucherville, Quebec, Canada
    Thanks for all the info Dan,
    I'm a potential futur customer for Gen5 boost and would have great confidence that you will come up with a high quality product.
    Keep us posted
     
  25. MoparMap

    MoparMap VCA National President

    Posts:
    1,604
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Location:
    Kansas
    There's a pretty big misconception with the GM ECU's I think. The GM stuff is locked from the factory just the same, tuners have to crack them before any mods can be done as well. A quick Google search about "locked GM ECU" shows Corvette guys complaining as well about the computers being locked after some factory updates and one mentioned that the new ZR1 is locked from the factory. The main difference there is that I suspect GM uses very a similar computer for all their V8 applications. Think of just how many vehicles that covers and the huge market that entails. There has finally been some movement on the Dodge front with their V8 cars, but the Viper is its own monster and the only vehicle with the V10 in the lineup to my knowledge. One year of GM LS production is probably 10x the number of Viper engines produced in the entire V10 history. Not that the car isn't worth the work and wouldn't make a lot of people happy if the ECUs do finally get unlocked, but since it's such a wildly different engine from a typical V8 you have to figure that even those used to cracking ECUs would probably be scratching their heads trying to understand what's going on.
     
  26. DMan

    DMan Viper Owner

    Posts:
    1,855
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Location:
    Maryland
    Reading Dan's posts makes me want to load my gen4 on a trailer & ship it up there now. If I only knew wtf I was doing in terms of gen4 or 5, etc. LoL.

    Exciting stuff, and we've been needing some exciting stuff for a while. (I mean that in terms of aftermarket, before guys pounce on me for saying the gen5 isn't exciting stuff). Thanks, Dan!!
     
  27. chorps

    chorps Enthusiast

    Posts:
    778
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2005
    Location:
    Edmonton, Canada
    This is true. All the manufacturers have locked their ECUs down, but the size of their markets make it well worth pursuing by third parties to unlock it. The 08+ Venom engine controller is not only a small market, the controller and bus architecture are very specific to the Viper.
     
  28. Alabaster Mamba

    Alabaster Mamba Enthusiast

    Posts:
    556
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Location:
    Corinth, TX
    So is there any reason why Chrysler/Fiat couldn't rebid to a new company for new engine management software? Or are they bound by contracts to stay with the particular vendor that they are using now? The reason I ask is because if not contractually obligated, Chrsyler could opt to go with a new company providing the cost wouldn't be prohibitive. They could then make the new engine management systems be able to be backward compatible and possibly be able to be turned in for exchange, with a small price included to help offset the cost. Chrysler wouldn't provide the actual changes nor proclaim it to be tuneable but in turn sell the tuning software to tuning companies. Just a thought. Now I have no idea how much of a cost it would be for them to contract something out like this out. It may be totally unfeasible.
     
  29. Jack B

    Jack B Enthusiast

    Posts:
    3,483
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2000
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    The picture will be clearer after SEMA.
     
  30. elanderholm

    elanderholm Enthusiast

    Posts:
    423
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2002
    Location:
    Foster City, CA
    How much money to develop this are we talking about? 20k? 50k? 100k? 1 mil? Why not get a couple good programmers who have experience together and do a kickstarter for it? The issue you run into there is if it costs too much and not enough people actually care...which could be the case.
     

Share This Page