Knight Viper
Viper Owner
Brain, it been said but thanks for the awesome post and pics 
Things I learned at VIR Viperdays 2006
- Thread starter Bonkers
- Start date
SVS Turbo
Enthusiast
Using your transmission to slow you down on a roadcourse is a bad habit that you don't want to promote. Your Viper became a lawnmower because of that and not because the brakes don't have enough in them to slow you down.
Brake pads are much cheaper than repairing your transmission from undue stress that's not needed. Using the trans to slow you down is also the best way to unbalance the car, lock up your rear tires and spin out.
You don't make up alot of time under braking into a turn. More emphasis should be placed on balance, matching your rpms into the turn and getting on the gas sooner for a better exit out of the turn.
Mopar Steve
Enthusiast
Brian thanks for the pic's of Leah (red RT/10). you must have gotten your woodchuck after we left.
Nice to visit with you. See you at the next event.
Nice to visit with you. See you at the next event.
Tom Sessions
Enthusiast
The helment requirement for viperdays is a SA helment not more than 5 years old.This would be a SA 2000 or a SA 2005.A M rated helment does not meet our rules.Any other questions just ask.
Ron
Enthusiast
Tom,
What are the belt requirements? 5/6 point or OEM for rookies. At what age do 5/6 points go out of spec?
Thanks!
What are the belt requirements? 5/6 point or OEM for rookies. At what age do 5/6 points go out of spec?
Thanks!
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
........Obviously, a few schools of thought on this issue. I was taught at Bragg-Smith in 2002 to NOT use the transmission for braking. As stated above, the main purpose of downshifting was to set up for corner exit in the proper power area. It was grilled into us that the brakes are what should slow the car down--never the tranny. As for setting the car, we were taught to lift and at the very least, tap the brakes to help set the car....no matter how slight the corner...unless it was a wide open little kink where brakes are not needed.
Steve
Gavin
Enthusiast
If you want to find out just how wrong it is to 'use the transmission' to slow the car down, next time at the track go flat out down the main staight, stick it into third and let the clutch out - your car will totally destabalize (thats swap ends quicker than you can say 'snot')
The brakes are for stopping the car - the transmission is for changing gear.
One more point - you really are not using the tranmission to slow the car when you try that trick - you are using the engine and either it is going to spin backward or your tires are going to spin backwards ......and it sure isn't going to be the engine.
Oh yes, one more thing - your car has a revlimiter on it because your valve train and your connecting rods are known to meet each other when you over rev the motor - usually results in a rod thru the block or at the very least a valve stuck in the top of a piston. Using the engine as a way to slow the car down is the perfect way to mechanically over-rev the engine and blow it up.
Now Skip knows all this and something was mis-heard or mis-intepreted.
Come out to the race track with me and all my viper buddies and see how many of us are using the motor to slow our cars down - Zip, Zero, none!!!
I don't mean to sound harsh about this but I can picture folks trying this and no end of engines getting broke because of a real lack of understanding of the issue.
Stay safe
The brakes are for stopping the car - the transmission is for changing gear.
One more point - you really are not using the tranmission to slow the car when you try that trick - you are using the engine and either it is going to spin backward or your tires are going to spin backwards ......and it sure isn't going to be the engine.
Oh yes, one more thing - your car has a revlimiter on it because your valve train and your connecting rods are known to meet each other when you over rev the motor - usually results in a rod thru the block or at the very least a valve stuck in the top of a piston. Using the engine as a way to slow the car down is the perfect way to mechanically over-rev the engine and blow it up.
Now Skip knows all this and something was mis-heard or mis-intepreted.
Come out to the race track with me and all my viper buddies and see how many of us are using the motor to slow our cars down - Zip, Zero, none!!!
I don't mean to sound harsh about this but I can picture folks trying this and no end of engines getting broke because of a real lack of understanding of the issue.
Stay safe
OP
OP
Gavin - slight mis-interpretation. I said the transmission was part of the braking system not in lue of the braking system. There's no chance of over-revving or reversing traction at these speeds.
Now here's the annoying thing. I was told this first session of the first day. I asked Skip, nine of the VRL drivers, four of the White Class drivers, seven instructors, and Tom Sessions himself and every single one of them agreed with the system being used. I spent over 110 miles re-programming my driving as such. Forgive me, but it worked on the track and endorsed by the people driving there so I'll stick with it for now.
One concession though - considering this technique is used to teach newbies it probably does go in the face of advanced motorsports. But for those new to the track who need to be in the correct gear coming out of the corner it's a fairly straight-forward technique that's easy to impliment. Attempting heel-toe, revmatching, or drift-shifting turn would be way more dangerious to a greenhorn than possibly damaging the valve-train.
Now here's the annoying thing. I was told this first session of the first day. I asked Skip, nine of the VRL drivers, four of the White Class drivers, seven instructors, and Tom Sessions himself and every single one of them agreed with the system being used. I spent over 110 miles re-programming my driving as such. Forgive me, but it worked on the track and endorsed by the people driving there so I'll stick with it for now.
One concession though - considering this technique is used to teach newbies it probably does go in the face of advanced motorsports. But for those new to the track who need to be in the correct gear coming out of the corner it's a fairly straight-forward technique that's easy to impliment. Attempting heel-toe, revmatching, or drift-shifting turn would be way more dangerious to a greenhorn than possibly damaging the valve-train.
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
Bonkers,
I've been on 4-5 different road courses for a total of about 800 track miles. The Viper has enough grunt to come out of just about any corner in 3rd gear and for a newbie ...even 4th gear sometimes. If you're only going to be on a track once or twice a year (like me), you'll probably never get very good anyway, but it's still a lot of fun. If you're on a big track, and well into 4th gear.......for safety sake, you could exit a corner in 4th gear and then shift down after you track out. Not correct from a schooling standpoint, but that way you just have to focus on slowing the car down, not shifting, and hitting the line with proper balance. Some tracks you can leave a Viper in 3rd gear all the time---never shift. For a stock Viper with a stock driver....Gingerman is one such track. Plenty enough grunt in 3rd gear for any corner exit and most average drivers won't get to 4th there. Much smoother too.
Steve
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
I think what everyone is worrying about is that excessive rear wheel braking causes a sudden loss in directional stability, and it can be via a lower gear selection or large four piston calipers and too much rear bias.
I don't mean to pour salt in anyone's wounds with this example, and I honestly don't know what was the cause in this video. I do know (from personal experience with both downshifting and rear wheel braking) that it is a good example of what can happen. Again, if the video selection causes problems, apologies up front.
excessive trail braking
I don't mean to pour salt in anyone's wounds with this example, and I honestly don't know what was the cause in this video. I do know (from personal experience with both downshifting and rear wheel braking) that it is a good example of what can happen. Again, if the video selection causes problems, apologies up front.
excessive trail braking
Gavin
Enthusiast
No mis-interpretation. In my humble opinion, using the transmission in conjunction with the brakes, at any speed, has a de-stabalizing effect on the car unless revs are matched perfectly.
I will explain further.
Try downshifting from speed, say 4th gear down to 3rd, get the car slowed to where YOU think it is time to downshift and let the clutch out and do this without blipping the throttle.
It is extremely unlikely that a newbie is going to get the shift point correct and one of two things is going to happen:
1. if the car is moving too quickly (the shift occurred too early in the sequence) then the rear tires will chirp - evidence the engine revs are too low. This is the most likely event.
2. If the car is moving too slow, the opposite will occur, in that the car will surge forward.
Neither condition is desirable as the chassis is in a destabalized condition.
Fact is - at any level of the game a newbie must learn to blip the throttle - it is the only way to 'match' revs between the engine and the transmission/wheel speed.
If I heard such nonsense coming from Skips own mouth I would have to challenge it and as for the VRL guys on the sidelines of all this, their non-speak to the issue states nothing.
To my simple mind, this driving technique is subtantially more complex to get right, than simply learning to blip the throttle, as blipping the throttle has a wide band of revs that are acceptable to the technique whereas your concept demands the revs match pefectly - it just isn't going to happen - well thats not right - it is going to happen but the car is compromised.
I mean you really have to get this - the technique is simply nonsense at any speed, at any skill level.
Here is the correct secquence for getting a car slowed down using only the brakes, then down shifting without destabializing the car or chassis, then turning into a corner - just the basics
Lets brake at the end of the main straight where, at most tracks you are in 4th gear and up around 100mph give or take.
Brake
Brake
Brake
Brake
Brake
The car should be approaching the turn in point
Shift and rotate the car into the turn.
Even Throttle to the apex
Roll on the throttle at the apex
Note: shifting is the last thing you do before letting off the brake, getting back onto the throttle (even throttle).
The more I think on this the worse it gets from a theoretical point of view.
Try this on:
We would all agree the brakes are at their most effective when the rears are at threshold and the fronts are at threshold.
For this to occur the chassis has to be in a stable condition.
If you use the tranny and induce 'chirp' you just lost the rear end braking effect.
Lastly
If the car is unable to stop in time to make the corner, the best advice would be to move the braking point back, would it not?
To advise the use of the tranny in conjunction with the brakes is just nonsense- as in - it makes no theoretical or practical sense.
My suggestion is you email Skip this link and see if what you think he said, really did in fact get said.
OP
OP
I'm not trying to argue so please don't read more into this post than necessary. Driving is my hobby and I'm devoted to knowing as much as I can about how to make myself a better driver...
Let me start my reply with the end of your post backwards:
Let me start my reply with the end of your post backwards:
Anyone who has driven a viper knows that the rears do not threshold anywhere near the same speed as the fronts. In fact until Tom's 40mm brake install I could never get the rear to hook up in the same ballpark as the fronts in terms of relative speed. You either threshold with the fronts or you lock the fronts and threshold with the rear. Therefore compromising the integrity of the rear tires under threshold does little to the overall grip of the car.
If I'm reading this correctly you flatly admit to downshifting during your final braking procedure. Otherwise what you are saying is to brake, enter corner, lift off of brake and downshift, then throttle - which I see as a perfect recipe for de-stabilizing the chassis.
But under that logic wouldn't the best advice simply to be to slow down altogether? If I can get another 50-100ft deeper into the corner via threshold/compression that's another 50-100ft against the clock. The whole goal of the class was to learn to maximize the use of the car AND the entirety of the asphalt.
Gavin
Enthusiast
Man you sure are making this interesting - driving is my hobby too - no worries - maybe we can make you a better driver - thats why you did a track event right!! and to have the most fun any one person is entitled to in a day
Here are the facts on your Viper, or I should say any Viper that has not been properly corner weighted and does not have ABS
The right front is going to lock up first - NOT the rears.
Threshold is when the tires are at the maximum grip and the verge of lockup
It is also a fact that 85%, give or take, of the braking effect of the car is accomplished by the front tires, neverthless, 15% is 15% and a big heavy car like the Viper needs every bit of braking it can get.
Of course I admit to downshifting - thats an intergral part of going quick
But please READ what I wrote - shifting is the last thing you do before you turn into the corner - in other words, I'm implying Skip has you shifting very early in the process so that the transmission can help the brakes - isn't that where we started this, but lets not go backwards.
Did Skip in all his wisdom discuss - SLOW IN, FAST OUT?
our perception that you gain time by braking deeper into the corner is just flat wrong.
If you brake and keep the car/chassis stable, you can brake deeper into the corner (this is why ABS helps cars so much - the abs prevents wheel lock and keeps the chassis in a stable mode, hence shorter braking distances on ABS equiped cars.
conversly if you destabalize the chassis your braking distance must be longer as you have less tire contact for less time = car travles further.
Slow down altogether - nope - the goal is to be on the throttle as long as you can then on the brake for as short a period as you can, then carry as much speed as you can to the apex, then pick up the throttle as ealry as you can - the faster you come off the corner, the faster or higher top speed you reacxh before braking for the next corner.
Braking late unbalancing the car makes you spend time in the corner where you are not accelerating - you are too darn busy trying to save the car from 'PUSH'
THe goal you state is correct!
Lets try another approach
Would you agree there is a point somewhere approaching a corner where your braking must begin.
Would you agree there is a point somewhere before the corner where your braking must end.
If you take those two points it is possible to measure that distance - agreed?
The goal is to make that distance as short as possible - would you agree?
To make that distance as short as possible one would have to have the car brake as effectivley as possible - would you agree?
To have the car brake as effectivley as possible then all four tires should have the same opportunity of grip
To have all four tires have the same opportunity for grip they have to have the maximum possible amount of downforce.
For that to occur the car/chassis must be stable - the flatter the chassis is to the track the better it will brake, taking into account the nosedive when you jump on the brakes - too much nosedive and you lose effective braking and get frontwheel lockup
Enough
Here are the facts on your Viper, or I should say any Viper that has not been properly corner weighted and does not have ABS
The right front is going to lock up first - NOT the rears.
Threshold is when the tires are at the maximum grip and the verge of lockup
It is also a fact that 85%, give or take, of the braking effect of the car is accomplished by the front tires, neverthless, 15% is 15% and a big heavy car like the Viper needs every bit of braking it can get.
Of course I admit to downshifting - thats an intergral part of going quick
But please READ what I wrote - shifting is the last thing you do before you turn into the corner - in other words, I'm implying Skip has you shifting very early in the process so that the transmission can help the brakes - isn't that where we started this, but lets not go backwards.
Did Skip in all his wisdom discuss - SLOW IN, FAST OUT?
our perception that you gain time by braking deeper into the corner is just flat wrong.
If you brake and keep the car/chassis stable, you can brake deeper into the corner (this is why ABS helps cars so much - the abs prevents wheel lock and keeps the chassis in a stable mode, hence shorter braking distances on ABS equiped cars.
conversly if you destabalize the chassis your braking distance must be longer as you have less tire contact for less time = car travles further.
Slow down altogether - nope - the goal is to be on the throttle as long as you can then on the brake for as short a period as you can, then carry as much speed as you can to the apex, then pick up the throttle as ealry as you can - the faster you come off the corner, the faster or higher top speed you reacxh before braking for the next corner.
Braking late unbalancing the car makes you spend time in the corner where you are not accelerating - you are too darn busy trying to save the car from 'PUSH'
THe goal you state is correct!
Lets try another approach
Would you agree there is a point somewhere approaching a corner where your braking must begin.
Would you agree there is a point somewhere before the corner where your braking must end.
If you take those two points it is possible to measure that distance - agreed?
The goal is to make that distance as short as possible - would you agree?
To make that distance as short as possible one would have to have the car brake as effectivley as possible - would you agree?
To have the car brake as effectivley as possible then all four tires should have the same opportunity of grip
To have all four tires have the same opportunity for grip they have to have the maximum possible amount of downforce.
For that to occur the car/chassis must be stable - the flatter the chassis is to the track the better it will brake, taking into account the nosedive when you jump on the brakes - too much nosedive and you lose effective braking and get frontwheel lockup
Enough
VPRGTS
Enthusiast
"shifting is the last thing you do before you turn into the corner"
I have to disagree.
But we do agree that less time on the brakes and shorter braking distance will increase overall speed. Anything that contributes to this is positive.
Don't tell F1 and Superbike (or any other road race venue for that matter) that you can't engine brake.
Engine braking can be as simple as lifting off the gas or as aggressive as early downshifting. Either way, it helps to slow the car and done properly, it will shorten braking distance. If you match revs, tires do not lock up, the car does not over rev and there is less wear on the clutch, etc.
Done improperly, you can destabilize the car (leading to bad things). Clutch slips (wear), tires lockup, engine may over rev.
I have to disagree.
But we do agree that less time on the brakes and shorter braking distance will increase overall speed. Anything that contributes to this is positive.
Don't tell F1 and Superbike (or any other road race venue for that matter) that you can't engine brake.
Engine braking can be as simple as lifting off the gas or as aggressive as early downshifting. Either way, it helps to slow the car and done properly, it will shorten braking distance. If you match revs, tires do not lock up, the car does not over rev and there is less wear on the clutch, etc.
Done improperly, you can destabilize the car (leading to bad things). Clutch slips (wear), tires lockup, engine may over rev.
02ViperTodd
Enthusiast
Side note: That video made me sick.
luc
Enthusiast
using the engine to brake/slow down the car is 100% the wrong thing to do an a race track.
Beside possible extra wear and tear on the driveline, it is neither efficient nor help in going faster.
Obviously,to obtain maximum traction, being in braking,turning or accelerating, you need to correctly use weight transfer to put the maximum weight on the tire(s) that has/have to do the most work.
The reason that front brakes do most of the work and consequently are bigger than the rear is simply because, under braking, the weight is transfered to the front and consequently more traction is available.
Using the engine to slow down ( on a rear wheel drive car) accomplish exactly the opposite, the weight is still transfered forward and the tires with the less traction are the ones that are slowing down the car.
You don't winn a race/go fast around a track with a higher entry speed in a turn, quite the opposite, what matter is how early can you be back on the power and consequently what is your exit speed.
Since passing under braking is one of the most commum way of passing a car, you will have all see many times in racing,someone outbraking another driver in a turn, being in front of the other car at the turn apex and being passed by the same other car at the end of the turn/beginning of the straight.
That is a clear example of slow in/fast out and fast in/slow out.
To go fast ,you need to be smooth, meaning all weight transfer need to be gradual, that do not meam slow, simply that you don't use the brake and gas as an on/off switch,you gradually increase brake pressure (or gas) and you gradually release the pressure.
You only downshift when most of your braking is done, and you don't release/stop braking when you downshift.
In a lot of race cars, like mine (Roush Mustang T/A), you don't use the clutch for up or down shifting,and consequently, due to the straight cut gears nature of those tranny (Jerico and Hewland are 2 well known ones),you will not be able to change gears if the rev's are not matched and when you're are under braking, with most of the car weight tranfered forward, the last thing you want if breaking the rearend loose due extra "braking power" on the rear tires.
Also remember than the less shifting you do , the faster you will be, not only it take time to shift, and during this time you're not doing any of the 2 things that make you go fast on a track ( accelerating and braking) but you also have less control/feed back since only 1 hand is on the steering wheel.
You have to weight this fact againg how much you will gain by having the engine in it's maximum power range, if you're not sure in which gear to be , always go for the higher one.
Luc.
Beside possible extra wear and tear on the driveline, it is neither efficient nor help in going faster.
Obviously,to obtain maximum traction, being in braking,turning or accelerating, you need to correctly use weight transfer to put the maximum weight on the tire(s) that has/have to do the most work.
The reason that front brakes do most of the work and consequently are bigger than the rear is simply because, under braking, the weight is transfered to the front and consequently more traction is available.
Using the engine to slow down ( on a rear wheel drive car) accomplish exactly the opposite, the weight is still transfered forward and the tires with the less traction are the ones that are slowing down the car.
You don't winn a race/go fast around a track with a higher entry speed in a turn, quite the opposite, what matter is how early can you be back on the power and consequently what is your exit speed.
Since passing under braking is one of the most commum way of passing a car, you will have all see many times in racing,someone outbraking another driver in a turn, being in front of the other car at the turn apex and being passed by the same other car at the end of the turn/beginning of the straight.
That is a clear example of slow in/fast out and fast in/slow out.
To go fast ,you need to be smooth, meaning all weight transfer need to be gradual, that do not meam slow, simply that you don't use the brake and gas as an on/off switch,you gradually increase brake pressure (or gas) and you gradually release the pressure.
You only downshift when most of your braking is done, and you don't release/stop braking when you downshift.
In a lot of race cars, like mine (Roush Mustang T/A), you don't use the clutch for up or down shifting,and consequently, due to the straight cut gears nature of those tranny (Jerico and Hewland are 2 well known ones),you will not be able to change gears if the rev's are not matched and when you're are under braking, with most of the car weight tranfered forward, the last thing you want if breaking the rearend loose due extra "braking power" on the rear tires.
Also remember than the less shifting you do , the faster you will be, not only it take time to shift, and during this time you're not doing any of the 2 things that make you go fast on a track ( accelerating and braking) but you also have less control/feed back since only 1 hand is on the steering wheel.
You have to weight this fact againg how much you will gain by having the engine in it's maximum power range, if you're not sure in which gear to be , always go for the higher one.
Luc.
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
Not wanting to argue the merits of braking and shifting, I would only offer this perspective which I think many others may find themselves in agreement with.
For someone who may drive their car to a track once or twice a year-------I think you may be better off not monkeying around with down shifting from very high speed. In other words, if tracking your car is only one small part of the Viper experience (like me) ..............and unless you've taken the time to master the heel toe blip thing, you're taking a big chance at wrecking your car. I had the heel toe thing down pretty good with the ZO6 at Spring Mountain a few years back because the pedals were better suited for my feet. We spent a couple hours going up and down the back straight doing only heel toe. While I know there are some fixes to raise only the gas pedal on our cars, I find the Viper to be very hard for me to heel toe. Therefore, I don't monkey with it. That's not to say I never downshift, but not typically under heavy braking at the same time. I can carry more speed, and smoother, into the corner if I don't have to worry about inserting a shift in there while decelerating at a rapid rate. If you miss the shift, while you're braking hard, or your foot slips due to lack of mastery of the technique, you've got real problems coming at you. At Gingerman this spring. I left my car in 4th gear all the way around. There was no corner on the track that I couldn't break the back end loose tracking out. In other words, I couldn't give it full pedal (Roe blower,3:45s, light flywheel, exhaust, Tom's calipers, no prop valve) until I was almost fully unwound. This afforded me to work on my line, get smoother through the course, and keep the RPMs down for longer life. If I were to get good at rowing through the gears, would I be faster---you bet. Do I care......no. Getting on a track for 80-120 miles per year will never be enough to get good at it. You've got to have the windshield time to get good. I had a great deal of fun just doing what I did. Me against the track. Just a fun day. On the other hand if you intend to race your car regularly, are set on becoming a race car driver, don't drive your Viper much anyway. ....then learn the technique, wind her out, and go for it. Track miles equate to less than 1% of my usage over 60,000 miles---hardly worthwhile jeopardizing the car to gain a few seconds around the track. I have a friend who wrecked 2 Vipers at Gingerman coming into the front straight. He still races cars, but not Vipers. It's a 500 mile jaunt to the closest track for us. It's always been my intent to drive it there, do some other club events on the trip, and drive it home again---all with the shiny side up. That alone means I'm fairly conservative on the track. I am well placed in the intermediate group and can hold my own there. ......But again, the track is just one small piece of the Viper deal for us.
I do think everyone should attend a 2-3 day school to learn the basics. I did 3 days in a ZO6 in 2002. 325 track miles in addition to classroom time, and one full day of car control. Great experience--learned a lot and have retained much of what we were taught. I agree with Luc above that shifting(unless you've mastered the heel/toe/blip thing) takes more time and, as important, removes one hand from the wheel in a potentially dangerous situation for a novice------2 hands on the wheel -- all the time -- was another lesson drilled into us.
Steve
For someone who may drive their car to a track once or twice a year-------I think you may be better off not monkeying around with down shifting from very high speed. In other words, if tracking your car is only one small part of the Viper experience (like me) ..............and unless you've taken the time to master the heel toe blip thing, you're taking a big chance at wrecking your car. I had the heel toe thing down pretty good with the ZO6 at Spring Mountain a few years back because the pedals were better suited for my feet. We spent a couple hours going up and down the back straight doing only heel toe. While I know there are some fixes to raise only the gas pedal on our cars, I find the Viper to be very hard for me to heel toe. Therefore, I don't monkey with it. That's not to say I never downshift, but not typically under heavy braking at the same time. I can carry more speed, and smoother, into the corner if I don't have to worry about inserting a shift in there while decelerating at a rapid rate. If you miss the shift, while you're braking hard, or your foot slips due to lack of mastery of the technique, you've got real problems coming at you. At Gingerman this spring. I left my car in 4th gear all the way around. There was no corner on the track that I couldn't break the back end loose tracking out. In other words, I couldn't give it full pedal (Roe blower,3:45s, light flywheel, exhaust, Tom's calipers, no prop valve) until I was almost fully unwound. This afforded me to work on my line, get smoother through the course, and keep the RPMs down for longer life. If I were to get good at rowing through the gears, would I be faster---you bet. Do I care......no. Getting on a track for 80-120 miles per year will never be enough to get good at it. You've got to have the windshield time to get good. I had a great deal of fun just doing what I did. Me against the track. Just a fun day. On the other hand if you intend to race your car regularly, are set on becoming a race car driver, don't drive your Viper much anyway. ....then learn the technique, wind her out, and go for it. Track miles equate to less than 1% of my usage over 60,000 miles---hardly worthwhile jeopardizing the car to gain a few seconds around the track. I have a friend who wrecked 2 Vipers at Gingerman coming into the front straight. He still races cars, but not Vipers. It's a 500 mile jaunt to the closest track for us. It's always been my intent to drive it there, do some other club events on the trip, and drive it home again---all with the shiny side up. That alone means I'm fairly conservative on the track. I am well placed in the intermediate group and can hold my own there. ......But again, the track is just one small piece of the Viper deal for us.
I do think everyone should attend a 2-3 day school to learn the basics. I did 3 days in a ZO6 in 2002. 325 track miles in addition to classroom time, and one full day of car control. Great experience--learned a lot and have retained much of what we were taught. I agree with Luc above that shifting(unless you've mastered the heel/toe/blip thing) takes more time and, as important, removes one hand from the wheel in a potentially dangerous situation for a novice------2 hands on the wheel -- all the time -- was another lesson drilled into us.
Steve
Eric H
Viper Owner
Great Writeup, but the one thing i would disagree with is:
"Don't be afraid to question the instructors instruction"
While this is partially true, NEVER EVER try to disagree with an instrcutors instruction while on track doing whatever it is he/she is telling you to do. This can have devastating effects.
If you're mid turn, and on the gas, and your instructor tells you to stay on the gas(take hogpen for example) and you decide its better to lift and tap the brakes, but ALWAYS feel free to discuss what you did or thought you should have done AFTERWARDS........While in car, the instructor should have VETO rights over anyone else, becauase he's the one putting his life on the line in your car....I have been instructing for years and I always enjoy the input or feedback, but prefer it to be during a debrief while sitting in the pits!!
BTW, Bonkers, I think I was your instructor for the second half of the day on Saturday(until my M3 blew up!)
"Don't be afraid to question the instructors instruction"
While this is partially true, NEVER EVER try to disagree with an instrcutors instruction while on track doing whatever it is he/she is telling you to do. This can have devastating effects.
If you're mid turn, and on the gas, and your instructor tells you to stay on the gas(take hogpen for example) and you decide its better to lift and tap the brakes, but ALWAYS feel free to discuss what you did or thought you should have done AFTERWARDS........While in car, the instructor should have VETO rights over anyone else, becauase he's the one putting his life on the line in your car....I have been instructing for years and I always enjoy the input or feedback, but prefer it to be during a debrief while sitting in the pits!!
BTW, Bonkers, I think I was your instructor for the second half of the day on Saturday(until my M3 blew up!)
FlyBryViper
Viper Owner
Great write up Bonkers. Glad to see you & Tom in the Comp. Coupe at speed.
Let Bonkers write up be a testiment to all of you that have thought of a Viper Days event, but have yet to make it. I wrote mine over 2 years ago, have made each event since, and instruct at them all as well. Bonkers did a great job describing how satisfying this really is.
If you are thinking of tracking your car, or just want your wife/girlfriend/son or daughter to become a better driver, get to the next Viper Days event.
Who will be at Putnam Park in 2.5 weeks?
Let Bonkers write up be a testiment to all of you that have thought of a Viper Days event, but have yet to make it. I wrote mine over 2 years ago, have made each event since, and instruct at them all as well. Bonkers did a great job describing how satisfying this really is.
If you are thinking of tracking your car, or just want your wife/girlfriend/son or daughter to become a better driver, get to the next Viper Days event.
Who will be at Putnam Park in 2.5 weeks?
Skip at Viper Days
Enthusiast
I have been watching and reading and had to say a few things to clear the air a bit.
Viper Days and its instructors teach a school line not a racing line. That will come with time and experience. Smooth is fast and SAFE. In the beginning shifting is unsettling to the car especially if you do not match revs. Staying in a gear and learning the track and which way the next corner goes is most important. This is not an easy sport as most rookies find out. You must learn to understand weigh transfer and how it effects your braking and turning.
Please start out slow and be smooth. Speed will come and so will trail braking, shifting from 5th to 2nd, etc. as you progress. Be patient... I am pretty sure that most of use will never be paid to race our Vipers!!
I also want to thank Bonkers for taking the time to write up his experiences on the track. He did a great job as a rookie and will do nothing but improve. What he and all the other rookies learned most was that by keeping their eyes up they will be a much better defensive driver and be aware of their surroundings.
We are off to Putnam Park in IN. Come on down or over!!
Viper Days and its instructors teach a school line not a racing line. That will come with time and experience. Smooth is fast and SAFE. In the beginning shifting is unsettling to the car especially if you do not match revs. Staying in a gear and learning the track and which way the next corner goes is most important. This is not an easy sport as most rookies find out. You must learn to understand weigh transfer and how it effects your braking and turning.
Please start out slow and be smooth. Speed will come and so will trail braking, shifting from 5th to 2nd, etc. as you progress. Be patient... I am pretty sure that most of use will never be paid to race our Vipers!!
I also want to thank Bonkers for taking the time to write up his experiences on the track. He did a great job as a rookie and will do nothing but improve. What he and all the other rookies learned most was that by keeping their eyes up they will be a much better defensive driver and be aware of their surroundings.
We are off to Putnam Park in IN. Come on down or over!!
OP
OP
I stand corrected. You're absolutely right - I should have stated that better.
I think you may have been. Right up until the red flag right? I have to extend my thanks to you yet again Eric, I shaved huge chunks of of time under your instruction. I was literally not having an ounce of fun with the first guy and swapping up made all the difference in the weekend.
Eric H
Viper Owner
Thats great to hear, I had a BLAST riding with you, and You really made some great progress, sorry to hear you had an off after I left though!
Hopefully Courtney will ask me back next year!
It's always awesome to see all the nice cars at Viper days, by next year my little M3 should be a bit bigger and badder, can't wait.
OP
OP
Actually two - the first time because the equipment tried to kill me (I beat the [*****] out of the instructor trying to get him to turn it off - he didn't want to ride with me after that) and the second time because I was so messed up from the first time that I was too busy trying to make the corner that I forgot to actually drive around the corner.
Its all good though - the CC seemed to melt all my troubles away.... even though it eventually over-cooked me.
Gavin
Enthusiast
So I have no issue with a driver of your experience and the point you make - BUT the context of this conversation was a newbie to Viper Days and in my opinion why try to have a newbie accomplish a technique that is inherently more difficult than blipping (heal and toe) the throttle.
Better to shift at the last possible moment before turning in, if you cannot master the blipping technique - this way there is no risk of upsetting the balance of the car.
Explain to me the point of having a newbie use his engine for additional braking - he's certainly not in a race - it is about having the go get quicker and I just think the engine braking concept doesn't teach him to find out the true effectiveness of his brakes - thats why I have a switch on my 2001 VRL car that shuts off the ABS, so I can learn the braking capability of my car - then I turn on the ABS and go further up that learning curve - wow, its like having one hand tied behind your back with the ABS off - I was outbraking comp coupes at the ViperDays I attended earlier this year..
F1 - superbikes - again you have moved the conversation off Vipers, Viperdays and a beginners conversation - I have no expertise in either of this areas.
I'm tickled that you agree- done improperly this engine braking technique leads to the issues you so clearly state.
Skip - forever the diplomat - great to see you on this thread
Gavin
Gavin
Enthusiast
So I re-read and re-read Skips post to see if it tells what he might have been speaking when he was instruction the group including Bonkers.
The answer is there I think.
He talks in his post about shifting is unsettling to the car and keeping the car in gear, learning which way the next corner and the track goes is most important.
Couldn't agree with him more. And I can see where if you are not downshifting, but simply lifting and braking, the engine is assisting in slowing the car down and doing so in a stable way. So we are discussing two different circumstances - both being valid.
I enjoy ViperDays with a passion, help out instructing and believe Skip puts on a top shelf event. Bonkers- you kicked off a great discussion - a learning experience for me for sure.
The answer is there I think.
He talks in his post about shifting is unsettling to the car and keeping the car in gear, learning which way the next corner and the track goes is most important.
Couldn't agree with him more. And I can see where if you are not downshifting, but simply lifting and braking, the engine is assisting in slowing the car down and doing so in a stable way. So we are discussing two different circumstances - both being valid.
I enjoy ViperDays with a passion, help out instructing and believe Skip puts on a top shelf event. Bonkers- you kicked off a great discussion - a learning experience for me for sure.
Janni
Enthusiast
Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner.
Thanks, Gavin.
Thanks, Gavin.
OP
OP
Janni - You were one of the few people I knew had to be there but fo the life of me couldn't seem to catch up with.
ACR Jim
Enthusiast
I can say that I too enjoyed the great weekend, and encourage more of you to come out to Viper Days. I also enjoyed this post and got several smiles from Bonker's post as the father of the 16 year old.
If you'd like to see some pics of the event go here (if you don't see a pic of your car, let me know your car # and I'll see if there is one to add to the gallery).
http://snowhillclassicsllc.exposuremanager.com/g/viper_days_-_vir_-_2006
Always fun to drive and great to watch the VRL and Comp Coupes!
Jim
If you'd like to see some pics of the event go here (if you don't see a pic of your car, let me know your car # and I'll see if there is one to add to the gallery).
http://snowhillclassicsllc.exposuremanager.com/g/viper_days_-_vir_-_2006
Always fun to drive and great to watch the VRL and Comp Coupes!
Jim
Janni
Enthusiast
Bonkers,
We were WAYYYYYYYY downthe paddock in the garages suites. Nice - but very out of the way and I didn't make it down to where all the action is very often in the golf cart. (And it was too freaking hot to walk. )
This event is always crazy for us - with lots of local folks, still trying to do our normal pre-race practice and prep, etc. Seems like I didn't have much of a chance to breath.
Look for us next year - we're usually wearing bright orange.
We were WAYYYYYYYY downthe paddock in the garages suites. Nice - but very out of the way and I didn't make it down to where all the action is very often in the golf cart. (And it was too freaking hot to walk.
)This event is always crazy for us - with lots of local folks, still trying to do our normal pre-race practice and prep, etc. Seems like I didn't have much of a chance to breath.
Look for us next year - we're usually wearing bright orange.
VPRGTS
Enthusiast
I didn't mean to come off as promoting an aggressive style of driving for novices. Sorry if I did.
There certainly are a lot of things novices should not be doing (let alone most of us hacks for the matter).
This has gotten way off track (so to speak).
Great post Bonkers. Everyone should think about coming out to the track, learn to drive safely (it will help your everyday driving) and see how much fun we are having.
There certainly are a lot of things novices should not be doing (let alone most of us hacks for the matter).
This has gotten way off track (so to speak).
Great post Bonkers. Everyone should think about coming out to the track, learn to drive safely (it will help your everyday driving) and see how much fun we are having.
