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Discussion in 'Generation V Discussions / SRT Coupe, GTS, GTC, AC' started by black mamba1, Nov 25, 2013.
Here is a pic of the upcoming C7 Z07 600/650 HP
I guess you missed all the articles where several tests were done by different drivers on different days at Laguna Seca between the ZR1 and Gen V and the G5 consistently lost by 2 whole seconds every time. That is not driver error on such a short track. That is one car being a bit superior to another car. If it were the Nurburgrng then I would agree that 2 secs is within driver error variables. They also tested them both at Willow Springs and the Viper consistently lost by around the same margin there.
You can pretend it was driver error but that is not factual. Do you know how we know its not factual? The existence of the TA. If it were driver error then Ralph would have sent one of the factory guys out and beat the ZR1 time with no changes. Yet that's not what they did. SRT knew it couldn't do it. They had to Frankenstein a GTS with an SRT, stiffen anti-roll bars, stiffen the shocks to the point of harshness, better brakes etc to make the Viper beat a ZR1 by a whopping .1 seconds. If the FrankenViper [TA] could only barely beat an old ZR1 by .01 seconds on same day, same conditions in a head to head event what makes you think it could have possibly been driver error involved in the beatdowns the GTS/SRT Vipers got at the hands of the old ZR1? Look at all they had to do to the G5 to make it beat the ZR1 by a whopping .01 on those Corsas?
I love the Viper but I call a spade a spade and deal with facts not emotions in these cases. Simply put, SRT themselves are telling you the GTS/SRT, as they were outfitted, cant handle the old ZR1. That's the only reason the TA exists. Its not rocket science.
Again the Vettes 2 seconds a lap on a 2 mile or shorter track is NOT barely beating a Viper. That's a butt kicking.
There will be a big distance between the Stingray and Z07/ZR1 just like there was with the last C6 models. To believe otherwise is nuts imho. But after seeing how you look at 2 secs a lap as barely losing then I can see how in your mind there wont be much difference in performance between a Stingray and Z07/ZR1 lol. Maybe its me, but your arguments don't make any sense.
The tests using all 3 Viper models are rather meaningless now as a number of refinements have been implemented to production Vipers since. We don't even know if the T/A is quicker or slower that the pre-production model that beat the ZR1 waaay back in March. Maybe all 3 models would beat the ZR1 now, or all lose. I personally don't care which one did or didn't when considering a car at this rarified performance level, but I know it may determine other's self-worth And how does that work out when the next quicker car comes along soon after?
The Viper won the road course challenges for which it was ultimately designed. The cars that lost to it did better in other tests with those drivers, but may more reflect the longer learning curve required with the Viper to extract maximum performance at the limit...and isn't that a fact that's broadly acknowledged by all?
A few more facts for you, Snakebitten. No emotion, just facts.
Fact: The pre-production Viper that lost to the ZR1 was a pre-production model that had massively misaligned toe-out and other prototype bits. See the M/T interview with Ralph. Pre-production test gets replaced by production test of the SRT and GTS, when they tested the TA. See Laguna Seca lap records for that. So you can't honestly make the argument that the production GTS lost to the ZR1 by 2 seconds. You can, however, make the argument that SRT screwed up pretty badly by sending a pre-production car that wasn't well sorted, and lost the test because of that.
Fact: The re-test of the SRT and GTS did lose to the ZR1 by a very small margin, so we'll give that credit to the ZR1 for that.
Fact: The TA did beat the ZR1. Whining that it was done on different days is like Gore whining about needing a vote recount. Sore loser. A win is a win.
Fact: The GTS is only 0.61 seconds per lap slower than the record-holding TA at Laguna Seca. Add the carbon aero kit to the GTS or SRT and that gap would definitely close. I've driven Laguna Seca in my Gen V, aero really counts on that track, especially on turn 1. I would not be surprised if the GTS runs nearly identical lap times with the TA, with just the addition of the carbon aero option.
Fact: Corsas are inferior to the newest MPSC tires, so if they were on equal tires, the GTS and SRT would have beat the ZR1. Ralph says the MPSCs are 2+ seconds faster per lap than Corsas. Being a track guy, all you have to do is look at the tread block design to believe Ralph on that one. The Corsa is a freakin rain tire seemingly designed by lawyers, whereas the MPSC is a true R-compound with track performance in mind. Huge difference in the tires.
My opinion: Put the carbon aero package on the SRT and GTS to match the aero package that comes on the ZR1. Put equal tires on the cars. The ZR1 loses by a solid margin to the SRT, GTS and TA models.
But no matter, the TA is the Laguna Seca record holder above the Gen IV ACR, the ZR1 and all other European and Japanese comers. Fact.
You are right. Some refinements were made to the suspension after the initial disasters with the pre-prods but the retest of the production-spec Vipers still lost to the ZR1 by 1 second consistently. Hence the TA was brought to the party to do the job. BTW differing opinion doesn't mean lack of self-worth etc. One could say that by you attacking someones character with ad hominems instead of dealing with the facts could mean you are the one with-self worth issues.
There you go again, exaggerating. Here are the top four actual lap times at Laguna Seca:
1. 1:33.62 2013 Viper TA
2. 1:33.70 C6 ZR1
3. 1:33.92 2008 Gen IV ACR
4. 1:34.23 2013 Viper GTS
I replied above in bold.
My initial post to Peerblock was just to address his seeming myopia between what actually happened. We can all rightly argue that the Viper would be faster given the right or equal equipment but SRT chose not to do so for reasons that they probably couldn't get around such as the MPSC/Corsa situation. But as it stands the GTS?SRT are not equipped to beat the old ZR1. That is the fact I based my argument on. Nothing more nothing less.
Ok Im off by .4 secs for that full second. But I do like facts and I stand corrected. Now somehow you have labeled this as exaggerating again lol. Ok so my whole argument falls apart because Im off by 4 tenths of a second so all the other facts I listed are mysteriously false now You got to love internet logic.
NOt only this, but Pobst admitted that he was braking early in the viper because of the softer brake feel (at least in the GTS). Also, the MT article conveniently omitted the fact that the ZR1's brake fluid had begun to boil by the end of the testing (CCBS be damned!).
and Snakebitten... what suspension changes were made to the production viper after the laguna test other than they made sure the next batch had properly aligned tires?
LOL, sounds like we mostly agree, SnakeBitten. I'll go with that.
The GTS without carbon aero lost to a ZR1 with aero by 0.53 seconds. There's a big difference between 0.53 and 1 second.
TA rules Laguna Seca for now
LOL at anyone who buys cars based on magazine articles. Seriously. Arguing performance specs between even the top 10 cars gets a bit silly, when they all can perform very well. I bought a Viper because I wanted a Viper. I didn't want a Corvette, GT-R, 911, etc... And no pussified magazine writer will determine what I drive.
Amen, brother Tony
I believe that Ralph has indicated that even the initial production SRT and GTS have been further refined since that testing...so they may be still quicker than all of the dated tests indicate.
iirc 2014 models now have functioning brake ducts (they added finisher hoses to the ducts) can anybody confirm this?
And I predict Trofeo R tires will be out at some point soon, hopefully a factory option tire, and hopefully less expensive than these ho-hum overpriced Corsas. Because the Trofeo Rs will be offered on the Z28, the volume will be higher for this tire line, and hopefully the Viper sizes won't be priced in the stratosphere. We need more tire options, that's about my only complaint for the Viper. Hoosiers are a nice option, but they don't last as long as other R compounds. Come on Pirelli, give us Trofeos.
My neighbour has an Aston Martin V8 Vantage. It only goes around Laguna Seca at 1:52.20. Must be a crappy car then Seriously, unless you're racing these cars, who cares about .5 of a second.
I believe that the tires will be specially formulated for the Gen V... The name has more to do with the specific tread pattern than a particular compound. Heck, the Corsas developed for the Gen V are formulated differently from front to rear. combine this with the tire-specific molds they will have to build and we're looking at a pricey tire.
Michelin makes for a somewhat reasonable price Viper sizes in the MPSC, specifically formulated, so why can't Pirelli? I fear that they'll overcharge for them though. Time will tell.
I never understood "they were run on different days so you can't compare"
Then why keep "best lap times" at all?
So you're putting forth the notion that drivers cannot make errors on Laguna Seca and that the Gen 5 lost by 2 seconds...
Already posted here, but here are the official records from that track. The GTS is listed at #4 with 1:34.23 while the ZR1 is at #2 with 1:33.70. According to 1st grade math, 1:34.23 - 1:33.70 does not yield a 2 second difference - it's actually 0.53 (which is half of a second, or 530 milliseconds...about the time it takes to blink your eyes).
What's more interesting is all the really expensive cars that are on this list posting lap times well below any of the Vipers...like the 700 HP Lamborghini Aventador or the Mercedes SLS AMG Black Series. The #1 spot is the Viper TA.
I know that you're having trouble discerning fact and myth.
Frankenviper? lol...I thought you were concerned with fact so why all the hyperbole?
The Viper TA, compared to the production ZR1 which was already equipped with ceramic brakes, racing compound tires (not street compound) and a dialed-in suspension, SRT showed that with a few minor tweaks that most competent people can do themselves in their garage, they can make the Viper perform even better on the track. None of the changes made to the TA edition were fundamental to the underlying vehicle so they can easily be reversed, meaning a better compromise for driving on track on on the street.
I would say that none of the TA edition changes would be necessary to beat the ZR1 - just put some good racing tires on any production Viper and it will win.
Hmmm...putting forth MT test results as indisputable fact while simultaneously failing to note the difference between 2 seconds and 530 milliseconds. Are we going to venture into the fun-filled and fact-based world of liberal politics with all these "facts" you keep pointing at?
If you like your old-ass vette, you can keep your old-ass vette. Period.
That would be - except that it never happened.
The current 2014 Stingray is #21 with 1:38.28 so the bar is pretty low for the Z06 and ZR1...I mean that's right around Camaro level performance.
Nurburgring Lap Times
Note the car at #6, an old viper. The cars ahead of it, like the Nismo GT-R, were specifically tuned for this particular track. The Viper was not.
Look at the cars behind the Viper - especially funny is the 2012 Lexus LFA with a "nurburgring package" losing by 2 seconds to a 2008 Viper.
Unfortunately the Gen 5 viper hasn't hit this track, but the 2008 ZR1 is also lagging behind the Viper by a whopping 7.5 seconds.
So to conclude, yes, it's you and the numbers show why anyone coming on these forums proclaiming that the Viper should have had a DCT, ceramic brakes, more HP, blah blah blah need to STFU. The Gen 5 is truly an awesome car and perhaps quite underrated. All it needs is better branding, better marketing and a better-trained dealer network that understands how to interact with people shopping for expensive toy cars.
I still think the front needs some styling help, but PeerBlock hit it right. Give the exact car to a better marketed brand that has a higher quality reputation and it would probably sell.
Peerblock there is so much wrong with the initial part your post in relation to what I wrote its sad. I don't have the time or patience to respond. Suffice it to say a racecar driver of very high caliber in Randy Pobst did run both cars initially and there was a 2 sec gap. That really did happen despite what you say. It has gotten down since to under 1 secs as Venom V corrected me On with the production spec cars. I dont consider RP just a magazine driver hence my considering the data and info on his run with the G5 so closely. This is all that I will address from your tome above. I do agree with some of the latter parts of your post however.
My post has nothing to do about the G5 being garbage etc but I can clearly see many of you are taking it that way.
Kda if I remember correctly on the retest done by MT where the Vipers did a lot better Randy mentioned that SRT tweaked the suspension so that the car handled way better than the pre-pro Randy tested months earlier. What changes were made down to the minute detail I have no idea.
Bruce H you may be right on the GTS/SRT being faster now since the refinements. Why isn't SRT showcasing this is beyond me. I would have taken a 2014 car to few tracks that a ZR1 has the record and beat it with all 3 models of the Viper.
Venom V We do agree on most of it but I just feel that until SRT equips all Vipers showroom stock with the proper equipment you really can't say its just as fast or faster as the ZR1. Remember the ZR1 guys were saying the same thing when only the Viper had MPSC's stock and no one here cared for that argument including me. Now the shoe is on the other foot so to speak and here we are making the same arguments a lot of us didnt tolerate vs the ZR1. Ironic isn't it? Now soon as the trofeos and aero are added showroom stock we can all put this kind of discussion to rest. Until the next ZR1/ACR drops lol.
This is just painful to read at this point. It's like teenage boys arguing over who's "Schwartz" is slightly larger.
At the end of the day, unless you are taking the car to a track and really competitively racing it regularly, who really gives a rats a$$. I'm sorry, but if you feel like you have to be able to show up to a C&C event and pound your chest in front of a ZR1 owner and boast that your car is 0.1 seconds faster on Laguna Seca or whatever track, and that determines what car you buy, then something is really wrong with you in my opinion. Unless it was YOU personally posting the lap time, versus the other guy's actual lap time, who cares!?!?! It's an awesome car that well over 90% of us will never push totally to the limits because we enjoy being alive. But don't buy it if it really bothers you so much that it is "slow" because it might not be faster than the C6 ZR1.
Now please stop splitting hairs and this painful argument that will never end. To me and most others on here, it's one of the fastest and most amazing cars in the world, especially for the price, and an improvement in every way regardless of what it could have been if there had been a larger budget.
Everytime I start her up and drive around town I just chuckle after thinking about some of threads on this forum. Thanks to all who make it happen.
Nothing is wrong with what I said. A few practice laps don't matter. The final lap time results are available on at the link provided - race car driver or not, you're not going to cut the best lap time in a Viper on your first time out...and pobst is a probably getting a bit too used to cushy manumatics since he does do a lot of testing.
Nobody really cares what you think the Gen 5 is - people who own one know its potential and that it embarrasses a lot of cars that are more expensive and equipped with supposedly superior tech.
Really?? You think SRT should be putting racing slicks on the Viper as stock equipment? SRT elected to put grippy street tires on the Viper because they knew that most people are going to be driving it on the street, and those that do plan to track it would be putting racing tires on it anyway. We already know the Gen 5 is quicker than the ZR1, especially on tracks where it has an opportunity to use its power...and you don't seem to appreciate the degree to which tires determine a car's performance on a particular track.
You are wavering between whining and outright stupidity...
People don't run street tires on a race track if their goal is to maximize performance...and you wouldn't run race tires on the street because they will wear out faster than your rebuttals. Suffice it to say that if the ZR1 and Viper both use optimal tires for a given track, the Viper will come out ahead. Yes, SRT dropped their balls by not ensuring the demo unit was dialed in, but that was the only real problem.
Now I wonder how much the Lexus LFA owners are crying that their special edition $500K car loses to a lowly 2008 Viper ACR...or that the top 5 production record lap times for Laguna Seca are held by American cars and not pricey, allegedly superior, imports?
The ACR was a 2010, not a 2008. Different wing, different 5th gear. The 2010 was 10 seconds faster around the ring then the 2008 ACR.
Is your full sized poster of Randy Pobst autographed or not?
Yep and here it comes lol. Nice one. The character attacks that moves the goal posts. I'm not going to get down on that level as it serves no real purpose. I guess we will have to agree to disagree even though its evident that some of us agree on almost everything except on the semantics.
I do agree with Hoboken that we really are splitting hairs here and it really has become a silly discussion. No need to continue as its clearly going down a very familiar road now. I'll end my part in it here.
I agree with the post. Beside the lack of power, people are just not that fired up about spending 120K + for an American made car, especially a Dodge/Fiat. The car is continually passed over in articles profiling high performance or exotic cars to have. Yes there is one or two around but not many. You know who is excited about the new Viper for the most part? Current Viper owners. People that love the car already but for the most part aren't going to buy one until the price comes down. Yes I know some have been sold to new owners but the fact is sales are sluggish at best. There are two gen V's at a local dealership and I have looked at them. The sales manager there told me there has been very little interest. Primarily because of the price but also because of the performance. And I believe because its a Dodge. The Viper just has never achieved the elite status that the corvette has and that's a fact. Don't get me wrong, I'm no vette fan. The Viper has rarely received professional recognition. I really don't know what it is but there is just something about the Viper that just isn't liked. I know we like to say its jealousy but I doubt that's it.
I will say that I don't really know something can be done. The car is what it is. Yes it looks cool. It finally got the face lift it needed. But I can tell you it still has the perception of being a cheaply built car. Im not saying that perception is accurate but I am saying in the car circles I have traveled that is the perception. And its not understood why anyone would pay that kind of money for one.
I have a Viper and I love it. I think it may be on its last leg.
Perceptions takes time to catch up to reality as it changes. Most enthusiasts pride themselves on knowing about what's hot and what's not, but many won't know much beyond what they read in the first Motor Trend roasting. And these are often the ones talking smack about everything they won't be buying. The T/A's recent reviews is now shining light on all Vipers, and may help uncover the reality of what a terrific car it is. I wouldn't be too quick to write-off the Vipers reputation and appeal with informed enthusiasts yet, nor its future.