UAW strikes Chrysler

Andrew/USPWR

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So it’s OK for union workers to get grossly over paid for doing manual labor that a Mexican immigrant would gladly do for a 10th of the price, but not the Executive that hold all the responsibilities for these thousands of jobs? The talk of all this hard work on the assembly line. Why not do what every non-union person does and get a better job?

The Unions had a purpose back in the day’s. Now their just keeping guys trapped in jobs they hate because they force the company to over pay them.

Imagine if fruit picker were unionized. How much would an orange cost us today? And the Anti-Foreign Oranges rallies they’d be throwing. IMO

I know how people love to criticize CEO’s and Business owners but, until you’ve owned your own business, you can’t fathom the work load and 24/7 stress levels. How many CEO’s are in the break rooms 4x a day? Throwing back beers at 5:30 every night at the local bar and watching football games all weekend. These guys pay the cost to be the boss.
 

Rich Detert

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So it’s OK for union workers to get grossly over paid for doing manual labor that a Mexican immigrant would gladly do for a 10th of the price, but not the Executive that hold all the responsibilities for these thousands of jobs? The talk of all this hard work on the assembly line. Why not do what every non-union person does and get a better job?

The Unions had a purpose back in the day’s. Now their just keeping guys trapped in jobs they hate because they force the company to over pay them.

Imagine if fruit picker were unionized. How much would an orange cost us today? And the Anti-Foreign Oranges rallies they’d be throwing. IMO

I know how people love to criticize CEO’s and Business owners but, until you’ve owned your own business, you can’t fathom the work load and 24/7 stress levels. How many CEO’s are in the break rooms 4x a day? Throwing back beers at 5:30 every night at the local bar and watching football games all weekend. These guys pay the cost to be the boss.

Would the current UAW pay rate of $28 per hour plus healthcare benefits be considered grossly overpaid as you put it? That's a personal matter of opinion. Is it fair compensation for a repetitious job that's proven to wear your body out, IMO yes (but once again an opinion).

Once again it all goes back to the elimination of the middle class.

As far as working long hours and weekends, at our plant they are currently working 10 hours a day mon-fri and 9 hours on sat. This is mandatory, not optional.
So yes some of the workers do go drink a beer at 5:30, after a 10 hour shift.

The long standing joke is that business owners work half a day, they usually do (12 hours). But there is a difference between owners and hired in executives.
I know what it's like to own a business (the ex-wife is now running it into the ground, but that's not my problem anymore).

You seem to act like management slaves at work all day & night. When the upper levels of management come to town they all go out and play golf. Yes they work, but they play also.
Are they actually working 95% of the time when they're at their job? Usually no.

The future will tell, but probably the best thing that Chrysler has done is now is hore Jim Press from Toyota. One of his focuses is to build a better and more desireable vehicles that the public will want to buy without slapping rebates on them to get the consumer to buy them.
Up till now Chrysler only talks quality, volume has been their main focus because their bonuses are paid on volume. They will accept what ever quality level they can get as long as they get the volume that gets them paid their bonus. When the managements bonuses are paid for quality, the quality gap with the competition will disappear.
 

Andrew/USPWR

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Rick, all I’m saying is everybody has to compete with competition on a global scale in the work place. It goes against a free society for unions to force business managers hands because if they don’t the whole work force walks off. And as mentioned before, a guy willing to do the work for half the price is beat up at the door. It’s a gang mentality.

Competitions is healthy for a free sociality. The middle class will take care of them selves. They always have. For years we’ve been hearing how jobs are heading over seas and are going to put the American working class out of business. But with unemployment at 4% as it has been for decades, and our economy growing every year. That just never holds water. New jobs and industries are created everyday and don’t believe Americans should be employed to pick fruit or coned into doing repetitious jobs for long hours just because the unions have the company by the short hairs.

Look at what unions have done to France and Spain. No growth, high unemployment and a very unhappy working class that’s still constantly going on strikes.

I think the gig is up. IMO
 

Steve 00RT/10

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So it’s OK for union workers to get grossly over paid for doing manual labor that a Mexican immigrant would gladly do for a 10th of the price, but not the Executive that hold all the responsibilities for these thousands of jobs? The talk of all this hard work on the assembly line. Why not do what every non-union person does and get a better job?

The Unions had a purpose back in the day’s. Now their just keeping guys trapped in jobs they hate because they force the company to over pay them.

Imagine if fruit picker were unionized. How much would an orange cost us today? And the Anti-Foreign Oranges rallies they’d be throwing. IMO

I know how people love to criticize CEO’s and Business owners but, until you’ve owned your own business, you can’t fathom the work load and 24/7 stress levels. How many CEO’s are in the break rooms 4x a day? Throwing back beers at 5:30 every night at the local bar and watching football games all weekend. These guys pay the cost to be the boss.

Let's be real Andrew, A smart, English speaking Mexican immigrant could probably take over quite a few executive positions as well.......for a fraction of the cost. It's not rocket science. A college degree without field experience, ambition, and a good dose of common sense is as useless as an overpaid non-productive union guy. Top level execs in this country are paid many, many times more than their counterparts in every other free market capitalist country in the world. I guess that blows up your argument about deserving executive pay. As a rule of thumb, unless you are the creator of the paycheck, you likely deserve no more than the trench guy. In this country, many top level executives who fail, get more money for severance than a union guy makes in his entire lifetime. Gee. ...I think Chrysler has one of those guys on board right now. And then there's Enron, Worldcom etc.........well..........you get the picture.

In my former world, the industrial construction racket, union wages provide the support level for all non-union wages It is a fact that no two men are created equal. That's where unions have shot themselves in the foot over time. Some unions got the message a long time ago, some didn't. All a union guy has to sell is his labor. Unions should not protect those who don't pull their weight. I grew up in a small non-union electrical contracting business. It was established in 1949, run out of our house, and is still in operation today as a union shop, run by my brother. I have belonged to the IBEW for over 30 years, both working with tools and in project management for over 20 years for one of the largest union electrical contractors in the country. In the construction racket, seniority does not necessarily apply. Successful companies apply that principle. It separates the wheat from the chafe, provides a qualified work force for the employer to make money, and strengthens the union.

As for owning my own business, I have done that too...created a paycheck for 8 people for 8 years back in the 90s. I happen to feel that all workers have a right to decent health care and a pension (whether defined or not). Business owners include their own perks in these areas as the cost of doing business. In other words the customer picks up all these costs. Why should the customer pick up the owner's cost for health and retirement.......and not their employees? What gives some the right to health care, paid for by the customer, and not others........like American fruit pickers. That is one of the premises unions were initially built on. Decent wages and benefits in a safe work environment in return for 8 for 8.

Smog Dog hit the nail on the head above here. Sadly that confluence of events may never come to pass.


On the other hand: Rich.........I am curious how $28 per hour translates to $75-78 per hour as reported. Something is definitely not right with that disparity. Are there legacy costs in that $75-78 dollar figure? $50 dollars for cost would easily give you a decent health and pension plan. What's the breakdown to arrive at the high number? If in fact, that is the correct number, then indeed adjustments need to be made. Construction unions are responsible for their health and pension benefits. For decades, if we were to get a 3-4% raise, and health care costs went up by that amount, then the entire raise would go to paying for the increased cost of the benefit. That's just the way it works.

Steve
 

Warfang

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Let's be real Andrew, A smart, English speaking Mexican immigrant could probably take over quite a few executive positions as well.......for a fraction of the cost. It's not rocket science. A college degree without field experience, ambition, and a good dose of common sense is as useless as an overpaid non-productive union guy. Top level execs in this country are paid many, many times more than their counterparts in every other free market capitalist country in the world. I guess that blows up your argument about deserving executive pay. As a rule of thumb, unless you are the creator of the paycheck, you likely deserve no more than the trench guy. In this country, many top level executives who fail, get more money for severance than a union guy makes in his entire lifetime. Gee. ...I think Chrysler has one of those guys on board right now. And then there's Enron, Worldcom etc.........well..........you get the picture.

In my former world, the industrial construction racket, union wages provide the support level for all non-union wages It is a fact that no two men are created equal. That's where unions have shot themselves in the foot over time. Some unions got the message a long time ago, some didn't. All a union guy has to sell is his labor. Unions should not protect those who don't pull their weight. I grew up in a small non-union electrical contracting business. It was established in 1949, run out of our house, and is still in operation today as a union shop, run by my brother. I have belonged to the IBEW for over 30 years, both working with tools and in project management for over 20 years for one of the largest union electrical contractors in the country. In the construction racket, seniority does not necessarily apply. Successful companies apply that principle. It separates the wheat from the chafe, provides a qualified work force for the employer to make money, and strengthens the union.

As for owning my own business, I have done that too...created a paycheck for 8 people for 8 years back in the 90s. I happen to feel that all workers have a right to decent health care and a pension (whether defined or not). Business owners include their own perks in these areas as the cost of doing business. In other words the customer picks up all these costs. Why should the customer pick up the owner's cost for health and retirement.......and not their employees? What gives some the right to health care, paid for by the customer, and not others........like American fruit pickers. That is one of the premises unions were initially built on. Decent wages and benefits in a safe work environment in return for 8 for 8.

Smog Dog hit the nail on the head above here. Sadly that confluence of events may never come to pass.


On the other hand: Rich.........I am curious how $28 per hour translates to $75-78 per hour as reported. Something is definitely not right with that disparity. Are there legacy costs in that $75-78 dollar figure? $50 dollars for cost would easily give you a decent health and pension plan. What's the breakdown to arrive at the high number? If in fact, that is the correct number, then indeed adjustments need to be made. Construction unions are responsible for their health and pension benefits. For decades, if we were to get a 3-4% raise, and health care costs went up by that amount, then the entire raise would go to paying for the increased cost of the benefit. That's just the way it works.

Steve
I believe in all the kumbya stuff too about making sure employees have medical and pension, but the caveat is ONLY IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT, AND IF THE EMPLOYEE IS WORTH IT. You should be able to pay what you think the guy is worth, and he should be able to leave if he doesnt think you're compensating him fairly. All this perks-by-terrorism is just plain silly.

I'd say all execs above a VP by law in a publicly traded company should only get paid $1/yr, and the rest should all be in stock options... with no caps. If they do well, I have no problems with them becoming gajillionaires.
 

Andrew/USPWR

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Let's be real Andrew, A smart, English speaking Mexican immigrant could probably take over quite a few executive positions as well.......for a fraction of the cost. It's not rocket science. A college degree without field experience, ambition, and a good dose of common sense is as useless as an overpaid non-productive union guy. Top level execs in this country are paid many, many times more than their counterparts in every other free market capitalist country in the world. I guess that blows up your argument about deserving executive pay. As a rule of thumb, unless you are the creator of the paycheck, you likely deserve no more than the trench guy. In this country, many top level executives who fail, get more money for severance than a union guy makes in his entire lifetime. Gee. ...I think Chrysler has one of those guys on board right now. And then there's Enron, Worldcom etc.........well..........you get the picture.

I here ya, but productivity is what people get paid on. A manger over seeing 100 employees is not going to make what a CEO is over seeing 100.000 employees is. These companies are dealing in a world market now, not just America. That’s why they can earn that much more, and should.

Exxon Mobil aren't selling gas from a thousand gas stations throughout the country, it’s ten’s of millions throughout the world. That’s why we’re seeing huge gaps from the lowest paid to the highest paid. The guy lowest paid only his own job to think about. For some reason people think these top manager aren't worth their pay, yet competitor pay them more and more to hire them away. Know one is going to pay a union worker what the union can get for him. I’ve hired a few and fired them quickly after. Their whole sense of work ethics was warped. It wasn’t about the customer or the product it was about them.

I know not all union guys are a like but, I’m from Michigan myself.
 

Steve 00RT/10

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I believe in all the kumbya stuff too about making sure employees have medical and pension, but the caveat is ONLY IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT, AND IF THE EMPLOYEE IS WORTH IT. You should be able to pay what you think the guy is worth, and he should be able to leave if he doesnt think you're compensating him fairly. All this perks-by-terrorism is just plain silly.

I'd say all execs above a VP by law in a publicly traded company should only get paid $1/yr, and the rest should all be in stock options... with no caps. If they do well, I have no problems with them becoming gajillionaires.

Warfang,

Your supposition is altruistic. It will never be that way in real life. No matter the business, another rule of thumb says that roughly 10% of a companies employees are less qualified than the other workers. It has to be that way........cause no two people are the same. There will always be a pecking order. Yet, if the less qualified worker is ambitious, dependable, and gives a good tug.... he will not likely be fired and will in fact, realize the same health / pension benefit options as the others

We both know that all who get health care benefits in this country right now are not necessarily deserving. Let's start with our elected officials. Why should they get anything different than the people paying the cost? I say that many aren't deserving and that we can't afford the added cost. How about every business in this country that has health care and /or pension benefits built into the product/service they sell. You can't possibly think they are all deserving? That's my point. In this country, many types of businesses have had this cost built into them since the beginning.......and the customer pays for it. If I go to work as a bank teller, car salesman, insurance agent etc..... chances are the bank / dealership / agency has some sort of health plan for all it's employees........regardless of merit. Once you're hired....you're in. Also likely starting at a common base wage.

As for stock options, they are one of the problems with the entire system. From the way they are calculated and written off to short range goals set by eager stock option owning execs looking to make big dollars as quickly as possible on share price escalation. You can make productivity numbers jump quickly and expenses drop as quickly, by just jettisoning a few hundred employees. The stock market loves when companies do that regardless of whether it's a prudent, long term move. If what Rich says is true, I guess we need look no further than some of the bonus structure at Chrysler as regards overbuilding.

I here ya, but productivity is what people get paid on. A manger over seeing 100 employees is not going to make what a CEO is over seeing 100.000 employees is. These companies are dealing in a world market now, not just America. That’s why they can earn that much more, and should.

Exxon Mobil aren't selling gas from a thousand gas stations throughout the country, it’s ten’s of millions throughout the world. That’s why we’re seeing huge gaps from the lowest paid to the highest paid. The guy lowest paid only his own job to think about. For some reason people think these top manager aren't worth their pay, yet competitor pay them more and more to hire them away. Know one is going to pay a union worker what the union can get for him. I’ve hired a few and fired them quickly after. Their whole sense of work ethics was warped. It wasn’t about the customer or the product it was about them.

I know not all union guys are a like but, I’m from Michigan myself.

Andrew,

I'm glad you fired the slugs who put themselves first. Unions don't need guys like that. It will be their complete demise. ....Looks like we will not agree on executive compensation. BTW I realized long ago that you will never make a lot of money working by the hour. That's why I let companies like Exxon Mobil make money for me ;)


Steve
 

Andrew/USPWR

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I'm glad you fired the slugs who put themselves first. Unions don't need guys like that. It will be their complete demise. ....Looks like we will not agree on executive compensation. BTW I realized long ago that you will never make a lot of money working by the hour. That's why I let companies like Exxon Mobil make money for me ;)


Steve[/QUOTE]


OPM, other people money.:D

It's a great country that put "The pursuit of happiness" right in their constitution.:2tu:
 

Warfang

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Warfang,

Your supposition is altruistic. It will never be that way in real life. No matter the business, another rule of thumb says that roughly 10% of a companies employees are less qualified than the other workers. It has to be that way........cause no two people are the same. There will always be a pecking order. Yet, if the less qualified worker is ambitious, dependable, and gives a good tug.... he will not likely be fired and will in fact, realize the same health / pension benefit options as the others


Of course it's supposition. I want to end poverty, world hunger and my inability to buy any and as many cars as I wish. :D

My whole point is that no two people are alike. So then why do the unions insist they get paid as if they were within their own pecking order? What the workers don't understand is that the unions only hold them back from really releasing their potentials and succeeding beyond anything the unions can promise them. Instead they're stuck in blue collar mediocrity while their leaders live if up. Yes, I know this for a fact.
 

Andrew/USPWR

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Of course it's supposition. I want to end poverty, world hunger and my inability to buy any and as many cars as I wish. :D

My whole point is that no two people are alike. So then why do the unions insist they get paid as if they were within their own pecking order? What the workers don't understand is that the unions only hold them back from really releasing their potentials and succeeding beyond anything the unions can promise them. Instead they're stuck in blue collar mediocrity while their leaders live if up. Yes, I know this for a fact.

Personally that how I feel. It takes people being forced out of their comfort zone sometimes to see what their really capable of.
 

JKVIPER

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Preach the word brother! :) The closest I've seen unions in action is with my father when he was a laborer and operating engineer. Those unions seemed more realistic in their expectations as compared to the UAW. Job security, fully paid medical benefits is a nice to have but unrealistic in this day and age of global competition. Can't be a good thing if they're allowed to put a stranglehold on a business by walking out on their jobs. It seems almost childish of a gesture in this day and age.


Well I guess, the striking Union workers should go run for congress. A single term yields you a $15,000 a month pension plus medical.
 

Rich Detert

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I've been going to SMART training this week in the plant (Team Concept) and one of the issues we've been discussing is the J.D.Power ratings.

The numbers on the quality difference between Toyota and Chrysler is closer than most anyone would expect.
Toyota has .7 issues per vehicle, Chrysler has 1.3 issues per vehicle.
That's only a difference of .6 issues per vehicle.

These are J.D.Powers numbers, of course they use a rating scale of 100 vehicles to make the numbers look more impressive 107 for Toyota & 130 for Chrysler.
That's their way of making the numbers look farther apart.

I was wondering myself where the figure of $78 per hour came from.
Looking at my paycheck it says $27.40 for the hourly rate, then there's the COLA (cost of living allowance) of $2.25 an hour (which fluctuates higher and lower quarterly) for a total of $29.65 per hour right now.

I have no idea where the $78 figure come from. Yes there a cost for our benefits, but $50 per hour?

Congress & the Senate is the best place to retire from. Where else do you know that you only have to work one term and you'll get your salary plus healthcare for life.
They're the real crooks in this country.
 

Andrew/USPWR

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I've been going to SMART training this week in the plant (Team Concept) and one of the issues we've been discussing is the J.D.Power ratings.

The numbers on the quality difference between Toyota and Chrysler is closer than most anyone would expect.
Toyota has .7 issues per vehicle, Chrysler has 1.3 issues per vehicle.
That's only a difference of .6 issues per vehicle.

These are J.D.Powers numbers, of course they use a rating scale of 100 vehicles to make the numbers look more impressive 107 for Toyota & 130 for Chrysler.
That's their way of making the numbers look farther apart.

I was wondering myself where the figure of $78 per hour came from.
Looking at my paycheck it says $27.40 for the hourly rate, then there's the COLA (cost of living allowance) of $2.25 an hour (which fluctuates higher and lower quarterly) for a total of $29.65 per hour right now.

I have no idea where the $78 figure come from. Yes there a cost for our benefits, but $50 per hour?

Congress & the Senate is the best place to retire from. Where else do you know that you only have to work one term and you'll get your salary plus healthcare for life.
They're the real crooks in this country.

It's the hourly wage you always here in the news.

As far as Congress and the Senate, that just one more issue we need to work on. Two wrongs still don't make a right.
 

ViperTony

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I've been going to SMART training this week in the plant (Team Concept) and one of the issues we've been discussing is the J.D.Power ratings.

The numbers on the quality difference between Toyota and Chrysler is closer than most anyone would expect.
Toyota has .7 issues per vehicle, Chrysler has 1.3 issues per vehicle.
That's only a difference of .6 issues per vehicle.

Looking at the difference on a per vehicle basis doesn't seem like much at first glance. Looking at that delta across a production run of say 100,000 vehicles then Chrysler will have 6,000 more potential defects than Toyota.
 

Racer Robbie

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They are walking off the line. The 2008's are being pushed back to ?????

I was talking to a friend of mine who owns a Dodge dealership that is viper certified last Monday and he told me the viper is being built thru 2009 and then being replaced by a smaller sports car called the Demon. When I got home last night and picked up the new copy of Auto Week's Buyer's Guide there it was on page. We all need to get together and put some kind of survey together to let the new owners know that we want the viper to continue and that we are willing to support and pay for it. If anyone knows how do get this ball rolling lets do it.
 

viperbilliam

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I think that's an unfounded opinion and it could not possibly replace the Viper in any way except to be known as a "Viper Jr". I read the Autoweek articles - no way. A Miata fighter, yes. Does Chrysler need it - I believe so. A Viper Jr needs a Viper Sr for the marketing halo that would sell the Viper Jr to a much larger market that Chrysler wants and needs.
 

Mopar488

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I was talking to a friend of mine who owns a Dodge dealership that is viper certified last Monday and he told me the viper is being built thru 2009 and then being replaced by a smaller sports car called the Demon. When I got home last night and picked up the new copy of Auto Week's Buyer's Guide there it was on page. We all need to get together and put some kind of survey together to let the new owners know that we want the viper to continue and that we are willing to support and pay for it. If anyone knows how do get this ball rolling lets do it.

Dodge could get a lot of support if they would start geting the 08 Vipers out the door.
Until then, frustration is building...
 

klamathpro

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I was talking to a friend of mine who owns a Dodge dealership that is viper certified last Monday and he told me the viper is being built thru 2009 and then being replaced by a smaller sports car called the Demon. When I got home last night and picked up the new copy of Auto Week's Buyer's Guide there it was on page. We all need to get together and put some kind of survey together to let the new owners know that we want the viper to continue and that we are willing to support and pay for it. If anyone knows how do get this ball rolling lets do it.


I think your Viper Tech and Autoweek are on crack. The last I heard was the Demon has not even hit the tables for testing. In fact, the first edition of Mopar Enthusiast this month said the likelyhood of the Demon being built is "a long shot of long shots."
If Dodge replaced the Viper with the Demon, I would never buy one. They need to get the cars that are in demand on the road, NOW! The Challenger and the Viper are being delayed too long for cars that are highly anticipated.
Chrysler needs to forget about pushing deadbeats like the Sebring and focus on what real men want. Muscle Cars!

Not having a flagship like the Viper would be a bad move on Chryslers part.
If the Viper will truly be canned after 09' then I guess all our Vipers will go up in value pretty quick.
 
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Mopar488

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I think your Viper Tech and Autoweek are on crack. The last I heard was the Demon has not even hit the tables for testing. In fact, the first edition of Mopar Enthusiast this month said the likelyhood of the Demon being built is "a long shot of long shots."
They need to get the cars that are in demand on the road, NOW! The Challenger and the Viper are being delayed too long for cars that are highly anticipated.
Chrysler needs to forget about pushing deadbeats like the Sebring and focus on what real men want. Muscle Cars!

Not having a flagship like the Viper would be a bad move on Chryslers part.
If the Viper will truly be canned after 09' then I guess all our Vipers will go up in value pretty quick.

I for one am getting tired of waiting on my 08 Viper with delays, delays, delays. Communication is needed NOW for all that have orders in, not just waiting, waiting, waiting. With all the rumors that keep going around, I am really wondering if we will see any 08 Vipers.
 
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RoadiJeff

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The thing that the media doesn't tell you is that the union officials still get paid their normal salary while the workers are on strike and earning strike pay (about $200 a week).
The union keeps what the call a "Fire Watch" in the plant during a strike. These are the highest seniority people and skilled trades.

I don't know about production workers but in skilled trades the LOWEST seniority were forced to work during the strike. I don't know how the company can force anyone to come in if they're on strike but the union agreed to it.

If some high seniority production people voluntarily crossed the picket line and were earning their regular pay while the rest of us were struggling along on $200/wk strike pay they would probably have a rough time after the strike was settled and everyone went back to work. Fortunately for everyone it didn't last very long.

And what's up with a 6 hour strike anyway? That's no strike. Heck, I hadn't even started making plans for 3-day trips to Vegas. Now I have all this extra money stockpiled that I expected to have to live on until at least Christmas and nothing to do with it.

Also, someone else mentioned that the Conner Ave assembly plant wasn't part of the strike. That doesn't mean that the production line is still running there. The UAW didn't target 5 Chrysler plants to strike because those plants were either already shut down or were going to be idled for several weeks in the near future for various reasons. The company would love for those plants to go on strike so they wouldn't have to pay them sub pay.
 

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