Viper Frame a mess

[Steve-Indy]

Interesting thread! Sorry about your troublesome experience with the Viper, Kevin. Please understand that what follows is meant ONLY to clear up an SIGNIFICANT point of discussion and in no way meant to belittle you, your point of view, or chosen course to date:

Kevin, could you PLEASE answer the question that has been asked in the preceeding posts by SEVERAL interested parties...were any of YOUR welds found to be broken???...this is a "yes" or "no" question....for the sake of science, and NOT for a deposition. Thanks !!!

 

[joe117]

The problem you have with the doors should be repaired by the dealer.
If they can't fix it, they should buy back the car.

If Canada has no lemon law forcing the dealer to fix the car after a reasonable number of attempts or replace it, you may be out of luck.

Whatever,
The point is, the doors and their relationship to the changing door opening, should be the basis of your claim.
Why do you want to get involved in an argument over the cause of the door problem?

Forget about the welds. Claim the door operation is screwed up and let them figure it out. If bad welds all over the car are causing it, they will not be able to fix it and you will get what you want.

The dealer will not be able to claim that all Viper doors have this problem. You can easily prove this is not true.

 

[thebigsnake]

Kevin,
Keep in mind this is a low volume hand built product. You won't get those perfect robotic arms doing the assembly like the mass produced cars. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Some of my thoughts in blue below. These are just my off the top of my head thoughts and should not be taken as attacks. It seems like you have an axe to grind and want to use weld quality and frame stifness as weapons. Unfortunately no one has yet come on this thread and indicated that they also have withnssed this condition with another Viper. I therefor take your threats of dimished value to be directed right at my cars. And I can tell you my cars are just fine. Doors open when wanted. Roofs stay put. And the welds .. well they are just welds and seem to be doing the trick.

1) What I Leased was the numero uno, Flagship, top of the line Best car DC sold as of March 2000 <font color="blue"> No, it is Dodge's highest priced car but flagship is a name you put on it. DC makes many cars (Mercedes) that are higher priced. </font>
2) What I paid for the car reflected the fact this car had superior engineering and manufacturing quality to anything DC manufactued at that time. <font color="blue"> I have no idea where you had heard this. Price does not equal quality. Period. And variability is considerably more in a hand built vehicle, therefor the manufacturing quality argument doesn't hold water. </font>
3)The purchase of this vehicle included a Warranty which guaranteed me that if a problem was found with the car it would be corrected by the manufacturer through his agent the dealer and if it could not be repaired the vehicle would be returned or replaced. <font color="blue"> Could you show me that phrase from the warranty. I think you made that one up. </font>
4)The warranty provides that the dealer is a representative of DC and responsible for investigating and correcting defects with the vehicle. <font color="blue"> Not sure if I have seen that written either. Is that perception or actual? </font>
5)I have the right to cancel a contract based on non compliace to the contract by the other party. <font color="blue"> That depends on many factors. If I purchased the Sears tower and in the purchase agreement it had snow removal within 24 hours. After 25 hours could I give the building back. Not. </font>
6)If i took my car on a race track I would void any warranty and claim against the manufacturer based on a decision I had made For consequential damages or personal injury. <font color="blue"> Just being on a race track does not mean that it was raced. I have had mine on many race tracks without losing the warranty. But then again it was never used in wheel to wheel racing. </font>
7) Chrysler is not responsible for safety or design flaws of cars used in racing. <font color="blue"> That depends as well. Litigation is always possible and juries are somewhat unpredictable.</font>
8)The car I bought was for normal use on the street and according to the manufacturer should be safe to use as such. Any design changes DC makes to a street driven car, would be to improve a street driven car, to lessen potential liability resulting from design flaws. or to correct percieved problems with a street driven car. <font color="blue"> You haven't indicated why it is not safe. Your speculation about weld quality does not prove anything. I am sure DC has complied with all mandatory crash testing. I am sure there are a multitude of reasons why changes are made. Liability would probably be low on the list and certainly should not be assumed. </font>
9)Posts by welders in this forum state welding of the frame of this car cannot be done without spattering however some of the welds on this car are smooth and others show spattering even on oposite ends of the same section of metal. <font color="blue"> And your point is ... </font>
10)If an accident happen and a weld is found to be broken after the accident perception would be the accident caused the weld to break not the break caused the accident. <font color="blue"> Are you aware of any accident that resulted in a broken weld or are you speculating again? </font>
11)If a car doors open and close normally on level ground and jam or when closing bounce back at you. Either the frame or body is bending compressing the door opening. <font color="blue"> This is your best point. You should quit trying to understand the cause and only speak about the result. If your doors will not open or close when the car is on a hill then you have reason for concern and corrective action. If this is with a car that has never been in an accident or had the doors adjusted, then the issue is pretty clear. </font>
11)A car bending in the middle is not normal <font color="blue"> A car not bending would be impossible. It is the degree of distortion and not the existence of it. All things distort under a force. It is only a question of amount. </font>
12)A car bending in the middle is not a good feature. <font color="blue"> See above </font>
13)Numerous inspections by A dealer and two inspections by Chrysler engineers should find the problem. I should be able to get a statement of their findings, after being without the car on one occasion for a 5 day period. <font color="blue"> Once you raise the litigation word you limit free communication. Your only recourse from that point is through legal means. </font>
14)I should under my waranty be able to have the problem corrected. <font color="blue"> Problems yes. But what you indicate are problems are your perception of problems and not verifiable problems. The only problem you have stated that I heard is the door closing/opening. </font>
15)When writing a letter To DC directly describing the problem I should expect more than a 2 sentence respose informing me DC is willing to honor their waranty obligations however they see no manufacturing problem. <font color="blue"> I don't see why if you made unsupportable claims. If you limited your claim to only the door issue you would probably observe better results. </font>
16)If I can see clearly a messy inconsistent welding job and I have the welds inspected by 3 mechanics and xray results all telling me there is a problem. No information is available to me regarding the design or welding spec, Weighing this against a Viper enthusiasts opinion I honestly don't fell comfortable driving this vehicle. <font color="blue"> No one can tell you to feel comfortable. But I am very comfortable in mine and have heard of no weld quality related failures. These mechanics that believe welds afect the stiffness of the frame should go back to school. </font>
17)I would not feel comfortable allowing others to drive or be driven in this vehicle <font color="blue"> see above </font>
18)If a dealer installs a roof and it flies off the car something in the design of that roof is wrong. <font color="blue"> or the installer. Have you ever installed it? </font>
19) If the dealer cannot install a roof properly The manufacturer would not expect all of it's customers to be able to do it properly. <font color="blue"> Come on I had a dealer misinstall an oil filter. Should I return my car as it has a too difficult to install component on it? Anything can be done incorrectly. That does not mean that a defect exists.</font>
20)Better design of roof fasteners would remove all chance of error. I would expect for the quality of vehicle purchased only the best designs would be utilized. <font color="blue"> Buy a hardtop. That is your only chance of getting a car with zero chance of installation error. </font>
21)Watching a hard top roof frisbee a couple of feet over the car behind you is pretty scarry. I believe this to be a safety issue. <font color="blue"> Duh. Sopunds like it was never fastened at any location. I have had mine misinstalled (by me) and a corner lifted up first. Had I continued it may have come off. The only way I can visualize the roof just flying off is by not having either front lock engaged. Now that would be pretty dumb. </font>
22)DC is as they wish us to believe a responsible company <font color="blue"> and your argument is ... </font>
23)It would be fair to assume one could have issues as previously described corrected without having to utiize the courts. <font color="blue"> Not your request if it entails replacing the complete car because of poor welds. I can't believe that would hold water in any court. </font>
24)The day I took delivery of this vehicle I was extremely happy, now I am not, why? <font color="blue"> My guess is because you had incorrect expectations. Anyone who buys a Viper for the outstanding manufacturing quality because it is Dodge's most expensive car or for superior engineering when this is known to be a back-to-basics car, would be expected to be less than pleased. No where have I witnessed a sports car owning type of buyer perspective. You inspect your welds. Check door opening at extreme angles and all. But no where do you speak to the performance, handling, etc that are what the Viper is really known for. </font>

 

[Kevin]

Hi Steve;
I thought what I had said was pretty clear did I see broken welds? "No". Are there broken welds I don't know I returned the car to DC Leasing after the Xrays. I will probably never know the true cause of the flexing. it is no longer an issue short of the fact I can prove it was there. Again I must say The welds cannot be verified as to say they will not break and as such I don't trust that they won't or havn't. My issue is with the fact I did not get the quality vehicle I was sold.
should I be embarassed when the car is on a hoist and someone looks at the frame and says you paid how much?
I am not a welder by trade however do take pride in my work. If, as I sometimes do, make a weld that looks particulaly nasty I take out a grinder and try to clean it up before someone notices not that the weld was bad but even as a kid I tended to color outside the lines. Its called good workmanship You do the best you can, with what you have.
And before I again hear it the looks of a weld do not necessarily indicate it is not effective. Its just sad to see the end of craftsmanship.

In addition to points recently posted I would like to know now from everyone reading this, think hard.

Does DC trust it's dealers to represent DC with Honesty integrity and the best workmanship possible. Can I trust what I am told by a major DC dealer's service manager? If not why does DC not know? Or do they care?

I am not getting down on the dealers I am sure most take pride in their business and customer relations however some of them should be shown the door. It would benifit all dealers if they were made to operate within an equal set of rules. There should at least be a venue for reporting poor dealer relations. before it winds up in court. If DC believes you and not the dealer are their customer and DC empowers the dealer to represnt DC to deal with you. doesn't it follow DC should be responsible for the actions of their agents?

 

[Kevin]

Wellll...
Viper srt I guess your post really did change my perception. As you pointed out I should have read the brochures more closely. I was shopping for a quality built and got talked into a back to the basics car. I have no right to expect a waranty on a back to the basic car. Damn I knew I must have done something wrong. Otherwise why would everyone be so upset. Thanks for setting me straight brother.
My apologies to all

 

[Janni]

Kevin - the more I read the more confused I get.

1. What is the normal course for a "lemon law" type issue in Canada?
2. Has your dealer brought DC's Zone representative in to help you? In the US, a dealer can be instrumental in getting resolution to a customer dispute if they agree that the customer has a problem that they (the dealer) cannot solve. (The only thing you've said about your dealer is that they said your frame looks like all the other Vipers they have seen.) They bring in a Zone person and sometimes ZONE mechanics, etc. to determine the casue. If they can't fix, then they try to work with you toward an amicable agreement.
3. Has this been going on for the entire three years you have had this car? If so, my guess is that any legal recourse like lemon law will be expired. it's 18 months that I am familiar with here. If not, when did it start?
4. Do you have binding arbitration set up in Canada like they do in the US? Most major car companies will allow and independent 3rd party to assist in dispute resolution (as part of lemon law) and abide by thier decision. If it looks like it's not going to go their way, they usually offer to settle beforehand as it avoids a true "lemon law" ding.
5. How many days has your car been out of service due to this issue? Usually there is a 28/30 day requirement for lemon law OR a X times try to fix for the same problem. you don't really say how many times you've had the car inspected, repairs attempted, etc.
6. Has your dealer told you what is wrong - or have they just thrown up their hands and said "we don't know?" It seems to be that you have a symptom of a problem, but no determination of the cause. Until a cause can be found, it's the dealer's issue to either find it or give up. If they give up, then it'd be DC's issue, as their service outlets could not properly carry out their warranty.

Maybe it's just your writing style, but I don't see very many FACTS, but more I see your thoughts, assumptions, allegations, and disappointment.

When I went through a lemon law issue, it's important to clearly spell out things with dates you brought the car in for service, where it went for service, how many times it was in for the same problem, what was written on the repair order as far as the problem/complaint and if the dealer found anything. I can't see where you've said what (if anything) the dealer did or tried to do to fix your car's problem. if they haven't done anything, then another dealer might be in order, as well as a call to DC-Canada or look in the back of your warranty book and see what options are available to you (if that applies in CA)

Sorry for my ignorance in Canadian legal issues - but I have to think there is something similar to lemon law available to you.

And no, I am not trying to sell you anything, just trying to logially go through your complaint and share what I have seen in the past 7 years. My mentioning the track stuff was not to say DC should cover race vehicles, but to point out that MANY viper owners subject their cars to the rigors of track driving and SOME race their cars - of these cars, I have not seen issues such as you are stating that you have - and that harder use of track driving should have brought this weakness to the forefront MUCH faster than any daily driver use.

Your disappointment is evident. And I am sure that whomever inspected your car on the lift knew how unhappy you were and reinforced your disappointment by saying "you paid how much?", but that doesn't mean the car is substandard or that the person saying that knows what the car SHOULD look like. Nor does your loss of confidence take the place of an identified defect when asking for compensation from the manufacturer (unless of course, both your dealer and DC threw up their hands and said "we can't fix")

I am sorry you have had such a bad experience and wish you the best in getting it resolved.

 

[Steve-Indy]

THANKS, for the clarification on the welds, Kevin...and hopefully things will work out for you.

 

[carguy07]

Not to actually look for an answer to the problem, but is it possible that what he experienced was the body tub shifting on the frame. I can't find any good pictures of a car with the body off, but if it is anything like an older Vette or pickup truck, the body sits on bushings that support the tub and isolate it a little from vibration. If these were missing or misaligned I could see how the car would "flex" and not show any frame problems at all. Just a thought. Probably stupid.

 

[JDR]

Buyer's remorse gone wild? Naw... probably just "research gone wild", being the dealer was unable to fix it.

But, with such focus on a "possible" cause of body flex, without actual measurements of flex... like: "the door gap changed xx/inch when parked on a hill, so I couldn't open/close the doors - see, here's a photo on level ground, vs. on a hill - now THAT's body flex!".

Being door photos are MUCH more valuable in court than arguing about weld porosity, did your lawyer insure you had that "basic proof" of the "visible failures" before letting go of the car? ...please share it with us.

...and, I have to ask... Are you going to have the welds on your new Hummer x-rayed before accepting delivery? (I'm serious, and NOT being sarcastic... Being a Hummer weighs more than double a Viper and is for off-roading, they should have more than twice the steel structure, and near perfect welds, right?)

As for flex on "my" RT...
My frame is SOOOO stiff, that when I jack it up to put in on stands (for an oil change), I've noticed placing one of the jacks 1/4 an inch higher than the other three will cause the frame to "teater" back an forth on the taller jack, rather than flex and lay on all three. That's much less than 1/2 a degree of flex.

Being I'm about to change the oil again, I'd be happy to get a micrometer and see what my actual flex really is. It could be helpful in your case, if we had radically different "flex" numbers to show something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with your RT. ...but you need to get your hands back on your "proof" car to compare numbers.

Is frame flex something a Frame Shop can check in an hour or so? It shouldn't be too difficult to get the car back for a one-day inspection by a frame shop.

I was amaized at what a good frame shop was able to help me with (prior post).

 

[JDR]

Not to actually look for an answer to the problem, but is it possible that what he experienced was the body tub shifting on the frame. I can't find any good pictures of a car with the body off, but if it is anything like an older Vette or pickup truck, the body sits on bushings that support the tub and isolate it a little from vibration. If these were missing or misaligned I could see how the car would "flex" and not show any frame problems at all. Just a thought. Probably stupid.

Vipers don't have "tubs" like Corvettes or the old F-Body cars did. They literally sit you on the frame (there's sheetmetal connected directly to the frame rails that make up the floor, etc.)

To flex as bad as Kevin suggests, you're either missing steal or missing (or broken) welds (probably why he started looking that direction in the first place). The only way to know is to jack up his car from different points, while knowing know where to look and measure.

 

[Jon-Mike]

Kevin -

I do sincerely hope you resolve the situation, but it seems that you are mostly wanting to argue with some really nice people trying to objectively offer you suggestions, insight, and additional logic.

You were the one that earlier in the thread stated:

By reading some of these posts it seems I have struck a nerve here, sorry if anyone is offended by what I have written. I think I will drop it here. leave the deciding to the membership. I'm going shopping for a Hummer.
Best regards; Kevin

It seems, though, that you keep coming back. If you are going to do so, it's just pretty poor that you continue to be so condescending. It sounds to me that you don't want any advice really, so if that's the case, I'd go Hummer color shopping and save yourself some aggravation.

 

[Kevin]

Hi Janni:
I have read your post and will try to cover the points you made. First let me set one thing straight I have the utmost respect for the participation and genuine concern you have provided to many in this venue. I have read many posts and have found your views to be fair and balanced when dealing with tough situations and personalities. I am sure you have garnered respect and gratitude from many on this site my self included. I didn't mean to take a snope at you and I certainly didn't mean to imply you are merely a salesman. Just an attempt to lighten up the mood. You have to understand this matter is before the courts. What I am able to say in some cases can only be generalised. most of the information you are requesting is already in previous posts.
to be quite honest this thread has gotten way out of control. in 24 hours close to 800 reads and 35 replies and counting. Proves how much these people love the car. Although I suppose some could interpet what I have said as attacks and allegations some have even said threats. Believe me not true Sometimes in generalising you throw out what if scenarios to illicit a response. I did not say I was definetly going to start a class action suit. I am exploring it as a possibility This in no way is a threat just the truth. In Canada there are no Lemon laws as such. I have to rely on the courts to settle this dispute as I have been given no alternative. Escalating to class action has the major benifit that I would not have to pay any more legal expenses to get to a resolution. I would have a legal team as opposed to a lawyer. The escallation also has the downside that a lot more of my time would be spent and a resolution could take years. Try running a business without credit. Not easy. The long and the short here is I have a genuine defect problem unless anyone here is prepared to say the door problems the leaks and the dealer adjusting the doors so they don't align with the body are not issues. All of wich DC and the dealer did not say they couldn't fix, That would have shown me some respect. The fact is I couldn't get them to say anything. Other than DC telling me they were prepared to honor their waranty But saw no problem. The dealer who installed the roof said this was definetly a warantee issue and the roof had come off as a result. On 2 occasions the car was given to the dealer for inspection by Chrysler I still have a file number and a name of a District manager, who, was to attend and provide me with an engineers report. To this day I have not recieved that report although I have had many promises. A judge ordered the dealer to return the roof so I could get an independant evaluation of why it came off. The dealer now contends they lost the roof if you can believe it. Generally what has happened since I took delivery of the car in my current case as outlined has not repaired the problems that existed with the car when I recieved it The dealer and DC had their chance to fix it and failed in that obligation. So I have asked to recend the lease.

Sorry I cannot tell you much more until this case is a little farther along.
Best regards; Kevin

 

[Gerald Levin]

Kevin, You and I are both businessmen, but we are complete oppposites. If I had the same problems as you are experiencing, I would simply resell the viper or have someone assume my lease (depending on the situation) and take my loss and then have a good day. Obviously, you are not David, and to pick a fight with Goliath, is going to cost you aggravation, and quite possibly a ton of money (in addition to your credit rating as stated above). But I'm enjoying life to its fullest and if I have to take a loss on something so I can continue my lifestyle, I do it in a heartbeat and move on. Money is secondary, your happiness and peace of mind is primary. I wish you luck in your pursuit against DC, I feel you may need it.

 

[Jay Herbert]

Interesting thread. I am a mechanical engineer and responsible for welding compressors that must meet UL standards. Porosity and spatter does not indicate a bad weld. The prior can lead to leaks, which are repairable, but neither indicate a bad weld. Many things cause spatter, tip to part distance, weld wire feed speeds, surface condition (oils), shielding gas issues, to many items to list. Unless the weld looked like all "frothy" (like the suds on top of a fizzy Coke) which indicates a complete lack of shielding gas, it is likely the weld is stronger than the base material.

Xrays are neat, but to properly evaluate a weld, it really needs to be cross sectioned and polished. This is the best way to measure weld *********** into the base metal.

I have seen some pretty wadded up Vipers over the years, no broken welds, complete sections of the frame torn off, but not at the welds. The Vipers frame is made of materials that require special welding materials, and as a result, spatter is not that out of the norm.

As for the top. They fly off when not properly latched. Sadly, it happens. If properly latched, it stays on. Once the top does this, it is really hard to verify the root cause. As most dealers do not work with very many Vipers, the lack of experience makes it highly possible they did not latch the top properly.

It is unfortunate that you were unhappy with your car and the way the dealer treated you. But from what you have written, it does not look like you'll ever be convinced that your non-engineer mechanic is wrong.

 

[luc]

Kevin,

sorry to hear about your problem but, the frame issue on a Viper is really a "non-issue".
You car could indeed have a defective frame but that would be the exception, not the rule in regard to Viper frames.

As many have previously stated,the frame is very strong and stiff.
When all is said and done, the viper is nothing more than a factory Kit car, with all the + and - of such a design/construction.

I never saw so many shimes nor variations in tolerances on a production car than on a Viper.
After all, if you reads threads on hood alignement or battery,we will see that some have a good fit,some don't,on some an Optima battery will fit right in the battery tray,on some others there is not enough clearance,etc.

As for craftmanship,regarding welds or other issues,even if DC put a little card in the car that state that the viper was manufactured with pride by "craftpersons",I have to agree with you.

it seems that some of the line workers do indeed take pride in their job and are worthy of the title "craftperson" but the majority are just drawing a paycheck and couldn't care less about "craft" or making a nice weld or not splattering sealant all around a weatherstrip on a car that most of them can't afford.

good luck.

Luc.
00GTS

 

[newredrt10]

Kevin

Can You post some pictures of the things your talking about.
I would be interested on seeing the motor mount area. You said you can see the problem. I would also like to see the frount of the motor where the cross brace is. Is the frame pulling this brace apart or is it under compression. After reading everything you said it sounds like its not there.

 

[Flexx91]

Kevin,

Don't be confused by what some NDT technician is telling you. Weld quality whether acceptable or unacceptable is a function a some sort of standard (someone mentioned this in an earlier post). Porosity in itself is not a weld defect unless is falls outside of the parameters of some code (AWS, ASME, API, CSA, etc.). In others words, some porosity in welds is acceptable as along long as it fall within those limits. A weld discontinuity (porosity, undercut, incomplete joint ***********, excessive weld spatter) is not a weld defect unless it exceeds codes parameters. You'll have to find out which (if any) welding code was used in fabrication and have a someone determine if the welds are "defective".

 

[thebigsnake]

I share the same opinion as Gerald Levine. The absurdity of this case isn't leaving my head. Life is too short and too full of real adversities for you to do this to yourself. As I understand it your frame didn't even fail. You want a low volume hand made car with prettier welds, pay half a million dollars and buy a Murcialago.
You shoud move on. Take a trip to Cuba and have some good cigars.

 

[Viperfreak2]

A better question is 'missing' welds. Someone starts to weld the frame, goes on a lunch break, comes back to forget where they left off......a good lawyer would eat that one up! No arguement on missing the 'specifications' there. As far as flexy bodies goes, you couldn't open the doors of my 308 Ferrari while on a lift. The Viper is FAR more solid than 95% of other convertibles. Mercedes SLtank500 not withstanding. My RT-10 also rubbed the door seal. So what. I love to complain about things, but I also know a no-win situation when I see it. Kevin, let it go. You are the only one in this bringing down the value of your Viper by advertising it. Just my opinion.

 

[Kevin]

Some of the recent posts leave me to believe I should be a little more clear regarding my problem with the car. I am not talking about a sticky door you add a little grease or WD40 and everything is Tikety Boo. I'm talking about grabbing hold of the steering wheel and raming your shoulder into the door 4 or 5 times to get it to open. My wife has a slight build (can't say how much she weighs women are like that.) She can't open the door.
As someone sugested I am twisting the car at all angles and looking for a problem. Im talking about the drive up ramp to the dealers service department were the front wheels are no more than 3 inches higher than the back. When I demonstrated this to the service manager he was shocked I believe his words were "there is definetely something wrong there". In Canadian Dollars I paid over 100K for this car I believe to buy a Dukes of Hazard car couldn't cost half of that. And to be honest it was not what I had in mind.
Picture this I drive up to the Harbor Castle Hilton dressed for a Formal Dinner. I or the valet could not get the passenger door open. My wife was not going to climb through the window so I backed the car out to the street were the we both exited. My wife has never been so pissed at me in her life. Word spread The MC made light of it by anouncing to all There was a great deal on a Viper with doors that don't work. And added how we must be in great physical condition to travel around in that car. For the rest of the evening I heard my share of Dukes of hazard jokes. I Came close to nailing some drunk who insisted on calling my wife Daisy.
It has always been my experience That Hand built was a selling feature not an excuse. This Notion that a Viper is the 8th wonder doesn't fly with me It's a nice car nothing more. Just a car a tool to get you around. I had hoped when I bought it with some prestige. The doors should work. When the dealer figured out it couldn't be fixed he ran away from the problem rather than deal with it. That's the real issue. It was suggested I pass a car I know has problems on to someone else, Sorry not who I am. As for the idea I went looking for a fight with anyone Wrong again The lease agreement I signed leaves me no alternative but to defend myself and counter Sue for damages. Why should I pay a ton of my cash for someone else's mistakes and shrink away in fear of the mega corporate bosses. Contrary to what most of you think DC is just a company selling a product not someone you have to fear. They are just as vulnerable in court as you are. If the judge says your right you win if he says your wrong you loose. I believe I am right we'll soon know. If Manufacturers have their feet put to the fire occasionally it can have positive results Maybe an improved product. To look at the pictures of the frame welds on this car you simply if honest have to think this could be improved. If they turn out messy how long would it take to clean them up? If there was a standard specified why not make it public. So no one would have any doubt. Just to say DC is huge and we should all be humbled they would never mislead me I'm important to them I own a Viper. Sounds a little silly doesn't it.
When this thread started I stated the Frame is a mess I said it because refering to my car it is a fact.
I would like anyone who have taken their shots to show me A GM, Ford, Volkswagon or a Lada with messier looking welds out of the factory. If you want to get into the hand built argument Let's talk about sports cars show me one. Lets expand that and say show me any welded consumer product costing more than 1000.00 I honestly can't think of one Bridge beams, Bicyles, Kitchen tables, Chairs, anyone?

 

[GR8_ASP]

Hearing your arguments again in a different light makes me think the Viper is not the right type of car for you. I think even if the door issue did not exist that something else would come to the top of the list and be just as disappointing. Can you imagine driving in a rain with tux and tails, ballroom dresses and such and having some water intrude on your wonderful evening. Happened to just about everyone at VOI3 and I didn't hear much complaining about the car. That is because the good aspects outweighed the negative. It sounds like you just have not discovered any good aspects.

Regarding the frame weld quality and follow-up comments about CAAP employees. Let's be fair here. The frame was received at CAAP assembled and welded. Any quality issue would have been at the supplier (of course with CAAP supplier quality responsible). That would not releive DC of responsibility, but it does mean any comments toward the plant employees is displaced. Just too difficult to conceive of a frame so wimpy that a 3 inch difference in front to rear elevation could cause excessive distortion.

Beyond that I agree with Jay. My guess is that you have a poorly adjusted door or doors and the dealer you took it to did not know how to adjust it properly.

 

[Mopar Steve]

Sell the car and move on.

 

[Kevin]

Geez Ron I kind if though that myself A Viper probably doesn't meet my expectations and I have been pondering what I would buy to replace it. You are obviously pleased with yours. I have to wonder if your doors on your 2003 had similar problems and the only help you got was to have the top of the doors moved 3/4 " inside the body lines then after admitting a problem existed and couldn't be fixed. nothing more was done to rectify the problem.
How you would react when someone suggested (who obviosly is happy with his car) Maybe the Viper is not the right car for you. Adjust the doors?? Been done twice. A Viper couldn't possibly have had a manufacturing problem?

Ron your last post says clearly you are a Car salesmans wet dream. Read my last post again you clearly did not understand something in what was written.
Now when you go to bed tonight get nice and relaxed an say this to yourself slowly
"It's just a car"
try it for a week if it doesn't help seek profesional advice.

Remember slowly "" It's just a car""

 

[JDR]

Kevin,

I can understand why you'd want to shoot the horse (car) when its lame door trapped your wife in the car.

In the stress of the moment (or any of the "door jam" moments), did using the manual-override handle work any differently than using the inside or outside electric releases?

I ask, because if the door was "jammed", I believe you wouldn't be able to pull the mechanical release all the way down either (the door MUST move off the catch-pin for the mechanical handle to pull down fully, I believe).
...just curious.

As for the car not being right for you - my 2nd choice was a Porche 911 Cabriolet Turbo, being yours appears to be a Hummer, I'm at a complete loss as to what kind of car you are hunting for.

Anyhow, back to the "wet-noodle" Viper... If there is ANY way you could get your hands on it, I bet TODAY you would have at least 50 Viper owners that would LOVE to see such an odditiy.

...why again did it take 3 years to post this problem? With the support you can get from this group, you'd get it resolved. In other words, if the problem were found and fixed by a skilled Viper mechanic, would you still think you feel you'd be driving a Dodge Charger?

 

[GR8_ASP]

I don't think you can turn the tables on this. I do not have an issue with my car. BTW I had a poor front fascia fit. A dealer tried to adjust it and just could not do a decent job of it. I went out and hired 2 of the "craftpeople" from CAAP who came to my house and made a perfect adjustment. So do I believe just because a dealer tried and failed that it cannot be just an adjustment. No. That doesn't mean that it has to be, but most dealers only see a few Vipers and probably only one of the type of repair you sought. Now how much expertise does that dealer have if he hasn't done that particular repair before? It was also said above that the Gen I and II Vipers have lots of spacers to get things to line up. If a dealer mistakenly didn't use or misused those spacers he would be hard pressed to ever get it right. I would have tried a different and more experienced dealer before giving up. But that is just me. Someone who really cares about his cars.

And no, I don't believe I need to reread your post. It was your comment, and I quote " ... It's a nice car nothing more. Just a car a tool to get you around. I had hoped when I bought it with some prestige." To me that is when I understood that your expectations of the Viper did not match the intent of the Viper. Just a mismatch. Not an indication that you or the car are inferior, just that the two are not a viable match. No hard feelings.

The Viper is certainly not everyones cup of tea. It has a select but very ardent following. And yes, when someone bemoans an aspect of the Viper like frame stifness (one of the Vipers strong points by the way) as a widespread factory defect that should reduce the value of enough Vipers to warrant a class action suit, Viper owners respond accordingly.

 

[luc]

Ron,

You said that my comments toward the plants employes (craftpersons?) is displaced and to "prove" you state that you "hired" 2 craftpersons from the plan to adjust your facia and they did a perfect job.

Don't you realize how funny it is?

1/ The crafpersons during production of your Viper didn't perform a correct alignement on your facia.

2/ When you hire and PAID those "same" craftpersons, they can do it

That only prove 3 things:

A/ They knew how to do it and a perfect alignement was possible.

B/If they were "real" craftpersons they will have done it correctly the first time during production/assembly

C/ They took a lot more pride in their job when they worked for themselves and/or for cash than for DC.

Luc.
00GTS

 

[Kevin]

I reiterate Ron it really is "Just a car."

 

[ChoiceViper]

If it's "just a car", why must you hang around and post all day? Many of us are die hard auto enthusiasts, and don't look at our rides as "just cars". They are part of our personality.

Has anyone on this site EVER had a frame problem? (besides the recall stuff)

You go get that Hummer big guy. Leave the exclusive/handbuilt stuff to people who can appreciate it.

 

[ViperRay]

I think this horse is dead already!