Viper in danger...

[chorps]

Hi guys,

First time poster here, long-time lurker. At the risk of sounding inflammatory, I just wished to alert you guys to the possibility of the next generation Viper being cancelled. Before you start dismissing me as a crackpot or Viper hater, I have driven a Viper and I am totally hooked. However, I can't afford one (yet).

I know someone very close to the next generation Viper project and although I have more specific details than this, I cannot and will not divulge them. Although I didn't sign an NDA, my informant most likely did and regardless he would face disciplinary action or dismissal if his bosses found out it was him who said things that wound up here.

The reason the Viper is in danger is because of the Challenger, simply put. The next generation Viper will share much of the technology that is coming with the Firepower, and the Challenger occupies the same price region as the Firepower. If DC decides that the Challenger will be built, and guessing by the response that I've been seeing about this new concept, the Challenger will make the showroom cut.

DC's issue is that they will then have 3 high end sports cars. The Viper they would like to build, but the cost of development must be shared with the Firepower in order for it to be competitive with the Corvette (on both fronts, the Firepower v. Corvette on the low end, and the Viper v. Z06 on the high end). Take one product away and the other may not survive.

So what is the point in telling you guys this? Well, I guess the reason why I was told was either to get my Viper now, or to make sure you guys spread the word about how great the Viper is, and to rally support around the Firepower as well. There will be a lot of noise about the new Challenger and it really is a great looking car.

If everyone here can convince DC that they can build 3 sports cars so much the better, but if it came down to a choice between the Viper and the Challenger, I want the Viper to win. A real business case supporting the Firepower and Viper might make management listen.

Some of you will call BS on me and ask for proof or some level of credibility. Unfortunately due to the source I cannot give you any more details. Thanks for listening.

 

[06 VIPER]

Interesting!

 

[sween]

thats sad to hear. i dont understand why they dont just make all three because then they will have a fighter for everything.
(challenger vs. mustang)
(firepower vs. corvette)
(viper vs. z06)
the nextgen viper will make alot of money if dc does what the VCA owners want. the new coupe hasnt made enough money as the others because the VCA said that they want it to be at the top and sadly that isnt the case (i still love the coupe though).the challenger will also make alot of money because finally people will have a choice other than the mustang. if they need to cut one car it should be the firepower. all it is (even though it is awesome) is a low powered, luxurious viper. has anybody ever asked for that (answer NO).if they end up to cut the viper it will be very sad because enthusiasts like me will never be able to get a new viper when were able to afford them.

 

[Asp Man]

To quote Eric Ridenour, DC's C.O.O. "When it's time to discuss what comes next (speaking directly about the Viper, mind you), it won't be a discussion of what might be - it will be a discussion of what will be."
As well, John Bucci who headed the original R/T 10 design team has recently replaced Ralph Gilles, the design chief of the SRT 10 Coupe. Why would they do that? I speculate that DC is taking a clean sheet aproach to the Gen 4 Viper.
My 2 cents...

 

[sween]

To quote Eric Ridenour, DC's C.O.O. "When it's time to discuss what comes next (speaking directly about the Viper, mind you), it won't be a discussion of what might be - it will be a discussion of what will be."
As well, John Bucci who headed the original R/T 10 design team has recently replaced Ralph Gilles, the design chief of the SRT 10 Coupe. Why would they do that? I speculate that DC is taking a clean sheet aproach to the Gen 4 Viper.
My 2 cents...

thats very interesting

 

[MoparMan]

sween is right - the Challenger's price point will be below that of the Firepower! and should not be a problem. The word is that the Chally will be priced at about $28k for the R/T and about $37K for the SRT-8. The base Firewpower! is to be priced slightly above a base vette and the top of the line Firepower! (which I've heard will not have the Viper's V-10) will be in the high $60K range. I expect the gen IV Viper to be priced similarly to the current gen III coupe meaning that there will be roughly a $20k spread between the high end of each model.

 

[Nader]

Wasnt there a quote from the recently departed SRT Director in the most recent Viper mag that mentions that he has been involved with the development of the next Viper and is sure everyone will be extremely happy with the results...

I will have to go back to the magazine and pull the actual quote.

 

[plumcrazy]

and the challenger will end up being a four door hemi with 5 more HP than it has now.

genius idea DC...just genius

 

[Paul Hawker]

All the automotive manufacturers have delved into niche marketing to survive. They need to make more specialized models to get the sales volume, where before they just made millions of Impalas.

Each model must make it's own business case. The challenger will not be a competition to the Viper. The driving experience is totally different.
Using the Viper frame and major components to produce the Firepower! with a V-8 will help make the Viper business case, not diminish it.

Challenger will be another niche vehicle to expand on the 300/Charger/Magnum/Imperial chassis. All using similar frame, brakes, engines, transmissions, etc.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

I am not worried, not even a little bit. The published quotes from various DC and SRT people indicate the program is alive and moving forward in a big way. While the Challenger and Firepower are great (wouldn't mind either one as a daily driver), the Viper is a "marquee" car that gets the press that every manufacturer so greatly desires. The Viper is synonymous with the resurgence of Chrysler in the '90's.

I would bet that the Viper has gotten more cover shots per year on major magazines than any other car out there. When it comes to top speed shoot-outs and darn near any comparison test, which car is generally pictured front and center on the cover? Hell, go look at all the magazines that ran a Viper vs. C6 Z06 comparison: The cover usually has the Viper as the "feature" car with the Vette in the background, like this:

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Dodge simply can't buy that kind of publicity. Nor will the Challenger or the Firepower get this kind of media coverage. You will never see either of these cars featured in stories such as:

<ul type="square"> [*]Top Speed Shoot Outs [*]Sports Cars vs. Air Force Jets [*]Exotic Car Comparisons [*]Tuner Competitions [*]USA vs. Italian Cars [*]And many more [/list] The Challenger looks retro and the Firepower looks more exotic. Just like the PT Cruiser and the Crossfire. Neither of which continue to capture the imagination of the automotive press or millions of auto enthusiasts around the world. There is only one car that continues to do that day in and day out for ANY DaimlerChrysler product: The Viper. How many pony cars have graced the cover of the Dupont Registry?

I say buy the current Vipers (especially the Coupes) while you have the chance. There is no telling what the next generation promises. Or even if it will be built at this point. But it sure should be.

 

[ledfoot]

chorps,what kind of guy signs an NDA, then blabs to a clown that spills the beans all over the internet.

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[Jim Z]

The reason the Viper is in danger is because of the Challenger, simply put. The next generation Viper will share much of the technology that is coming with the Firepower, and the Challenger occupies the same price region as the Firepower. If DC decides that the Challenger will be built, and guessing by the response that I've been seeing about this new concept, the Challenger will make the showroom cut.

Sorry, don't buy it. The Challenger and Firepower are two completely different kinds of vehicles. IMHO, if the Firepower pushes anything out of the lineup, it'd be something like the Crossfire that gets the axe.

DC's issue is that they will then have 3 high end sports cars. The Viper they would like to build, but the cost of development must be shared with the Firepower in order for it to be competitive with the Corvette (on both fronts, the Firepower v. Corvette on the low end, and the Viper v. Z06 on the high end). Take one product away and the other may not survive.

Nah. The Challenger is a 2+2 pony car. The Firepower concept was a luxury GT 2-seater w/ a V8. The Viper would remain the V-10 brute that it is.

Some of you will call BS on me and ask for proof or some level of credibility. Unfortunately due to the source I cannot give you any more details. Thanks for listening.

That doesn't really lend much to your credibility.

 

[George Farris]

Ledfoot, you hit the nail on the head.

That leaves chorps with a ledfoot in his mouth!

The boy needs to go back to the vette forum.

 

[SweetRed04]

All the automotive manufacturers have delved into niche marketing to survive. They need to make more specialized models to get the sales volume, where before they just made millions of Impalas.

Each model must make it's own business case. The challenger will not be a competition to the Viper. The driving experience is totally different.
Using the Viper frame and major components to produce the Firepower! with a V-8 will help make the Viper business case, not diminish it.

Challenger will be another niche vehicle to expand on the 300/Charger/Magnum/Imperial chassis. All using similar frame, brakes, engines, transmissions, etc.

I think you are EXACTLY on with your comments.

 

[chorps]

chorps,what kind of guy signs an NDA, then blabs to a clown that spills the beans all over the internet.

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Thanks for the ad hominem attack. I've known my contact for a very long time, before his DC association. As far as spilling beans, I've spilt none as the specific details of the new products have not revealed. I am passing along _his_ concerns regarding the future of a project that he has great knowledge about. Obviously if it was under his control I wouldn't be discussing this topic here.

The Firepower project is intimately associated with the Viper project, so if DC gets cold feet about the Firepower, Viper may get cancelled along with the Firepower. DC is very concerned about the fact that the budget of developing the best American supercar has been raised by Ford (and GM).

I don't mean to get strident, but this is not a case of Viper vs. Challenger directly. It's a case of Challenger vs. Firepower (Crossfire will die a deservedly horrible death). Some (marketing) people in DC think that sports cars are only useful as marketing tools, so having 3 high profile vehicles is 1 too many.

The biggest threat to the Firepower is that it is a new niche product. It is not a direct Corvette or Mustang competitor, but a product that will be a 'poor man's' Aston Martin. The model variation will be a low end 5.7 and a higher end 6.1. The rest will share as much technology with the upcoming Viper as they can. The concern is that Firepower may be as 'successful' as Crossfire, so the Challenger is an easy out for management, as it will sell well 'guaranteed'.

A lot of work has been done on both the Viper and Firepower, and no one outside of management knows what the direct future of Firepower/Viper will be.

If you recall the ME412, they had running mules before they cancelled that project, so spent engineering dollars are not a good indication of whether a project will launch or not.

As to me being accused a Corvette fanboy, heck ya, I am. It's a fantastically engineered machine, and the Z06 will get better as GM refines the product. I just like the Viper more than the Vette. Corvette == sportscar, Viper == supercar. Z06 comes so close though.

I'm not trying to attack Viper owners or gloat that the product faces some difficulties. What I'm trying to say is that if you know anyone who wants a coupe in the price range and target of the Firepower, you had better get them to speak loudly so DC will hear and make the choice of going with Challenger, Firepower AND Viper. If they can put deposits on Firepowers to get in line, so much the better.

Some of you may think that I'm talking out of my @ss, and if DC decides to make all the products, then you can dismiss this as a deluded rant. However, if things go sideways and the Firepower project pulls down the Viper, don't say that you weren't forewarned. I guess we'll know by 2008.

 

[ledfoot]

Did this long time friend give you the o.k to blab over the internet, or are you a complete **** ?...................

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[SRT10]

As to me being accused a Corvette fanboy, heck ya, I am. It's a fantastically engineered machine, and the Z06 will get better as GM refines the product.

What nonsense! Some guy from the Corvette forum prints this BS expecting someone to believe it. The C6 is not "a fantastically engineered machine". At 400hp it is underpowered and only after one year of production! Don't expect GM to "refine the product". It only took them 7 years to increase the power of the C5 5HP and they still couldn't fix the steering wheel lockup problems that plagued the C5s! Plus GM is in a financial mess and could be facing chapter 11.
The desperation of GM is evident when they copy the styling of the Viper SRT and the PT Cruiser.
Remember, DC never made a profit with the Viper! Only 17,000 Vipers have been built since 1992. Those numbers would have killed any other car model long ago.
The Viper is Dodges "marque". It's what people go to see at car shows. It's what attracts people to the Dodge brand. It is Americas only true Sports Car

Hey buddy is your name Dave Hill?

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

I guess the first issue I typically have with stuff like this is when people come on here, CLAIMING to be a "lurker for so long". And thereby somehow giving themselfs some suedo credibility. Who cares, maybe if you registered a name 2-3 years ago, and just never posted.. sure.. but otherwise... as far as I am concerned you are probably some clown who has been on here before under another name and dont want to associate yourself with this post, or you are some troll, just coming to start some crap.

In any case, its not like we need YOU to tell us how to interact with DC and tell them what we want, or expect from them. As we do that every day. Viper club is more insync with the company that makes our cars, then almost any other club/car manufacturer IN THE WORLD.

Thanks for the sky is falling crap. I placed my faith in Dodge years ago, re-affirmed it about 3 months ago, and will continue to do so. (They might be a little slow outta the hole this last year or two) but they will strike back... its what Vipers do when confronted... We STRIKE BACK. We dont lay down.


Jon

 

[M. ROD]

Like before,

here is a site for you "fancy/nancy " vette guys: web page

 

[04 SRT10 Owner]

So now that you've forewarned us great oracle what should we do? Start ******* all over ourselves or maybe I should drive over a cliff screaming "I've Been warned" all the way to the bottom.
No I've got an idea I'll sell my car and buy #1/25000 corvette. DC will be so impressed they surely will stop production in mid 2006.
Look the bottom line is the car could be cut tomorrow or not, so what. I say if one wants one of the greatest sports cars in the world then buy a Viper.I've got a 2004 with RSI TT And other goodies and recently # 19/200 2006 FE SRTC. When the 2008 GenIV comes out I'll buy one of those too because I'm sure the car will have state of the art features and more HP than all the predecessors and be a kick*ss car to drive.
Unless your name is Eric Ridenour and your bringing factual info to this forum I think most of us would hope that you go to some other forum and try spooking them.What is your agenda and what do you hope to gain by posing as the grim reaper of the Viper. Say hasn't anyone ever told you playing around with venomous snakes is dangerous!

 

[MoparMan]

chorps - my understanding is that the pricing of the Firepower! (if produced) would be aimed squarely at the vette - thus making it a competitor and not a poor man's Aston Martin. This type of pricing will be key, as the Firepower! as a product would not have any chance of success with any higher pricing. Too high and it will infringe on the Viper's territory in the market. The Crossfire came out overpriced and this killed its sales. DCX is painfully aware of the mistakes made with the Crossfire and its employees hinted as much at SEMA, saying that those mistakes would not be repeated with the Firepower!.

 

[chorps]

Did this long time friend give you the o.k to blab over the internet, or are you a complete **** ?...................

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Yeah, he said I could talk about the situation but not mention specifics.

I'm surprised that there's a bunch of guys here who want to turn this into a vette bashing forum. I don't own a vette, I think it's a nice car, but my original premise is still sound I believe. This discussion has nothing to do with the corvette.

I really would like to discuss things on the original thesis and not get it threadjacked into some flame war.

There's just significant discussion that the Viper cannot sustain the development costs alone, it requires the Firepower to share it. I'm not asking whether the Viper can beat up my dad or your dad and I'm not seeking your approval of me as a person. I am saying there is a worry about the Firepower project and how it is going to affect the Viper.

 

[Warfang]

Some of you may think that I'm talking out of my @ss, and if DC decides to make all the products, then you can dismiss this as a deluded rant.

I vote: deluded rant.

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[chorps]

So now that you've forewarned us great oracle what should we do? Start ******* all over ourselves or maybe I should drive over a cliff screaming "I've Been warned" all the way to the bottom.
No I've got an idea I'll sell my car and buy #1/25000 corvette. DC will be so impressed they surely will stop production in mid 2006.

Did I say anything like this? My post clearly indicated that support for DC's Firepower project was most likely the best course of action. I think the new Viper and Firepower will be kick@ss vehicles and what number corvette you want to buy has no bearing on this discussion.

 

[chorps]

chorps - my understanding is that the pricing of the Firepower! (if produced) would be aimed squarely at the vette - thus making it a competitor and not a poor man's Aston Martin. This type of pricing will be key, as the Firepower! as a product would not have any chance of success with any higher pricing. Too high and it will infringe on the Viper's territory in the market. The Crossfire came out overpriced and this killed its sales. DCX is painfully aware of the mistakes made with the Crossfire and its employees hinted as much at SEMA, saying that those mistakes would not be repeated with the Firepower!.

My contact didn't tell me the exact pricing, but they really want to be agressive with pricing since they screwed up Crossfire and Pacifica launches so bad by overpricing. I think the model that will compete with the corvette will be the performance version (R/T). The standard version with the 5.7 hemi will come in at a significantly lower price point than the vette, and this is where it gets dicey, as the top end Challenger may occupy this space. This part is the big worry, as some people in DC may push to move the Firepower upmarket, which leads to your conclusion about infringement.

Personally I think there's tons room in that space for both Challenger R/T and the base Firepower. I think they occupy very different niches but some people at DC aren't so confident about Firepower.

I don't know if my contact has got any new info on the marketing aspect of Firepower, and I don't know if he'd tell me about the marketing end of it anyhow, but they really want to undercut Corvette hard and deliver alot of value for the money. If you compare the SRT8s to the CTS-V you can see what I'm getting at.

 

[chorps]

[quoteI vote: deluded rant.

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[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

 

[Gavin]

What a load of crap
and who cares anyway - they stopped building Vipers with the final production run in 2002 - they called them the "Final Edition" and DC meant it.

 

[ulllose]

As much is everyone is bashing your balls chorps
i appreciate the heads-up. In due time the truth will be let out and then at that point people can call out "BS" or whatever.
I feel your just stating "what you heard" and I'm not sure why everyone is jumping all over your S^%T.

What don't you guys think people at DC in development Areas have friends?? People talk. I had pics of the 06 z-06 4 months before GM let the press release the pictures ,,huuummmm i wonder how that happened

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Ok, so Chorps pm'ed me, and I'm not giving him any street credibility or anything. But Wether its a true statement or not, being objective on this one, I think its perfectly ok to have a healthy conversation around it.

We do A lot of what if's here, so whats wrong with engaging in such a dialogue, and then making sure when we see our famed DC members, we articulate that we obviously wouldn't be please with the discontinuance of the Viper. Regardless of this post or not, we do need to show DC we do support our brand, but we are the most critical of it, we expect more of it and us.

Jon

 

[Hirohawa]

Killing the Viper program would be unpatriotic and extremely stupid.

The Viper is a Halo car and brings credibility to the entire American arm of DC.

Also they would go out with a whimper - finishing second or last place in all the recent tests is not the way you want to leave your final impression.

They must hit back and hit back hard - lighter and faster and with a stunning (see Gen I&amp;II) design.