What is the latest condition of the Barber instructor injured?

[GTS Jeff]

"The instructor's attorney has told my ins co that he intends to sue me beyond the policy limits. Hinting around $500,000 pain & suffering. His medical bills are purportably close to $100,000. He will be suing the race track, SRT, Barber & maybe the club."


Doesn't the VCA have 1 million liability insurance for its members at vca events?

 

[JonB]

That's horrible! Is there actually a basis for the instructor to sue the driver anyway?

Are we certain that he's suing?

[/QUOTE]


Y E S.

 

[JonB]

Doesn't the VCA have 1 million liability insurance for its members at vca events?

This was NOT a VCA event.

Even if it was, it is my recollection that the VCA policy does not cover on-track activities.

 

[JonB]

I feel bad about the instructor getting hurt, but it was an ACCIDENT. If he sues anybody he has lost ALL of my sympathy.

If what is posted in items above is true, [I believe it is] his bills and wages will be paid.

Our VCA member-driver had NEVER turned even 1 lap on any race track in his ACR Viper. He had NEVER participated in any hot-lap events or schools, save that he did drive a D-C loaner SRT10 at VOI-8 Dallas in ONE instructed track session. Period. Ken was and is a TOTAL ROOKIE NOVICE.

As a long-time instructor myself, while I remain sympathetic and compassionate, I am VERY conflicted about my initial charitable attitude. Since his medical bills and lost wages are (apparently) to be paid, if [we] also decide to send him donations are we not, in effect, helping him sue the VCA member with those funds?

If this had been a private pilot instructor and brand-new student, we know where the majority of the fault would lie.

 

[Janni]

Oh my.

I sure as hell hope that we haven't sent him all the money that was collected (mildly extorted) from all the VCA regions.

Here's a few random thoughts:

If he's going to have lifelong injuries / partial disability, etc. - no one should really be surprised that he's suing. I am sure he has been under a ton of pressure to "get something" out of this - esp if it is going to impact his ability to pursue his dream or pay the bills for his family.

I am truly surprised that this hasn't happened sooner. Putting a bunch of testosterone laden rookies on "road course in a bowl" and thinking that you can have a Skip Barber instructor give you 10 minutes of classroom and then let to honk down the front straight is borderline insanity. Esp knowing what these cars are capable of. Also - in a Gen II - the instructor may not have been fully aware of the cars idiosyncracies and expected it to be like an SRT.... And - what the instructor TOLD the student may or may not have registered or been understood - like I said - 10 minutes of classroom.......

I am also amazed that we haven't had more tire and/or mechanical failures at an event like this - Sunday driven Vipers with 10 year old tires (but there is TONS of tread left!!!) Or brake fluid that looks like my morning cup of coffee....

I wouldn't be too ******* the guy - he's probably just doing what he thinks is right in order to take care of himself / his family - and he's probably been under a ton of pressure to do so.

I do expect, however, that this will be the end of track events at VOI, at best, and the end of VOI's at worst.

 

[TBarrow]

I am new to the Viper but have and still do participate in Porsche DE Events (996 cab). When in the green class you always have an instructor but Janni is right on. Each of my instructors used different terminology and it is not until day 2 that I am comfortable with their directions. I was at Texas World Speedway on Oct. 1st and another driver was in a Gen II. The instructor was telling him to push it harder and it ended up in an off road event. I do like the Viper on the track better than my 911 but they are both fun to drive.

 

[Bob K]

First of all, I think it takes ba11s to be an instructor for such an event and I would never do it. If I did I would want to know the experience of the driver whose car I was about to ride in. During my track session at VOI9 I had 4 different instructors and not one asked me what my track experience was. Additionally, none of the cars had a tech inspection so the issue of tire age, brake fluid, etc. was never addressed.

This type of event is not the place to "push" drivers to higher limits. I don't know if this was the case in the incident in question (I heard rumors to that effect). I do know that none of the instructors pushed me (they didn't have to - I was passing cars right and left), but my session was after the accident so they were probably a little on edge.

Although I have sympathy for the instructor, he had to be aware of the risks going in and the possible consequences of an accident, including death. I would assume that he signed some form of waiver or agreement as part of his contract with Skip Barber and that he had some form of insurance. If not, then he assumed a huge risk on his own shoulders and maybe should not have been in that car. I am sure the driver feels devastated by this whole chain of events and he has my sympathy and support as well. What a mess!

Bob K

 

[GTS Jeff]

"This was NOT a VCA event"

what type of event was it then?

"Even if it was, it is my recollection that the VCA policy does not cover on-track activities"

They do offer coverage if you notify them ahead of time


" The VCA enjoys the security of 1,000,000 event liability protection.
This is coverage for our non-speed events (such as business meetings, social functions, concours, tours, parades and caravans).
Competitive events, such as autocross, gymkhanas or rallies require pre-notification to K & K. To place this type of coverage into effect ( to receive proof of insurance), simply return a Competitive Event Insurance Order Form B to K & K at least 24 hours before the event.

 

[Camfab]

Knowing none of the realities of this case other than the obvious, here's what I believe.

1) Instuctors are fully aware of all the risks.
2) This is America, no one put a gun to your head to be an instructor.
3) Take responsibillity for your actions or inactions.

I saw a picture of the car that night on someones camera while I was talking to Herb Helbig, looked like heavy frontal damage.

In my mind, unless the driver was aggresively non compliant to the instructors commands, it's equally the instructors fault. Why do people believe that they deserve money for their own decisions, this is the most ridiculous concept I have ever heard. If your wife is pregnant and you have responsibilities, maybe you should look elsewhere for work. I do feel bad for the instructor and his family, as well as the Viper owner. I just feel it's about time people stop blaming others for their own mistakes.

This guy should get accidental coverage for his medical costs, lost wages, and some re-training costs if necessary, end of story.

All the assumptions aside, I hope this guy recovers quickly for himself and his family.

I can't overstate how great this event was. I hope that Daimler/Chrysler does not sour over this one incident.

 

[knuk]

So, all the legal crap aside....how is the instructor??

 

[slaughterj]

First of all, I think it takes ba11s to be an instructor for such an event and I would never do it. If I did I would want to know the experience of the driver whose car I was about to ride in. During my track session at VOI9 I had 4 different instructors and not one asked me what my track experience was. Additionally, none of the cars had a tech inspection so the issue of tire age, brake fluid, etc. was never addressed.

This type of event is not the place to "push" drivers to higher limits. I don't know if this was the case in the incident in question (I heard rumors to that effect). I do know that none of the instructors pushed me (they didn't have to - I was passing cars right and left), but my session was after the accident so they were probably a little on edge.

Although I have sympathy for the instructor, he had to be aware of the risks going in and the possible consequences of an accident, including death. I would assume that he signed some form of waiver or agreement as part of his contract with Skip Barber and that he had some form of insurance. If not, then he assumed a huge risk on his own shoulders and maybe should not have been in that car. I am sure the driver feels devastated by this whole chain of events and he has my sympathy and support as well. What a mess!

Bob K

This is why when I am at VOI on the track, I drive very conservatively and just enjoy a few casual laps on the track, not being concerned with speed, people getting waved by etc., because I do not want the instructor to have a moment's concern that would be easy to have in such a situation. Further, this avoids situations like the instructor pulling the E-brake and messing you up, not to mention the car (though I prefer driving Dodge's cars at VOI ).

 

[Bad_Byte]

A brief story about an incident I witnessed first hand while serving in the Marines.

I had formed a very close nit shop of technicians. We worked together, fought together, partied together and shared a lot of good and bad times together. In short we had formed a bond like a group of people willing to fight and die togheter should be able to do. There was not a single drop of bad blood between us. We had the tightest group of people in the entire MAG in my opinion.

One night while celebrating the weekend, (as Marines are required to do) 4 of them got into a pretty bad car accident. They went to the hospital and one or two spent some days in intensive care. Once they got out and got back to work all was well and they were still buddies. No bad blood between them, they all realized it was an accident and they were all contributing factors in the accident.

Still, one of the young man's lawyers sued the other. Neither wanted the suit to happen it was simply the legal system doing its thing. If there is a dime to be made there will be a blood sucking, ambulance chasing lawyer there to take it.

I know there are lawyers on this board and I know there are good lawyers out there, they are necessary evils of our society. I just haven't found even one yet.

 

[big-n-italian]

"The instructor's attorney has told my ins co that he intends to sue me beyond the policy limits. Hinting around $500,000 pain & suffering. His medical bills are purportably close to $100,000. He will be suing the race track, SRT, Barber & maybe the club."

i am not an attorney, but what a crock. if the instructor worked for Barber, why wouldnt the money come from Barbers ins?

nobody else is liable IMO. it was an accident, and the instructor knows there are risks when he enters any car whether it be on the street or the track.

 

[Cobraken]

This accident is a nightmare of such proportions that it will be part of me for the rest of my life. I want folks to know that I am not blaming Jeff for this potential suit. He has been hurt & I am sure he is exploring all the avenues available to recover financially. Nothing will remove his hurt. My attorneys are saying that if sued we will defend & probably counter sue. Part of our culture today.

Beyond that, I did have some insurance to be covered on the track (just not enough apparently). How many of the of you are not? The risk is too great. I knew there would be a risk but did not dream that it could come to this.

I hope that this will not be the end to track time @ VOI's. I would hate to be associated w/ the ending of a normally fun & great oppurtunity for us to drive our cars.

 

[06red/whitecoupe]

i agree with the thoughts of Janni and i have some humble opinions myself. I was on track on wed of VOI so did not see the accident nor the car. I have run a half dozen viper day events and in the past have held an SCCA competition license; i had not attended a VOI event before although i am on my third viper since 1998. I was somewhat surprised that there was really no tech inspection of any kind; I did the best i could , i did have a tire gauge and thought my brake fluid was ok since the car is 10 months old. I ran three 3 lap cycles with 3 diff instructors; the instruction wasn't much and i thought the third instructor was really on edge. My view is that putting someone out on an oval and a road course having never been on track and NO tech of any kind is trouble waiting to happen. If the information is correct that i received as to where the accident occured, then i can only conclude that this driver made some very poor decisions. We are talking about a car with 500 horsepower and anyone can get over their head , myself included. The Viper day folks treat first timers diff than someone with experiance, I would suggest VOI do the same.

 

[JonB]

"This was NOT a VCA event" .....what type of event was it then?

"Even if it was, it is my recollection that the VCA policy does not cover on-track activities" ...They do offer coverage if you notify them ahead of time.......

It was NOT a VCA event, it was a Viper Owners Invitational.
The VCA was not the host. I think if you ponder this for 10 seconds you will understand whose event it was.

Not being a VCA event, why would VCA insure it? The VCA coverage, like I thought and as you confirmed above, does not cover speed / track events.

If you think further, I bet you can understand who had an event insurance policy AS REQUIRED BY THE SPEEDWAY. In any case, the attorneys will soon "DISCOVER" all......

Be Safe Out There. Get Well Jeff.

 

[Leslie]

my thoughts and prayers go out to those injured and involved in this awful accident.

I think that's what the focus should be

 

[KepRght]

so what does this mean?

when someone offers to be your instructor, you say NO?

when someone forces you to have an instructor for safety, you say NO?

or you say NO, not unless you fill out & sign this waver releasing my driving skills and my cars shape of all liability?

if you go with this backwards logic, the driver should sue the instructor for bad instruction.

this kind of bs makes my blood boil.

don't go near a race track unless your ok with being injured or <u>dead</u>. its a track. accidents happen. people get hurt, and people die on the track. if you need a job where you wont get hurt, don't work at a race track. and don't work as an 'instructor of new drivers' for gods sake. no one forced you to take a job at the track. I'm sure you wanted to work at the track because you love fast cars. Being injured is one of the many side effects of working and enjoying fast cars. shame on you. im sorry the vca sent you donations.

 

[MoparMan]

Janni,
I've been mulling over your post for a few days now and I agree with everything you wrote. Currently, Our region is deciding whether or not to donate anything to the instructor. Our president is pushing those of us on the board to agree to a donation, but thus far myself (I'm the V.P.) and our secretary agree that we should not donate to this guy. Our president keeps us in the dark on just about everything he hears from national so could you please elaborate on what you meant when you said the donations were mildly extorted from the regions?

 

[RAYSIR]

I keep hearing of the "waivers" everyone signed. These waivers are as flimsy as the paper they are written. I used to get the waivers signed before taking friends in my airplanes. After talking to my attorney he just laughed. It does nothing to keep his wife,mother, sis or any body else from sueing for the grief you caused them. This is what or tort system has become. Also, I don't understand the relationship of Jeff to Barber driving. If he was an employee it would seem work comp would be taking care of it. But then that only protects the employer from lawsuit. I feel for all involved and sure hope all will be Okay.

 

[Randy]

Our region is deciding whether or not to donate anything to the instructor. Our president is pushing those of us on the board to agree to a donation, but thus far myself (I'm the V.P.) and our secretary agree that we should not donate to this guy. Our president keeps us in the dark on just about everything he hears from national so could you please elaborate on what you meant when you said the donations were mildly extorted from the regions?

I've seen some of the email threads concerning a possible donation from the regions, and I'm surprised by a perception of pressure to donate; either I've missed that email, or perception differs. To my knowledge, someone, I think it was Maurice (our president) simply put out a message to the region presidents suggesting monetary help, and many agreed, and one of the national officers was coordinating it. I've detected no pressure for the regions to donate, at least from the email I saw.

However, I believe any VCA donation would be put on hold until any potential litigation has resolved itself. The chief Skip Barber instructor sent an email saying there was no litigation currently being pursued against Skip Barber or the VCA (well, he wrote "VSA"; I would hope that was just a typo) by the injured instructor; but that notably did not discount possible litigation against the driver and/or the track. And, that could always change, too.

So, even if someone was perceiving pressure before, I doubt there would even be any possible feeling of pressure to donate at this time, since the potential issue of litigation was brought up.

 

[Warfang]

I wonder if this is one of the contributing factors to Barber dumping Dodge vehicles in their classes?

 

[MoparMan]

I would guess that decision was made well before VOI.

 

[Warfang]

I would guess that decision was made well before VOI.

I think so too, but there was some talk about possibly salvaging the relationship or even continue on a limited bases (Vipers only). This incident probably didn't help if that's the case.

 

[big-n-italian]

&lt;&lt; However, I believe any VCA donation would be put on hold until any potential litigation has resolved itself. &gt;&gt;

i think this is a great idea. i would hate to see any VCA donations help fund a lawsuit against the VCA.

 

[JonB]

&lt;&lt; However, I believe any VCA donation would be put on hold until any potential litigation has resolved itself. &gt;&gt;

i think this is a great idea. i would hate to see any VCA donations help fund a lawsuit against the VCA.

I have it on good authority that pending donations are currently being held, patiently. If you were a donor, and have questions, contact the person to whom you sent your check. If you dropped cash into a bin at VOI, some answer could come out after the VCA prez meeting. Or not.

 

[pdmracing]

I keep hearing of the "waivers" everyone signed. These waivers are as flimsy as the paper they are written. I used to get the waivers signed before taking friends in my airplanes. After talking to my attorney he just laughed. It does nothing to keep his wife,mother, sis or any body else from sueing for the grief you caused them. This is what or tort system has become. Also, I don't understand the relationship of Jeff to Barber driving. If he was an employee it would seem work comp would be taking care of it. But then that only protects the employer from lawsuit. I feel for all involved and sure hope all will be Okay.

The waiver you sign when entering any racetrack for driving purposes is so you will be COVERED by the insurance. The waiver you sign covers all that are at the event &amp; taking the Zone rendevouse @ road atlanta for an example a 5 million dollar coverage was in place. This coverage was provided by the Panoz school that we hired as instructors &amp; covered all particpants &amp; spectators who signed the waiver. Most policies include catostrophic medical provisions as well as any accidental death or dismembership.This applies to spectators too. By not signing the waiver you are not covered. Scca has simular coverage &amp; I know people who have had the insurance pay 100% of any injury they suffered at the track.

I am sure coverage was in place &amp; I would think the driver has absolutely no responsibility under any circumstances to have his own insurance cover the med costs of the instructor, supposed it was a track only car without med coverage? How would it be covered then? The last time I did a track event in a street car, noone asked me to provide proof of medical coverage or liability insurance.Nevermind the horrible precident of suing a driver on a race track. there are risks involved when anyone enters a track &amp; especially when instructing.

 

[JonB]

..... I am sure coverage was in place &amp; I would think the driver has absolutely no responsibility under any circumstances to have his own insurance cover the med costs of the instructor, supposed it was a track only car without med coverage? How would it be covered then? The last time I did a track event in a street car, noone asked me to provide proof of medical coverage or liability insurance.Nevermind the horrible precident of suing a driver on a race track. there are risks involved when anyone enters a track &amp; especially when instructing.

Well, you thought partly correct. No disrespect, but the liability policy undoubtedly in place is most likley a SECONDARY insurance, while the driver / owner, who cooperated fully in the process, furnished his auto policy as PRIMARY coverage. This covers the instructor's (passenger) medical and lost wages.

It is NOT a precedent, either. At Infineon this year, the widow is suing EVERYONE after a Ferrari track event / fatality killed a passenger. Even the worker who released-waved the cars out on track is getting sued.

And, injuries happened here at a VCA event in Pac-NW a few years ago. Allstate paid the instructor's ambulance, medical bills and lost wages. [due in large part to the fact that ALL DRIVERS SIGNED IN AS "STUDENT" on our waiver form. ALWAYS, Always DO THIS. All Instructors should -Always- sign in as "INSTRUCTOR" even if no line exists for 'duties'. ] If there is a dispute, the signature clearly shows your INTENT.

At VOI-6, none other than Mr. Skip Barber himself asked me how we handled that claim! Fortunately, that instructor was not as litigious, nor were his injuries as severe.

In the case of the SCCA insurance, it is PRIMARY coverage for workers and designated CREW members WHO ARE SCCA MEMBERS.

THERE ARE SOME LESSONS TO BE LEARNED HERE, FOR EVERYONE WHO EVER PLANS TO DRIVE, OR INSTRUCT ON A RACE TRACK.....

P.P.S. If you are a DIRECTOR AT LARGE as your AVTAR shows, please consider adding your name to your profile and signature? THANKS !

 

[pdmracing]

[quote}Well, you thought partly correct. No disrespect, but the liability policy undoubtedly in place is most likley a SECONDARY insurance, while the driver / owner, who cooperated fully in the process, furnished his auto policy as PRIMARY coverage. This covers the instructor's (passenger) medical and lost wages.

It is NOT a precedent, either. At Infineon this year, the widow is suing EVERYONE after a Ferrari track event / fatality killed a passenger. Even the worker who released-waved the cars out on track is getting sued.[quote}



FYI I was a safety officer for many years with another club &amp; I have to disagree with the secondary insurance &amp; scca insurance.If it were me , there is no way I would use my own insurance unless forced to. This was an on track event, with paid instructors &amp; an expectation that they knew the risks involved. Again Lets use premis that its a track only car, not registered &amp; with no insurance of any kind, unless insurance is specificly required by the sanctioning body at time of registration(many clubs do), the assumption that the participant is liable is not automatic.

SCCA indeed does cover participants, members &amp; non members alike,as well as spectators, sponsors ,vendors &amp; whoever else is there &amp; signs the waiver It even provides for up to $5 million for participant liability, I would guess to help in situations like this. For spectators &amp; non drivers see this link;

http://www.scca.org/Inside/Index.asp?IdS=0D9758-5FA7FB0&amp;x=080|025|000&amp;~=

members &amp; crew
http://www.scca.org/Inside/Index.asp?IdS=0D9758-5FA7FB0&amp;x=080|025|020&amp;~=

For a more in depth read: http://www.scca.org/Inside/Index.asp?IdS=0D9758-5FA7FB0&amp;x=080|025&amp;~=

The FCA Porsche incident you speak about is indeed an ongoing case, I may be wrong, but I dont think there has been sucessful litigation YET in an on track debacle. Could you imagine one driver suing another for wrecking them? We had a guy try to sue our PCA region because we let him go out on 2 different brand of tires &amp; he ended up totaling his new turbo. So indeed anything is possible.

The message is clear, know what you are getting into &amp; it pays to take the time to look into what coverage is available to you &amp; decide accordingly.

 

[JonB]

........Again Lets use premis that its a track only car, not registered &amp; with no insurance of any kind, unless insurance is specificly required by the sanctioning body at time of registration(many clubs do), the assumption that the participant is liable is not automatic........ The message is clear, know what you are getting into &amp; it pays to take the time to look into what coverage is available to you &amp; decide accordingly.

However, that premise is an apples-watermelons comparison, because that AIN'T what happened at VOI-9. And as I stated, the VCA/VOI driver "cooperated fully" with providing his insurance as primary coverage. (That's why he pays for it.) I suspect he could have clammed up and forced a subrogation battle. But he admitted taking the compassionate approach, and HE'S A NICE GUY! His reward? A lawsuit. And his insurance was canceled. And re-read his earlier posts.

Our semi-anonymous message IS clear tho..........I think we agree !