If A Paddle Shifting Transmission Was Available In 2009, Anyone Buying One?

[jcaspar1]

In my opinion, it would be a shame if the Viper ever comes with a automatic transmission, whether a paddle shifter or column shifter. The manual shifter is one of the things that makes it a Viper. Please Dodge, don't turn it into just a Ferrari or Corvette with a different body!

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

What a surprise, the same two people arguing about purism vs the voice of the people. I would have never expected that.

"Two vs the voice of the people?" You need to go back and re-read some posts. You're outnumbered, not us.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

That being said, having the option for TC would be a nice feature to have. How many accidents could be avoided with it on the road?

Zero. In fact, there would probably be MORE sports car accidents when/if TC becomes mandatory in 2012. TC is a placebo for people who think all they need to do is put the foot to the pedal and go. And then will come the excuses, "TC failed", "I thought the TC was off", "I thought the TC was on", "I thought TC would keep it from doing that" - I actually heard that last one after a spinout at Sebring. Thank God he learned the limits of TC at a race track and not on public roads.

TC needs to be on SUVs, minivans and sedans. Not on sports cars.

 

[mike & juli]

Zero. In fact, there would probably be MORE sports car accidents when/if TC becomes mandatory in 2012. TC is a placebo for people who think all they need to do is put the foot to the pedal and go. And then will come the excuses, "TC failed", "I thought the TC was off", "I thought the TC was on", "I thought TC would keep it from doing that" - I actually heard that last one after a spinout at Sebring. Thank God he learned the limits of TC at a race track and not on public roads.
TC needs to be on SUVs, minivans and sedans. Not on sports cars.

I personally HATE traction control...having lived in the snowbelt region my whole life, I can tell you that traction control is ONLY GOOD for rainy, icy roads...NOT thru snow for one thing....not to even mention daily driving. I turn my traction control that came mandatory in my daily driver OFFFFFFFFF....I despise it....it is NOT helpful at all. JUST my own experience with it.
~juli

 

[Warfang]

All this effort should go into demanding that Chrysler go forward with the Firepower. That makes a whole lot more sense than to dilute an already established brand.

 

[mike & juli]

All this effort should go into demanding that Chrysler go forward with the Firepower. That makes a whole lot more sense than to dilute an already established brand.

I would personally love to see the Firepower produced!~~~juli

 

[SylvanSRT]

i am not interested for myself and would not pay the premium option price! for the lambo/ferrari/maserati the option 1s a big buck !!!

 

[ViperTony]

Zero. In fact, there would probably be MORE sports car accidents when/if TC becomes mandatory in 2012. TC is a placebo for people who think all they need to do is put the foot to the pedal and go. And then will come the excuses, "TC failed", "I thought the TC was off", "I thought the TC was on", "I thought TC would keep it from doing that" - I actually heard that last one after a spinout at Sebring. Thank God he learned the limits of TC at a race track and not on public roads.

TC needs to be on SUVs, minivans and sedans. Not on sports cars.

I have TC on my 530i and thought it was helping me until I began driving the Viper. After learning how to drive the Viper without nanny-tech I keep the TC turned off on my 530i. I hate it and despite the fact that its "Off" its still working to a degree. I feel that TC limits my abilities as a driver.

 

[SylvanSRT]

most t/c systems are not 100% defeatable and will still kick in when certian conditions occur i am pretty sure that the case in Porsche(PSM), Mercedes, and on the Vette

 

[rmani]

I have TC on my 530i and thought it was helping me until I began driving the Viper. After learning how to drive the Viper without nanny-tech I keep the TC turned off on my 530i. I hate it and despite the fact that its "Off" its still working to a degree. I feel that TC limits my abilities as a driver.

You can completely disable the DSC on your 530 is you hold the button down. That turns off both the dsc AND the TC. If you just push the button once it only disables the DSC. Try this and you won't be annoyed by the driver aides.

 

[DodgeViper01]

i am not interested for myself and would not pay the premium option price! for the lambo/ferrari/maserati the option 1s a big buck !!!

I am interested as well to know the price of this option. With Lamborghini and Ferrari the option is $10,000.

 

[bluestreak]

"Two vs the voice of the people?" You need to go back and re-read some posts. You're outnumbered, not us.

I have been keeping up, there are lots of people posting here that would like a paddle shift, TC or both, but the same two people insulting everyone that says it. It's all good though, you are fightinga losing battle so arguing isnt going to solve anything.

Cya

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I have been keeping up, there are lots of people posting here that would like a paddle shift, TC or both, but the same two people insulting everyone that says it. It's all good though, you are fightinga losing battle so arguing isnt going to solve anything.

Cya

LOL If you think anybody is insulting anyone in this thread you best not ever visit the alley.

 

[Warfang]

I have been keeping up, there are lots of people posting here that would like a paddle shift, TC or both, but the same two people insulting everyone that says it. It's all good though, you are fightinga losing battle so arguing isnt going to solve anything.

Cya

If you've been keeping count... you only got 2? That explains A LOT.

 

[dave6666]

NoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo more.

 

[mike & juli]

NoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo more.

Why not, it increases your post count...oh yeah, it does MINE too!~! hahaha...you'll NEVER catch up now!!! ~juli

 

[Warfang]

NoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo more.

Smartest post on this threat yet.

 

[mike & juli]

Smartest post on this threat yet.

ooooo, now we're into threats, are we?? (thread...I know! )
Okay, we'll drop it...truce...juli

 

[Disturbed]

Paddle shifters are for guys who can't shift. The Euro Fruits(Ferrari, BMW ect), with limp wrists, can keep them.

 

[Warfang]

ooooo, now we're into threats, are we?? (thread...I know! )
Okay, we'll drop it...truce...juli

nonono... I meant "threaT"

 

[mike & juli]

nonono... I meant "threaT"

Nah, ya didn't!!! Okay, think we've about killed the subject for good now. Paddle shifting can be put aside...I will try it out one day...satisfy my curiosity...but no, not in a Viper!!! ~juli

 

[Warfang]

Nah, ya didn't!!! Okay, think we've about killed the subject for good now. Paddle shifting can be put aside...I will try it out one day...satisfy my curiosity...but no, not in a Viper!!! ~juli

Something about reminds me of prom night... aaaah, the memories.

 

[mike & juli]

Something about reminds me of prom night... aaaah, the memories.

Not even gonna go there...enjoy your Viper drive today in the RAIN...NO flogging! ~juli

 

[bluestreak]

Paddle shifters are for guys who can't shift. The Euro Fruits(Ferrari, BMW ect), with limp wrists, can keep them.

I can live with that but TC is for people who arent pros driving 600 hp cars and that pretty much sums up 99% of viper owners. I would not like to see paddles (not for myself), but would like to see TC (not for me either, unless I'm chillin, as long as it can be turned off, I'm good)

 

[Viper X]

Yep,

I'd like to have a Viper with paddle shifters.

Dan

 

[Vipermann]

Someone please kill this thread ... no paddle shifters, they don't exist, there are no plans to offer them on a Viper, so why talk about them

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Corvette - looks like a Viper, is fast like a Viper, comes with paddles and nanny tech and the ride of a Cadillac. Enjoy.

 

[Vypr Phil]

Most interesting thread, with a lot of passion on both sides of the argument.

From my perspective, I do not see any right or wrong answer here, the greater issue is for Dodge to produce a vehicle that is commercially viable. With the news today about the Conner Avenue Assembly plant’s limited future: http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=607220, I would prefer to see a Viper with more options lending a bit more convenience to the average buyer (not that any of us are average, but this is another issue and could be a fascinating thread in its own right). This way, people could customize the car to their liking and IMHO I think this would be much better then no Viper production at all. Remember that they built it to appeal to the “******** Viper Owner” but did not sell enough of them, leading to a one year (2007) production hiatus. Not Good! Even worse, there are still quite a number of unsold 05 & 06 out there (I counted about 10 in the greater Los Angeles area alone last week-end). Guess many folks turned their back on the Viper and went the ZO6 route instead. Just a fact, don’t tell me in anger now to go join “that crowd” as I have absolutely no intention to purchase a “Crap-Au-Lait-Z0-Whatever”.

Technology will inexorably move forward. Those who do not want to go with the times will be left behind. I am sure that in the early days of aviation, there were plenty of folks who would only fly an “aeroplane” built of out wood and fabric, because to them this was the only way to experience “the visceral thrill of flying”. Well technology has moved forward at such a steady rate that less than a century after the first flight by the Wright brothers, we are orbiting the planet in a space shuttle for about twenty years.

I also believe that a lot of us out there may not quite understand the fundamental differences between the many types of transmissions available on many sports cars today:

• Classic manual transmission as we enjoy in the viper with standard clutch and shift lever
• Manual transmission with electronic clutch control and electro-hydraulic actuators who effectuate the gear changes. Due to the marvel of electronic control systems, these transmissions can operate as "automatic" transmission, but not with the same smoothness, due to the lack of a torque converter. These transmissions offer very rapid shifts, but often lack smoothness. This is the system used by Ferrari's known as the F1 transmission. Occasionally, these transmission are referred to as “semi-automatics”
• And now, my favorite: twin-clutch gearbox, undoubtedly a revolutionary technology for manual transmission. Its impact to the automotive world is even greater than automated manual gearbox such Ferrari F1 system. Twin-clutch gearbox was first put into production by BorgWarner, which calls it "DualTronic". It was first used in Audi TT 3.2 in the name "DSG" (Direct-Shift Gearbox). So, what’s the difference between it and other automated manual gearbox? Unlike conventional gearboxes, DualTronic uses 2 clutches - one clutch connects to the odd gears (1st, 3rd and 5th) while another clutch connects to even gears (2nd, 4th and 6th). This enable it to shift far smoother and faster than conventional gearbox. Why? let us see how a conventional gearbox work first: when a driver wants to change from one gear to another, he presses down the clutch pedal, thus the engine is disconnected from the gearbox. During this period, no power is transmitted to the gearbox, thus the driver can shift gears. When it is done, he engage the clutch again, then power is again transmitted to the gearbox. As you can see, the power delivery change from ON to OFF to ON during gearshift. How smooth the change depends on how skillful the driver cooperate the clutch and throttle. Automated gearbox like Ferrari F1 is similar. The only difference is that the clutch and gearshift are operated by computer via hydraulic actuators. The ON-OFF-ON power delivery still exist. In contrast, an automatic transmission with torque converter does not has this problem. Twin-clutch gearbox can overcome the ON-OFF-ON problem too, thanks to the twin-clutch design which enable it to "pre-select" the next gear. Take this example: assuming the car is accelerating at 2nd. The clutch controlling the even gears is now engaged while another clutch is disengaged. From the data taken at throttle position and rev counter, the computer knows that the driver will select 3rd soon, thus it will connect the 3rd gear. Because at this moment the clutch for odd gears is disengaged, the pre-selection of 3rd will not affect the 2nd gear currently running. When the driver touches the gear-shift paddle, computer signals the even-gear clutch to disengage and simultaneously the odd-gear clutch to engage. In this way, gear is changed from 2nd to 3rd instantaneously, without any OFF period, without any delay - the only delay is caused by the smooth disengagement and engagement of the two clutches. Therefore power delivery is smooth and uninterrupted. Pre-selection of gears quicken the shift a lot. Upshift takes just 8ms, 10 times quicker than BMW SMG II which is the fastest automated manual gearbox currently available.
• Then there are the automatic transmissions, with torque converters. Today, many people are confused about "manumatic" transmissions with paddles "simulating" gear changes. These are automatic transmissions with torque converters, but with "paddle controls" to fool you into believing otherwise.

OK then, I guess this was a bit more than my usual “$0.02”, not meant to offend or polarize but to present an open-minded alternate perspective.

Phil

 

[Warfang]

Most interesting thread, with a lot of passion on both sides of the argument.

From my perspective, I do not see any right or wrong answer here, the greater issue is for Dodge to produce a vehicle that is commercially viable. With the news today about the Conner Avenue Assembly plant’s limited future: http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=607220, I would prefer to see a Viper with more options lending a bit more convenience to the average buyer (not that any of us are average, but this is another issue and could be a fascinating thread in its own right). This way, people could customize the car to their liking and IMHO I think this would be much better then no Viper production at all. Remember that they built it to appeal to the “******** Viper Owner” but did not sell enough of them, leading to a one year (2007) production hiatus. Not Good! Even worse, there are still quite a number of unsold 05 & 06 out there (I counted about 10 in the greater Los Angeles area alone last week-end). Guess many folks turned their back on the Viper and went the ZO6 route instead. Just a fact, don’t tell me in anger now to go join “that crowd” as I have absolutely no intention to purchase a “Crap-Au-Lait-Z0-Whatever”.

Technology will inexorably move forward. Those who do not want to go with the times will be left behind. I am sure that in the early days of aviation, there were plenty of folks who would only fly an “aeroplane” built of out wood and fabric, because to them this was the only way to experience “the visceral thrill of flying”. Well technology has moved forward at such a steady rate that less than a century after the first flight by the Wright brothers, we are orbiting the planet in a space shuttle for about twenty years.

I also believe that a lot of us out there may not quite understand the fundamental differences between the many types of transmissions available on many sports cars today:

• Classic manual transmission as we enjoy in the viper with standard clutch and shift lever
• Manual transmission with electronic clutch control and electro-hydraulic actuators who effectuate the gear changes. Due to the marvel of electronic control systems, these transmissions can operate as "automatic" transmission, but not with the same smoothness, due to the lack of a torque converter. These transmissions offer very rapid shifts, but often lack smoothness. This is the system used by Ferrari's known as the F1 transmission. Occasionally, these transmission are referred to as “semi-automatics”
• And now, my favorite: twin-clutch gearbox, undoubtedly a revolutionary technology for manual transmission. Its impact to the automotive world is even greater than automated manual gearbox such Ferrari F1 system. Twin-clutch gearbox was first put into production by BorgWarner, which calls it "DualTronic". It was first used in Audi TT 3.2 in the name "DSG" (Direct-Shift Gearbox). So, what’s the difference between it and other automated manual gearbox? Unlike conventional gearboxes, DualTronic uses 2 clutches - one clutch connects to the odd gears (1st, 3rd and 5th) while another clutch connects to even gears (2nd, 4th and 6th). This enable it to shift far smoother and faster than conventional gearbox. Why? let us see how a conventional gearbox work first: when a driver wants to change from one gear to another, he presses down the clutch pedal, thus the engine is disconnected from the gearbox. During this period, no power is transmitted to the gearbox, thus the driver can shift gears. When it is done, he engage the clutch again, then power is again transmitted to the gearbox. As you can see, the power delivery change from ON to OFF to ON during gearshift. How smooth the change depends on how skillful the driver cooperate the clutch and throttle. Automated gearbox like Ferrari F1 is similar. The only difference is that the clutch and gearshift are operated by computer via hydraulic actuators. The ON-OFF-ON power delivery still exist. In contrast, an automatic transmission with torque converter does not has this problem. Twin-clutch gearbox can overcome the ON-OFF-ON problem too, thanks to the twin-clutch design which enable it to "pre-select" the next gear. Take this example: assuming the car is accelerating at 2nd. The clutch controlling the even gears is now engaged while another clutch is disengaged. From the data taken at throttle position and rev counter, the computer knows that the driver will select 3rd soon, thus it will connect the 3rd gear. Because at this moment the clutch for odd gears is disengaged, the pre-selection of 3rd will not affect the 2nd gear currently running. When the driver touches the gear-shift paddle, computer signals the even-gear clutch to disengage and simultaneously the odd-gear clutch to engage. In this way, gear is changed from 2nd to 3rd instantaneously, without any OFF period, without any delay - the only delay is caused by the smooth disengagement and engagement of the two clutches. Therefore power delivery is smooth and uninterrupted. Pre-selection of gears quicken the shift a lot. Upshift takes just 8ms, 10 times quicker than BMW SMG II which is the fastest automated manual gearbox currently available.
• Then there are the automatic transmissions, with torque converters. Today, many people are confused about "manumatic" transmissions with paddles "simulating" gear changes. These are automatic transmissions with torque converters, but with "paddle controls" to fool you into believing otherwise.

OK then, I guess this was a bit more than my usual “$0.02”, not meant to offend or polarize but to present an open-minded alternate perspective.

Phil

You lost me at "I would prefer to see a Viper with more options lending a bit more convenience to the average buyer"

I'd rather see them burn the plant down than build a Viper that's watered down. Or just build some other sportscar and call it something else. The Firepower and ME412 are more of what the whiners want.

 

[Vypr Phil]

You're going to demand a company dilute a carefully crafted brand to suit your curiosity or an inferiority complex due to lack of pointless tech? This is the epitome of being out of touch with reality. Will a ferarri come as a hybrid? Will Bugatti make an under $30k 4-seater v6 version of the Veyron in a jetta frame and only 1 SC? Will the Corvette come in a slower version? (Oh wait... they do).
Buy a car that suits your needs. The day Dodge has a Viper with 4 cylinders and TC and paddles... I won't be buying. I'm sure some of you will jump at the chance. And that's ok. There are other cars that fit the bill.

Warfang, two interesting facts for you:

Yes, Bugatti is toying with the idea of an entry-level model:

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/Themen-Erlkoenige-Ein-Bugatti-fuer-50.000-Euro_55359.html

And Ferrari is testing some hybrid technology, not surprising as F1 will require regenerative braking starting in 2010 I believe.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/209228/hybrid_ferrari_blasts_off.html

Warfang, I would not buy a 4 cylinder Viper either, but if they came out with a V6 Twin-Turbo Viper, 500 bhp, twin-clutch transmission and a thousand pounds lighter than the present car, yes I sure would buy one. Once in a while, you just have to re-invent yourself (works for Madonna, doesn't it?).

I'd rather see them burn the plant down than build a Viper that's watered down. Or just build some other sportscar and call it something else. The Firepower and ME412 are more of what the whiners want.

This comment is selfish and immature. What about the many businesses who faithfully support the Viper community, such as DC Performance, Partsrack and so many others? Should they then also burn their places down too out of solidarity with your point of view?

Warfang, why do you make me think that you must be the penultimate technophobe? I guess a basic Cobra kit car with Viper V10 power would be the ultimate thrill for you, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Phil