Best Pistons and Rods...

I'm in the market for some new rods and pistons for my s/c '05 SRT. What brand/type would you guys recommend or think is the best?

Thanks...

Hands down Carrillo and CP, though not cheap by any means. Other manufacturer's products look good... until you sit them next to some of these bad boys.

https://www.viperspecialtyperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=63

CP pistons and oliver rods here

stay away from diamond pistons im told by tator

Carrillo Rods and Pistons here...... They really cost a fortune, but are worth it..

Joe

We use Manley rods and CP pistons!

i was told the weights on the manleys varied too much,. so i stayed away from them.

When it comes to Pistons, it is pretty much accepted that CP has claimed the crown. JE, Ross, Wiseco follow a close second/third, and I am honestly not impressed with Diamond.

For Rods, there are certainly some good "Budget" rods out there. Eagle, Compstar, and Manley for example, though Manley makes both Budget and Mid-Tier rods. In this Mid-Tier also falls Carrillo A-Beams, and Oliver rods, with Oliver being a Mid/High tier rod depending on configuration. Carrillo H-Beam rods fall squarely in the top tier in any configuration, with "top of the top" tier configurations available, and which is what we use. To add to the complication, there are even different versions (more like "option levels") of the particular rod types. We can spec something "downgraded" for you if you would like, but our standard setup is as good as it gets, in every respect.

The one thing to keep in mind is that a name is just that- a name. Just because you are getting CP, or Carrillo, or Oliver does NOT automatically mean you got the best- they all make stripped down versions of their components, and even stripped down sub-versions of a particular rod/piston. This is why "shopping" a tuner is not a good idea- IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! These components are almost all custom made, there is no "Viper" part number from most of these manufacturers to actually get a relevent price comparison. For example, I can GUARANTEE that no one else sells exactly the same CP and Carrillo rods that we do. If they claim to- they are full of it. We designed our components, and they are ONLY sold to us, just like every other tuner who deals in custom components. What we can gaurantee however, is that there are no cut corners with our parts, there are no ways to make them "better" or even "more expensive"... if they are cheaper, that means that someone stripped off some features to make them cheaper. You are not getting the same thing, in any sense of the word.

This applies to most things when it comes to these engines due to the extremely custom nature of the beast. Dont order something just because of who made it. I can certainly show you bare bones CP or JE slugs that would be second class to even a fully outfitted diamond product. If you want the best parts, done right, it costs extra. Dont go with a similarly priced higher level product becuase it has the name you want- it likely has even less going for it than its cheaper (by default) though better configured lower-leveled counterparts. There is a "good, better, best" way to configure these components, and unfortunately, many more ways to "cheap parts bin build" these components as well.

good info dan, thanx

TexasSnake said:

I'm in the market for some new rods and pistons for my s/c '05 SRT. What brand/type would you guys recommend or think is the best?

Thanks...

Click to expand...

Oliver and CP pistons, get the .180 wall wrist pin upgrade. WE have never had an issue with Oliver or CP. We use that same stuff in our 7 second 180+ mph 1/4 miles viper street cars with never any issues.

So lets say one was to install some CP pistons and oliver/manley rods... How much power can we expect the shortblock to hold in a gen2/3?

i believe the main caps are good to about 900rwhp. some have gone higher though

plumcrazy said:

i believe the main caps are good to about 900rwhp. some have gone higher though

Click to expand...

Well then to extend my question.. after main caps rods/pistons how much can a short block hold?

I guess what I'm trying to get out, besides buying a 18k+ dollar shortblock from some "well known" builder, what can a Do-it yourselfer accomplish building an engine inside his garage? I'm really thinking about putting a pair of snails on my viper next year, and would like to start pieceing together parts of my drivetrain to hold 1100rwhp+

I understand new main caps would require machine work, along with balancing out the internals, but putting the engine together I'm capable of doing.

After doing the research.. and going through a build as we speak... because of bad tunes from well known tuners...

Their is quite a bit of machining needed to be done to build the bottom end properly...

I would recommend finding a good shop to do it... Here in florida it doesn't look like too many shops have worked on vipers... Since you are in Texas.. you could definitely find a shop there..

joe

FATHERFORD said:

Well then to extend my question.. after main caps rods/pistons how much can a short block hold?

I guess what I'm trying to get out, besides buying a 18k+ dollar shortblock from some "well known" builder, what can a Do-it yourselfer accomplish building an engine inside his garage? I'm really thinking about putting a pair of snails on my viper next year, and would like to start pieceing together parts of my drivetrain to hold 1100rwhp+

I understand new main caps would require machine work, along with balancing out the internals, but putting the engine together I'm capable of doing.

Click to expand...

Answer: Assuming you built it the same way a tuner would, with the same parts, it would hold the same amount of power...?

However, the chance of using the same parts as a tuner, unless purchased from them directly, are about zero. Most tuners use Custom Parts only available to them. The "off the shelf" parts do not hold a candle to what can be designed. Also, the knowledge and design behind those parts is really only applied to a block built in-house. Buying the parts from a tuner is one thing, but asking a tuner about all the details on how they assemble their engines begins to enter an "uncomfortable zone", as it starts to cross the line on proprietary information in some cases.

You have to keep in mind how much of a "balls to the wall" shortblock build is just Parts. Parts are HUUUUGE. If you want those extra special parts that keep these engines together for the long haul, it costs, in one way or the other- and these arent the same parts you get "off the shelf" 99% of the time. After that, you have to consider the labor of a build, and all the little "details" and machining tidbits that have to be changed that the tuner working with a particular part selection knows all about, Vs. a first-timer using those components, and the hassles that can come out of it from mistakes or missed items. When you start mixing components from a dozen manufacturers, things get VERY complicated in a hurry. "OEM Copy" parts are generally dogs when it comes to efficiency, and all the little tricks that go with custom parts you have to *know* about when planning the build for them to fit/work- they wont be part of the instruction manual.

Throwing a set of forged pistons and rods from off the shelf into an engine isnt that hard. Even adding main caps isnt that bad if you can get the machining done right. (and that easier said than done). But what about the cam and timing set, the tools needed to degree it, the tools needed to remove/install the cam sprocket, the machining to make the scraper functional again, clearancing, machining for oil pickup, tools for checking the block, torque wrenches, dial bore gauges, good ring filer and squaring tool, etc, etc... the list goes on.

Building a 1000 horsepower Viper engine isnt too hard, and doesnt require top-shelf parts pulling out all the stops. Creep up into the 1500+ range, and it certainly does for any type of longevity.

Can you built it yourself? Sure. But when it comes down to it.... is it worth it?

JEs and Olivers here along with upgraded main caps, +++.

Went from 3rd to 2nd at the drags one day last year. Not sure of the rpms when the clutch came out in second at 120 mph (someone here can likely calculate this) but the engine stayed together.

Exotic Engine built it.

Good parts, machining and a good builder are required for higher hp applications.

Dan

Viper Specialty said:

Answer: Assuming you built it the same way a tuner would, with the same parts, it would hold the same amount of power...?

However, the chance of using the same parts as a tuner, unless purchased from them directly, are about zero. Most tuners use Custom Parts only available to them. The "off the shelf" parts do not hold a candle to what can be designed. Also, the knowledge and design behind those parts is really only applied to a block built in-house. Buying the parts from a tuner is one thing, but asking a tuner about all the details on how they assemble their engines begins to enter an "uncomfortable zone", as it starts to cross the line on proprietary information in some cases.

You have to keep in mind how much of a "balls to the wall" shortblock build is just Parts. Parts are HUUUUGE. If you want those extra special parts that keep these engines together for the long haul, it costs, in one way or the other- and these arent the same parts you get "off the shelf" 99% of the time. After that, you have to consider the labor of a build, and all the little "details" and machining tidbits that have to be changed that the tuner working with a particular part selection knows all about, Vs. a first-timer using those components, and the hassles that can come out of it from mistakes or missed items. When you start mixing components from a dozen manufacturers, things get VERY complicated in a hurry. "OEM Copy" parts are generally dogs when it comes to efficiency, and all the little tricks that go with custom parts you have to *know* about when planning the build for them to fit/work- they wont be part of the instruction manual.

Throwing a set of forged pistons and rods from off the shelf into an engine isnt that hard. Even adding main caps isnt that bad if you can get the machining done right. (and that easier said than done). But what about the cam and timing set, the tools needed to degree it, the tools needed to remove/install the cam sprocket, the machining to make the scraper functional again, clearancing, machining for oil pickup, tools for checking the block, torque wrenches, dial bore gauges, good ring filer and squaring tool, etc, etc... the list goes on.

Building a 1000 horsepower Viper engine isnt too hard, and doesnt require top-shelf parts pulling out all the stops. Creep up into the 1500+ range, and it certainly does for any type of longevity.

Can you built it yourself? Sure. But when it comes down to it.... is it worth it?

Click to expand...

So you are trying to tell me that only certain "viper builders" can get these "special" rods and pistons? So if I go and call up oliver and ask to buy a set of rods, they would tell me, "Sorry, we can only sell you are regular set. You have to pay a "viper" builder an extra 5k to get our good set."

Sorry.. that's not jiving with me.

If I need to buy certain tools, then I'll buy or make certain tools.

It looks to me the viper community needs to quit putting the "P*ssy on the Pedistal." I have seen these engines, I have tore them apart. There is nothing "exotic" about them. It's just a pushrod V-10. It looks no different then the dart 352, capable of holding 2000rwhp on a turbo setup, I just sold. Except it has the 2 extra cylinder bolt on...

As open as the viper comunity is about some things, it sure does try and keep owners really ignorant in some other areas. What are these viper tuners scared of? That if people know their "secrets" they won't come back?


Ok all I'm doing is ranting now... It looks like I got all the info I'm going to get openly..

Thanks

FATHERFORD said:

It looks to me the viper community needs to quit putting the "P*ssy on the Pedistal."

Click to expand...

That had me laughing for awhile....you're not a 40 year old ****** are you?

FATHERFORD said:

So you are trying to tell me that only certain "viper builders" can get these "special" rods and pistons? So if I go and call up oliver and ask to buy a set of rods, they would tell me, "Sorry, we can only sell you are regular set. You have to pay a "viper" builder an extra 5k to get our good set."

Sorry.. that's not jiving with me.

If I need to buy certain tools, then I'll buy or make certain tools.

It looks to me the viper community needs to quit putting the "P*ssy on the Pedistal." I have seen these engines, I have tore them apart. There is nothing "exotic" about them. It's just a pushrod V-10. It looks no different then the dart 352, capable of holding 2000rwhp on a turbo setup, I just sold. Except it has the 2 extra cylinder bolt on...

As open as the viper comunity is about some things, it sure does try and keep owners really ignorant in some other areas. What are these viper tuners scared of? That if people know their "secrets" they won't come back?


Ok all I'm doing is ranting now... It looks like I got all the info I'm going to get openly..

Thanks

Click to expand...

Hello again,

It seems you are misunderstanding something. The pistons & rods that we and other tuners design are OUR designs. We designed them. They will NOT sell them to you, no. If you call up CP/Carrillo and say "I would like a set of the same pistons/rods that VSP is using." They will say, "sorry- you have to call them directly." If you want a direct-replacement OEM Copy, thats fine, they can do that for you. Otherwise, prepare to go through the custom design phases, likely with multiple changes and revisions, and hope you know enough about what you are changing to get it right on the first try- and there is a big difference between "Good Enough to Work" and "Best". Doing this will likely cost you just as much as buying from a tuner if equipped the same way, without the proven design, and on your own dime if it doesnt work the way you planned it.

The "off the shelf" piston/rod price, and "Custom" Piston/Rod price are COMPLETELY different. If you change anything at all from the stock design, you enter custom territory- and prices will become much higher right off the bat. Just dont expect a "stock copy" to hold the kind of power you are talking about for very long, or be very efficient in doing so. The price gap will start closing as you customize your setup- and then you have to hope the demensions you gave them are right, or you will be doing it twice, ultimately making purchasing someone elses components look REALLY cheap.

From the ranting above, it seems like you are questioning "where" the money is going. It certainly isnt going into the tuners pocket, thats for sure. If you think we make 5K on a shortblock, you are dreaming. (And I wish I was dreaming too!) A good tuner can build or Spec you anything you want based on their knowledge of the products- If you want a "cheaper" setup- we can certainly make you one- but it wont be the same as our all-in setup, something has to give.

The comment "Sorry, we can only sell you are regular set. You have to pay a "viper" builder an extra 5k to get our good set." is a big misconception- it isnt their good set, its the tuners good set. The tuner has to pay the "Custom" part prices to have it made every time, even to sell it to you after the fact, as they arent off the shelf in any case. That is also ignoring the money, time and effort that goes into designing some really nice peices correctly to begin with.

The one big difference in comparison to your Dart you listed above is that the Viper doesnt have 395,000 different piston and rod combos available at will direct from the manufacturer- they have ONE. Period. If you want something else, its all custom baby. You can certainly try to fit off the shelf Small-Block parts in the Viper engine, but thats not something I would do to my engine.

Ironically, I just got off the phone with CP. Someone is trying to design something for a GEN-2, so they gave us a ring. Coincidence...? I dont know.