Shell's response on 15/40 Rotella in Viper-Tom?

Snipe...I think we all know what you have to offer.



Tom,X-Metal,Greg Good, Thank you all for your wealth of info!!

Gentlemen, its unfortunate that this thread has to degrade away from the technical information many have been benefiting from in this thread. Please refrain from the insults especially if you don't have anything pertinent to add to this thread. Consider this a warning.

Thanks.

ViperTony said:

Gentlemen, its unfortunate that this thread has to degrade away from the technical information many have been benefiting from in this thread. Please refrain from the insults especially if you don't have anything pertinent to add to this thread. Consider this a warning.

Thanks.

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Agree. Thanks. I started and tried my best to close. There are 5 or 6 good, helpful posts if you sift through the silliness.

Not closed yet. Tom: Browsing through my Eastwood catalog today and found the following product from them: ZddPlus - ZDDP Oil Additive for Classic Cars

These guys seem to be concentrating on older, non-roller model lifter. Interesting. Just thought I'd post this since I never heard of ZDDP until studying under Tom here for the last few years.

Info:
"After 70+ years, the EPA mandated that all domestic oil producers remove ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate) from all conventional and synthetic motor oil. If your engine was designed before 1989 the non-roller lifters require ZDDP to avoid premature deterioration. ZDDP also alters bearing and journal surface characteristics to prevent metal to metal contact. Under extreme conditions like a high performance motor, ZDDP reduces the tendency of parts to scuff or gall under heavy loads. Simply add ZDDP-Plus to every 4-5 quart oil change and your motor will be protected from metal to metal contact. Add one 4 ounce bottle to a 4-5 quart oil change modifier to eliminate and metal-to-metal contact ."

FAQ:
Can it be used in conventional and synthetic oils? YES.
Will too much hurt the motor? No, do not exceed 8 oz, 2 bottles.
Can I use it in any motor? NO, 1989 and older.
Will it work in diesel? NO, it will have no effect in a diesel motor

I'm curious about this:

"Will too much hurt the motor? No, do not exceed 8 oz, 2 bottles."

There is an upper limit for ZDDP, from reputable sources. I don't know what the actual ppm is, but I know of cases where ZDDP was increasingly added to the engine to see the effect. The engines started sticking top rings. These guys stay below 3000ppm now.

These were race engines that had tight ring side clearances, and it may not even apply to a stock Viper that has much more side clearance on the top ring.

ViperTony said:

Not closed yet. Tom: Browsing through my Eastwood catalog today and found the following product from them: ZddPlus - ZDDP Oil Additive for Classic Cars

These guys seem to be concentrating on older, non-roller model lifter. Interesting. Just thought I'd post this since I never heard of ZDDP until studying under Tom here for the last few years.

Info:
"After 70+ years, the EPA mandated that all domestic oil producers remove ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate) from all conventional and synthetic motor oil. If your engine was designed before 1989 the non-roller lifters require ZDDP to avoid premature deterioration. ZDDP also alters bearing and journal surface characteristics to prevent metal to metal contact. Under extreme conditions like a high performance motor, ZDDP reduces the tendency of parts to scuff or gall under heavy loads. Simply add ZDDP-Plus to every 4-5 quart oil change and your motor will be protected from metal to metal contact. Add one 4 ounce bottle to a 4-5 quart oil change modifier to eliminate and metal-to-metal contact ."

FAQ:
Can it be used in conventional and synthetic oils? YES.
Will too much hurt the motor? No, do not exceed 8 oz, 2 bottles.
Can I use it in any motor? NO, 1989 and older.
Will it work in diesel? NO, it will have no effect in a diesel motor

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It is possible to market just the anti-wear additive ZDDP. There aren't any severe health issues (like there are with tetra-ethyl lead to boost octane.) The ZDDP cost direct from an additive company is about $50/gallon and a fully formulated oil would contain about 1% volume. It is probably syrupy or a little runny. It will probably smell like rotten eggs because it contains sulfur.

The Info is a little wrong. The EPA did not mandate ZDDP reduction, the OEMs did so through the technical societies using the long term emissions limits as the reason why. Also, the ZDDP is only reduced by a third; what used to be normal was a ZDDP level (as measured by the phosphorus) of 1200 ppm, and now the newest oils are limited to 800 ppm max. So it is not (yet) to zero. ZDDP works as a sacrificial material that gets smeared off in case of very close metal to metal contact, but this helps mostly on hard metals (rings, liners, cams, lifters.) It would have limited usefulness on soft journal bearings, because they are supposed to conform to particles, dirt, and "save" the rotating part.

As far as use - now that you know today's oils still have "some" ZDDP and if you want to add more, you have to be a little suspect of the directions, since they imply the host oil has zero. I have no problem with increasing the ZDDP level from 800 ppm to 1200 ppm, but if the marketer didn't understand this, then you are effectively adding 1200 ppm on top of the existing 800ppm. That is still not "too" high, but 2000ppm is at the reasonably upper limit.

You can ask for the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) which should have the level of these active ingredients and calculate how much to add. I think they are required to provide it to you. Conversely, if it does not show phophorus or zinc, then the product is merely named "ZDDP" and doesn't actually contain it.

I do not believe the statement that it will have no effect in a diesel. I think it would help a diesel equally. (If it contains ZDDP)

Greg, since normal oils used to have 1200ppm P and special applications were up to 2400ppm (that I am aware of from the oil company days) I would say there is no need to go beyond 3000 ppm P. If anyone is doing that to "save" the engine, there must be a whole lot of problems they hope the oil is going to take care of. Plus, an engine is designed for a "normal" oil where the levels are far less, so it doesn't surprise me that excessive doses cause unusual problems.

It was just a test to see if it was possible to overdose a racing engine with ZDDP. They found out in the affirmative.

The engine was a typical Winston Cup 500 mile open carburetor engine. The side clearance on the top rings is set very tight on those engines (below .001") to eliminate ring flutter at 9000+ rpm.

I'm not sure if their engines require 2800-3000ppm to live, but they have the attitude that there is no such as an oil that lubricates too well, so they tend to push limits on the AW package level. The way I understand it......and I'd be happy to hear your opinion on this.....is that some of the ZDDP is "used up" during the race, and the effective ZDDP level is lower at the finish of the race than at the start.

This particular team claims that their engines make the same power at the end of a 500 mile race as they did when fresh on the dyno, and they attribute a lot of that to the oil.

Salt to taste.

ViperTony said:

Gentlemen, its unfortunate that this thread has to degrade away from the technical information many have been benefiting from in this thread. Please refrain from the insults especially if you don't have anything pertinent to add to this thread. Consider this a warning.

Thanks.

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My Sincere apologies to the VCA and it's members for my behavior in this thread. I will zip it up for a while.

Greg Good Cylinder Heads said:

I'm not sure if their engines require 2800-3000ppm to live, but they have the attitude that there is no such as an oil that lubricates too well, so they tend to push limits on the AW package level. The way I understand it......and I'd be happy to hear your opinion on this.....is that some of the ZDDP is "used up" during the race, and the effective ZDDP level is lower at the finish of the race than at the start.

This particular team claims that their engines make the same power at the end of a 500 mile race as they did when fresh on the dyno, and they attribute a lot of that to the oil.

Salt to taste.

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That is absolutely true that it gets used up. Plus, ZDDP gets used up not just by being the primary anti-wear additive, but it is also an anti-oxidant. So if the oil runs very hot, to prevent it from turning stinky and dark, the ZDDP interferes with that chemical degradation. You'll get that sulfur smell again.

I think the thinking (I speek English well, huh?) that more is better is not 100% right. I believe (intuition) that as long as there is "some" that is effective, you have enough. Then it becomes more a matter of how long a time it lasts. (If you want to use new, low ZDDP oils, do not risk overextending your oil drain interval.)

The risk with overtreating in a race engine is getting combustion chamber deposits that cause detonation. NASCAR good 'ol boys used to try aircraft engine oils because they had no organo-metallic additives, which helped control deposits when they were running as high a compression ratio as they could build. F1 engines are sensitive to fuel and oil related combustion chamber deposits because it only takes a little bit to upset the swirl and tumble they try to build into the process so the burn is complete at the ultra-high RPM. I've heard they can lose up to 10HP (out of 750-800) in their 18,000 RPM engines from this.

ViperTony said:

Gentlemen, its unfortunate that this thread has to degrade away from the technical information many have been benefiting from in this thread. Please refrain from the insults especially if you don't have anything pertinent to add to this thread. Consider this a warning.

Thanks.

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Sorry Tony

Sniper and I are all good...so no worries there.

Tom said:

That is absolutely true that it gets used up. Plus, ZDDP gets used up not just by being the primary anti-wear additive, but it is also an anti-oxidant. So if the oil runs very hot, to prevent it from turning stinky and dark, the ZDDP interferes with that chemical degradation. You'll get that sulfur smell again.

I think the thinking (I speek English well, huh?) that more is better is not 100% right. I believe (intuition) that as long as there is "some" that is effective, you have enough. Then it becomes more a matter of how long a time it lasts. (If you want to use new, low ZDDP oils, do not risk overextending your oil drain interval.)

The risk with overtreating in a race engine is getting combustion chamber deposits that cause detonation. NASCAR good 'ol boys used to try aircraft engine oils because they had no organo-metallic additives, which helped control deposits when they were running as high a compression ratio as they could build. F1 engines are sensitive to fuel and oil related combustion chamber deposits because it only takes a little bit to upset the swirl and tumble they try to build into the process so the burn is complete at the ultra-high RPM. I've heard they can lose up to 10HP (out of 750-800) in their 18,000 RPM engines from this.

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I wasn't saying *more is better*, but that one team wants enough AW package to start with so it still works at the end of the race.

The oil control on these engines is superb. You can pull the headers off and it is dry as a popcorn fart. They have ring seal down to a science. Normally the top ring seal is good enough so that on the dyno during a pull 2 cfm is all the blowby you get. A little bit is necessary to make the oil ring work anyway.

Greg Good Cylinder Heads said:

I wasn't saying *more is better*, but that one team wants enough AW package to start with so it still works at the end of the race.

The oil control on these engines is superb. You can pull the headers off and it is dry as a popcorn fart. They have ring seal down to a science. Normally the top ring seal is good enough so that on the dyno during a pull 2 cfm is all the blowby you get. A little bit is necessary to make the oil ring work anyway.

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My bad, I knew that.

Analytically it is difficult to measure used oil and report that "30% of the ZDDP is used up." It doesn't disappear, the zinc and phosphorus change their form and the basic used oil analysis still measures it as zinc and phosphorus. More involved testing is needed to determine the "remaining useful life" but this is not a routine test anywhere. What I meant to say was that if the team could afford this analysis, it would tell them how much ZDDP remained "ready for action" and they could reduce the starting level of ZDDP by this amount. That is all theory, I am sure they would be more comfortable with using the highest amount, not the least amount. But someday they may find having less is "better" and so there is a way to figure it out. They should hire me!

With that tight a ring seal, how thin an oil can / do they use?

They claim 20w.

They came to their choice of ZDDP level through wear analysis after teardowns running different amounts. I know they had some pushrod *spalling* when too little was used. That's the term they used. They're *probably* somewhere in between the level it took to weld the rings to the pistons and the level that hurt pushrod tips. Just guessing.

Moderators don't usually take that long to get someone straight who is intent on shoving their manliness around. I've seen people get "time out" for a lot less. Thanks ViperTony
Tom thanks for the oil info. I really had no idea it was that involved. I thought I was safe just using what was recommended by the manufacturer. I'll admit it though, now I'm just confused.

Tom or Greg, where would any of these oils be used? Such "strange" weights?

Your opinions of them?

Thanks



Q-Racing 17.5W35QT - Q-Racing Synthetic Oil

Q-Racing 0W5QT - Q-Racing Synthetic Oil

For those who need "more".

Q-Racing 0W5PL - Q-Racing Synthetic Oil

The 0-5w oil would be for a drag race car. An example would be an NHRA Pro Stocker. They run the engine as cold as possible. They hook the engine up to a cooler in the pits and get it as cool as possible before heading to the staging lanes. At the end of a run the engine temp is still below 100 degrees F. An engine like that needs a thin oil that has great cold pour specs.

I've never seen the other one. Kind of a weird weight.

Being a race oil, you would probably not want to run these on the street for very long, as it may not have enough detergent to neutralize acid.

I do like that they state the oil has anti foaming agents. Aeration is a big problem in racing engines. One plus of having a dry sump system is that the tank does not only hold the oil, it removes a lot of the air that is in it.

Jerome Sparich said:

Tom or Greg, where would any of these oils be used? Such "strange" weights?

Your opinions of them?

Thanks



Q-Racing 17.5W35QT - Q-Racing Synthetic Oil

Q-Racing 0W5QT - Q-Racing Synthetic Oil

For those who need "more".

Q-Racing 0W5PL - Q-Racing Synthetic Oil

Click to expand...

That's my ex-co-worker! In the late 1990's, Texaco and Shell had a joint venture to market fuels and lubricants in the US. Yes, the consumer didn't know it, but Texaco Havoline, Shell Rotella, Texaco and Shell gasolines, etc, were developed, manufactured, and marketed by the joint venture company called "Equilon." The lubricants people from Texaco were transferred to Shell's facility in Westhollow, outside of Houston. The joint venture was dissolved when Chevron acquired Texaco, leaving the ex-Texaco people stranded as Shell employees.

Anyway, met one of them a few years ago at a SEMA show and they got into these "tuner" oils because they can charge more, make more, etc. They saw people blending low and high viscosity oils and decided Shell (which owns Shell, Quaker, and Penzoil product lines) would lauch the "blends" under the Quaker name.

As far as I know, they are healthy street oils with completely non-standard names. There is no such thing as a 17.5W or -35 SAE viscosity classification. In fact, if those numbers are even halfway accurate, this is close to being a single grade.

I will try to look into it, but they aren't as special as the names make them sound. Marketing 101.

Tom, see if you find out if these oils have enough detergent for street use.

Thanks.

It's actually been hard to learn about. Don't know why.

The product data sheet is here: http://www.kineticgeneral.com/assets/02392QRacingSS1ab23.pdf

The patent (assuming this is the "racing oil") is here:
United States Patent: 7482312

(say hi to Paul Bastien; excellent formulator. And Shell has a fancy patent lawyer, because I didn't see anything in the patent that hasn't been done before at some point. Could simply be this combination of good, known ideas was not done before... )

The ZDDP level is high, the detergent is present, but at a lower level. The patent indicates a mixture of PAO and ester base oils and has other comments about minimal dispersants. My takeaway is that it is formulated to be a robust "racing" oil but only for short intervals. You cannot tell from just the oil analysis how long a drain interval; just from a wild, wild, wild guess I would say half the normal length. But at least it is not zero detergent and zero dispersant.

Tom said:

The ZDDP level is high, the detergent is present, but at a lower level. The patent indicates a mixture of PAO and ester base oils and has other comments about minimal dispersants. My takeaway is that it is formulated to be a robust "racing" oil but only for short intervals. You cannot tell from just the oil analysis how long a drain interval; just from a wild, wild, wild guess I would say half the normal length. But at least it is not zero detergent and zero dispersant.
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With the exception of having some ester based oil in it, this oil sounds like the Gibbs approach of high ZDP and low detergents.

Tom, have you ever read this SAE paper?

Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate-Dispersant Interactions: Effects on Solution Behavior and Wear

It's a basic *in lab* analysis of the interaction between ZDP and dispersant in an oil. I bought it and read it, but it's pretty much Greek to me.

Have you guys seen this (taken from Shell Rotella T meets CJ-4 specs - eTrucker) :

--------

I'm traveling for a day or two so don't think I won't answer, but later.

The Shell response is a little off - the "detergent package" affects the sulfated ash mostly. The phosphorus from ZDDP is not a detergent. But true, diesel engine oils are facing the SAPS (sulfated ash, phosphorus, sulfur) restrictions. But it's a total, not specifically to ZDDP.

It's OK. There is always API SH motorcycle oil.

Tom;
I checked through this thread and did not see this question. I have 1000 break-in miles on a Gen II balanced, Wisco forged pistons, Roller rockers, Manley I beam rods, etc. Has 10# Roe supercharger, Belanger headers 3" Borla exhaust. My builder just told me the best oil for this engine is Motul 300V 5w40. He says it has double ester,0% shear loss, friction modifier, enhanced oxidation stability, and is one of the few oils that is 100% synthetic.
My question is, where does this oil fit in to the scheme of things? Does what he is saying have merit?

Ron

Mobil1 Extended Performance

vipeuup said:

Mobil1 Extended Performance

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Apparently, by what he told me, Mobil 1 is not a true synthetic. It is fine for factory motors but when you get around double the horsepower it may not stand up??

HISSSSS, I recently searched the forum for "Motul" since I am planning on running it this summer since i will be autoXing and Tracking

From other Threads:

Tom said:

Group III=highly refined mineral oils that technically match "synthetic" base oils and are marketed as "synthetics."
Group IV= polyalpha olefins, the original and classic synthetic base oil
Group V= all others, which includes the large family of esters

Less expensive synthetics will be using Group III. Mobil has historically used Group IV, although I hear now in not all their M1 products? Motul uses a large percentage of Group V and some oils will use small amounts of Group V blended with Group IV.

Exotic and expensive base oils like esters can claim they are more attracted to metal surfaces and therefore provide a form of friction or wear benefit that other base oils don't. In the real world this is hard to quantify because to be accurate, the "test" engine has to have been in a situation where the danger was imminent, the situation has to be repeated with different base oils, and the situation has to have a better result with the ester vs. the other oils. I am sure that someone will say their engine survived something with esters and failed with others... hopefully if the engine failed there were many changes made to avoid the problem, not just an oil change.

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and from another:

Tom said:

Motul uses a synthetic ester to a large percentage vs. the typical Group III or polyalphaolefin base oils as in more common synthetic formulations. Esters are polar and so have an affinity for metal surfaces. Therefore they exhibit somewhat better boundary lubrication performance, although I would describe that as more and more insurance against catastrophe, not a horsepower gain.

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also, this thread has some good info on Motul:
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-g...aims-4x-better-protection-than-mobil-one.html
an excerpt:

DC Performance said:

When we started tracking the SRT Vipers; there was a big problem with oil pressure loss in corners.
We were having engines fail from oil starvation. A fix was in the works, but in the meantime we used a racing oil (Motul 15w-50). This oil somehow protected the motors for short periods without oil pressure (An additive). I have used this oil in race engines ever since.

What makes this oil work so well? I have noticed that oil temperatures are lower and engines tend to make less mechanical noise when cold.

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(I Love the search function!, u should try it)

Dom426h said:

HISSSSS, I recently searched the forum for "Motul" since I am planning on running it this summer since i will be autoXing and Tracking

From other Threads:



and from another:



also, this thread has some good info on Motul:
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-g...aims-4x-better-protection-than-mobil-one.html
an excerpt:


(I Love the search function!, u should try it)

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Dom426h;
Thanks for the tip and the info. You just answered my question. It is probably well worth it to spend $20 a quart for the Motul since I will only be changing oil once a year. He also said to stick to OEM filters as each car manufacturer has their own specs. I had thought the Fram for synthetics-XG16 would be better, but he recommended OEM.

I tried the search function as you suggested and found about 3 days of reading. The old dog just learned a new trick!! Thanks again.

Quick question about the Motul oil. There are a couple of different kinds of Motul oil like the synergie one and the 4 cycle one which looks like its for motorcycles. For example

Motul Synthetic Blend 4-Stroke Motor Oil 15W-50 1 Liter | Rocky Mountain ATV/MC

Motul 6100 Synergie 15W-50

So which one is for our Vipers?

double post