Build is on!!

[Jsparks]

Here is the plan for my build:

Paxton NOVI 2000 with 12lb pully
Gatorback belt
JE forged 9.0:1 pistons
Eagle forged H-beam rods w/Clevite bearings
Mopar Main bearings
ARP head stubs
Crower Billet custom ground cam
Crower performance lifters
Crower aluminum shaft mounted rocker arm kit
Crower adjustable timing set
ATI balancer
Custom head porting w/hand blend polished bowls, ported and polished intake and exhaust runners port matched to both
Machine work: boring and honing block with torque plate, planing heads, balancing rotating assemble, line hone, 3 angle valve job, teflon valve seals, bronze valve guides
Spec stage 5 clutch and aluminum flywheel
archer racing half shafts
competition diff. cover support
3.55 gear set
NGK 9 series plugs
Custom plug wires
Custom designed fuel system with high flow rails, 80lb. Siemens injectors, dual pumps, high flow filter
Snow water **** kit
non-sythentic break in oil follow by schaeffers synthetic oil
coolant with water wetter
before and after dynotuning
Cryotreat all hard parts

oh.....and the HRE comp 21 wheels with gloss black center/ chrome lip and PS2's 18/19's

I can't wait to get behind the wheel!! Slow and steady


What do guys think?

 

[jimmy6383]

Sounds INSANE!!! I'm jealous....can't wait to hear about it when you get it back.

 

[Paul Hawker]

All good stuff, except maybe for the 3:55 gear.

 

[Jsparks]

All good stuff, except maybe for the 3:55 gear.

Ya I know.....that is one the last things I am having a tough time deciding on.

I hate the fact that the car lurches at slow speeds. I was think the 3:55's would help solve that.

 

[Joseph Dell]

looks good. don't listen to anyone telling you not to do crower stuff. their rockers used to have problmes but their lifters/cam/etc... are quite good. hell, UGR only uses crower cams now. so we know they make power.

consider T&D or jesel for the rockers but keep the rest of the crower.

good luck!

 

[Jsparks]

looks good. don't listen to anyone telling you not to do crower stuff. their rockers used to have problmes but their lifters/cam/etc... are quite good. hell, UGR only uses crower cams now. so we know they make power.

consider T&D or jesel for the rockers but keep the rest of the crower.

good luck!

Thanks
I know a lot of guys are using the jesel rockers so I will look into them.

 

[Bobpantax]

"Snow water **** kit"

You originally mentioned tracking the car. Since you are using water ****, I assume that you meant the drag strip. Correct? If not, water **** for a raod course seems like an odd choice. Also, is the water **** in lieu of an intercoooler - I assume it is? I do not see an intercooler listed. Filling up the water **** container can get old quickly for some people. Will the car run well without the water ****? What is being used for the computer or a supplemental computer? Will you be able to dial in different programs? It seems like the car being built is a little different than a daily driver/track car but perhaps I am missing something. I notice the clutch and flywheel change out. Is the tranny going to be strengthened at all - cones and synchros? There is a reason the 2008 beefed up both of those components. If the motor described above produces the power you set as your original goal ( 1000HP) and you intend to fully utilize that power at the track, you might wish to beef up the tranny. Have fun. Good luck!

 

[Hiss]

That will be a beast.

I have the DLM SC install with the 3.55 gear and Spec fly wheel. Love the set up. The 3.55 and Spec gives improved throttle response and acceleration - improved shifting under power. The Viper is very quick.

Lurches some but not bad at all. Lurched a little when stock.

Who is doing the install.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

 

[Jsparks]

"Snow water **** kit"

You originally mentioned tracking the car. Since you are using water ****, I assume that you meant the drag strip. Correct? If not, water **** for a raod course seems like an odd choice. Also, is the water **** in lieu of an intercoooler - I assume it is? I do not see an intercooler listed. Filling up the water **** container can get old quickly for some people. Will the car run well without the water ****? What is being used for the computer or a supplemental computer? Will you be able to dial in different programs? It seems like the car being built is a little different than a daily driver/track car but perhaps I am missing something. I notice the clutch and flywheel change out. Is the tranny going to be strengthened at all - cones and synchros? There is a reason the 2008 beefed up both of those components. If the motor described above produces the power you set as your original goal ( 1000HP) and you intend to fully utilize that power at the track, you might wish to beef up the tranny. Have fun. Good luck!

My main plan for the car is to drive it. I will go to the strip to see what kind of times I can get. I would guess a few times a summer. I would love to go to a road course but my business prevents me from taking too much time off in the summer so not sure how often I will get there. I know it is overkill for a daily driver but WHAT THE HELL...it's a VIPER


Forgot to mention the intercooler. I will be running one.

The trans will have the input and output shafts cryoed. Any suggestions on who or where to look for beefier synchros?

They will be tuning the stock cpu with the software they have. This is brought up a lot and I have drilled my builder about it. He says he does not need a piggy back to the computer because his software has full access to the computer. He can save the programs on his computer and reflash my pcm anytime I want to change the tune. He tells me it is an investment on his part that most places don't do. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm told hennessey uses the software.

 

[Bobpantax]

1. There is a string in the archives that mentions a shop that strengthens Viper transmissions. I thought I had saved it so I could post the link here but I did not. Use the search feature. You should find it.

2. DC in LA tunes within the OEM controller so, assuming your tuner has the same capabilities, it should be possible. How many Vipers has your tuner modded? I was not aware that anyone had this capability outside of Dan Cragin's shop. Chrysler is aware of Dan's ability to manipulate the programming and his knowledge of the code involved but I was not under the impression that Chrysler's passive benevolent view of this activity extended past Dan's shop. Perhaps there has been a change. I know that others are selling OEM computers reprogrammed by DC but that is different.

 

[Jsparks]

1. There is a string in the archives that mentions a shop that strengthens Viper transmissions. I thought I had saved it so I could post the link here but I did not. Use the search feature. You should find it.

2. DC in LA tunes within the OEM controller so, assuming your tuner has the same capabilities, it should be possible. How many Vipers has your tuner modded? I was not aware that anyone had this capability outside of Dan Cragin's shop. Chrysler is aware of Dan's ability to manipulate the programming and his knowledge of the code involved but I was not under the impression that Chrysler's passive benevolent view of this activity extended past Dan's shop. Perhaps there has been a change. I know that others are selling OEM computers reprogrammed by DC but that is different.

Not too sure how he came about the software but apparently it was pretty expensive. He says he can turn off all the emissions parameters as well so no check engine lights. This will be the shops FIRST Viper tune. The tech as tuned a few genII's when he worked in Ill. They have all winter to make it right.

 

[steponz]

Probably the SCT stuff... Good luck...

joe

 

[Bobpantax]

Not too sure how he came about the software but apparently it was pretty expensive. He says he can turn off all the emissions parameters as well so no check engine lights. This will be the shops FIRST Viper tune. The tech as tuned a few genII's when he worked in Ill. They have all winter to make it right.

Your intentions are good but your logic is flawed. Assume you had a serious disease. Would you entrust yourself to a physician that had never treated the disease before and, perhaps, had a nurse that treated a disease that might have been similar once or twice? Or, would you use google and Entrezmed ( NIH search engine ) to find the most knowledgeable physician with respect to the treatment of the disease? The same logic applies to modding cars. There are many horror stories posted about members placing their trust in inexperienced and/or less than scrupulous tuners on the VCA chat. Some of the changes to the engine you are planning are not reversable. At the end of the winter, the patient could be dead. I don't mean to upset you but what you intend to do is take a risk with a high performance car that requires significant funds that I am sure that you would not take with yourself or any one you care about. It might, at first blush, seem less expensive to do the mods with this local shop, but I will be surprised if the project turns out well and the cost stays within the stated budget if you have one - in writing. If you do not have a budget in writing and intend to stay the course with the local tuner, get everything in writing, including parts, cost including parts and labor, performance goals, and time to completion. Also make it clear that if he is unable to get the car running to spec, he and his shop must pay to have the car transported to and from a shop that can get it to spec and pay any cost incurred with the new shop. Just take a look at the recent string on SVS for an example of what can happen when everything concerning the modification is not in writing. ( I am not taking sides on the SVS matter. It is mentioned only to illustrate what can happen when everything is not clear and in writing.) Good luck.

 

[Jsparks]

Not too sure how he came about the software but apparently it was pretty expensive. He says he can turn off all the emissions parameters as well so no check engine lights. This will be the shops FIRST Viper tune. The tech as tuned a few genII's when he worked in Ill. They have all winter to make it right.

Your intentions are good but your logic is flawed. Assume you had a serious disease. Would you entrust yourself to a physician that had never treated the disease before and, perhaps, had a nurse that treated a disease that might have been similar once or twice? Or, would you use google and Entrezmed ( NIH search engine ) to find the most knowledgeable physician with respect to the treatment of the disease? The same logic applies to modding cars. There are many horror stories posted about members placing their trust in inexperienced and/or less than scrupulous tuners on the VCA chat. Some of the changes to the engine you are planning are not reversable. At the end of the winter, the patient could be dead. I don't mean to upset you but what you intend to do is take a risk with a high performance car that requires significant funds that I am sure that you would not take with yourself or any one you care about. It might, at first blush, seem less expensive to do the mods with this local shop, but I will be surprised if the project turns out well and the cost stays within the stated budget if you have one - in writing. If you do not have a budget in writing and intend to stay the course with the local tuner, get everything in writing, including parts, cost including parts and labor, performance goals, and time to completion. Also make it clear that if he is unable to get the car running to spec, he and his shop must pay to have the car transported to and from a shop that can get it to spec and pay any cost incurred with the new shop. Just take a look at the recent string on SVS for an example of what can happen when everything concerning the modification is not in writing. ( I am not taking sides on the SVS matter. It is mentioned only to illustrate what can happen when everything is not clear and in writing.) Good luck.

Certainly appreciate your concerns. I have a build sheet that has all the specs in writing with part brands and numbers along with a warranty. I wouldn't really classify these guys as just "some shop". I am not dropping the car off to a guy who does it out of his garage. You have to give me a little more credit than that. I have research these guys and like I said before they have some really innovative stuff out there that nobody else has done....just not to a Viper..yet.

 

[mbccenter]

What headers and exhaust are you going to run?

 

[Bobpantax]

Certainly appreciate your concerns. I have a build sheet that has all the specs in writing with part brands and numbers along with a warranty. I wouldn't really classify these guys as just "some shop". I am not dropping the car off to a guy who does it out of his garage. You have to give me a little more credit than that. I have research these guys and like I said before they have some really innovative stuff out there that nobody else has done....just not to a Viper..yet.

Hi. I am not suggesting that the shop is good or bad - just inexperienced with Vipers. Ask any of the nationally recognized Viper tuners how long it took to become an expert in reliably modding Vipers beyond plug and play mods. It is not an easy skill set to acquire. Our cars are hand assembled. Because of this, no two are exactly alike. Make sure it is clear in your contract and under the warranty who pays for any remedial action required if things do not turn out the way you want them to. Good luck.

 

[Jsparks]

Hi. I am not suggesting that the shop is good or bad - just inexperienced with Vipers. Ask any of the nationally recognized Viper tuners how long it took to become an expert in reliably modding Vipers beyond plug and play mods. It is not an easy skill set to acquire. Our cars are hand assembled. Because of this, no two are exactly alike. Make sure it is clear in your contract and under the warranty who pays for any remedial action required if things do not turn out the way you want them to. Good luck.

It's interesting in that there is a very distinct line in the thought about tuning. I read many posts like yours above about making sure it goes to a "Viper tuner". Then I have all sorts of guys PM me afraid to post in public that tuning is tuning period. It seems that properties of gasoline combustion are based on things like air/fuel ratio under certain boost or compression parameters; not how many cylinders. If someone could explain to me why the Viper is diff. than say a v-8 with 12lb of boost and 9:1 comp. I would be more likely to see the argument your way.

What headers and exhaust are you going to run?

Going with B&B stepped headers and exhaust with cat delete. I am going to keep the crossover.

 

[ROCKET62]

Why are you thinking about keeping the crossover as that is a huge source of cabin heat? Even dodge got rid of it starting in '08.

Good luck with the build - there will be a lot of people saying "I told you so" no matter how it turns out.

 

[Bobpantax]

It's interesting in that there is a very distinct line in the thought about tuning. I read many posts like yours above about making sure it goes to a "Viper tuner". Then I have all sorts of guys PM me afraid to post in public that tuning is tuning period. It seems that properties of gasoline combustion are based on things like air/fuel ratio under certain boost or compression parameters; not how many cylinders. If someone could explain to me why the Viper is diff. than say a v-8 with 12lb of boost and 9:1 comp. I would be more likely to see the argument your way.

In the other applications you mentioned the computer code is open. The Viper engine has an atypical firing order which, I have been told, together with the closed code, creates a more difficult tuning environment. Based on seven years of reading modding posts on this board, it seems like Vipers tend to develop peculiar, sometimes difficult to diagnose, problems ( electrical, fuel delivery, computer codes ) during the modding and tuning process which an experienced Viper tuner can quickly diagnose and remedy as opposed to a less experienced tuner using trial and error to diagnose and correct the problem. One of the secrets of this board is that there are a significant number of Viper owners out there who spent a considerable amount of money on mods beyond plug and play mods who never were able to get the car to run well despite spending thousands more to try to do so. This data is shared by PM because people are afraid to post due to the spirited defense of any one particular tuner which is usually raised by his or her loyal followers. A tuner's best client is always someone addicted to acceleration and velocity who knows little about the mechanicals and has a pocket full of cash. ( I am not saying that this is your case.) Then, the tuner ( not all tuners) can use layers of BS to keep building the check.

The Viper, like every other performance car, was designed as an organic whole. All the systems were engineered to complement each other. When you tinker with one, it can affect others. An experienced Viper tuner is aware of the various interactions because he or she has seen them on many occasions. For instance, there was a Gen III with a stock Paxton installation and no other engine mods. It started pinging under certain conditions. It was a puzzle to the local tuner. Dan Cragin diagnosed the problem immediately after seeing the dyno graph sent by fax. An employee of the local tuner ( not a Miami tuner ) had inserted the wrong size washer in the fuel control unit. It took five minutes to swap out the washer and all was well. Someone without Dan's familiarity with the Viper and the Paxton unit would not have immediately diagnosed the problem. As far as the *** saying "tuning is tuning", I think such statements are naive. There are different levels of tuners. The more experience a tuner has with a particular vehicle, the better he or she will be with that vehicle. Once again. Whatever you end up doing, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Jsparks]

In the other applications you mentioned the computer code is open. The Viper engine has an atypical firing order which, I have been told, together with the closed code, creates a more difficult tuning environment. Based on seven years of reading modding posts on this board, it seems like Vipers tend to develop peculiar, sometimes difficult to diagnose, problems ( electrical, fuel delivery, computer codes ) during the modding and tuning process which an experienced Viper tuner can quickly diagnose and remedy as opposed to a less experienced tuner using trial and error to diagnose and correct the problem. One of the secrets of this board is that there are a significant number of Viper owners out there who spent a considerable amount of money on mods beyond plug and play mods who never were able to get the car to run well despite spending thousands more to try to do so. This data is shared by PM because people are afraid to post due to the spirited defense of any one particular tuner which is usually raised by his or her loyal followers. A tuner's best client is always someone addicted to acceleration and velocity who knows little about the mechanicals and has a pocket full of cash. ( I am not saying that this is your case.) Then, the tuner ( not all tuners) can use layers of BS to keep building the check.

The Viper, like every other performance car, was designed as an organic whole. All the systems were engineered to complement each other. When you tinker with one, it can affect others. An experienced Viper tuner is aware of the various interactions because he or she has seen them on many occasions. For instance, there was a Gen III with a stock Paxton installation and no other engine mods. It started pinging under certain conditions. It was a puzzle to the local tuner. Dan Cragin diagnosed the problem immediately after seeing the dyno graph sent by fax. An employee of the local tuner ( not a Miami tuner ) had inserted the wrong size washer in the fuel control unit. It took five minutes to swap out the washer and all was well. Someone without Dan's familiarity with the Viper and the Paxton unit would not have immediately diagnosed the problem. As far as the *** saying "tuning is tuning", I think such statements are naive. There are different levels of tuners. The more experience a tuner has with a particular vehicle, the better he or she will be with that vehicle. Once again. Whatever you end up doing, I wish you the best of luck.

I appreciate the response. I am relatively familiar with the gasoline engine in that I have built a handful of motors from the block up. Some strokers, some big block, some small blocks but all naturally aspirated. The only tuning I'm familiar with are the jets in the Holley carbs and the weights and twisting of an HEI distributor.

I can look at it this way; If for some reason they cannot tune it properly the majority of the cost of my build is parts and mechanical. I could have the car shipped to SVS or one of the Viper tuners and have them tune it.....if they would. Big3 is very confident in their tuning abilities but I have some reservations now with all of your responses. They have close relationships with many manufacturers so hopefully if they can't they will have connections that can.

 

[Jsparks]

Update:

Car goes tomorrow!! I'm starting to get pumped!

Swapping out the crower rockers for Jesels

Ditching the 3.55 gears and keeping stock

Adding billet main caps instead of stock.

Any suggestions are still welcome. Thanks

Josh

 

[steponz]

Not sure I would get rid of the gears... but you could also try to get a 3.33 gear....

Joe

 

[Viper X]

My .02 cents.

Swapping out the crower rockers for Jesels - both are good at this point.

Ditching the 3.55 gears and keeping stock. Good, now add a Quaife. You'll toast the stock diff.

Adding billet main caps instead of stock. Good.

Any suggestions are still welcome. Thanks

Josh

Spec 5 clutch - don't think I'd use that one. The Spec 3+ is plenty for my car.

PS2's won't come close to holding your new power level. Consider stickier rear tires.

Dont fool around with tuning. I've burned up two engines with bad tunes, then went to DC. Call Dan Cragin.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[Jsparks]

My .02 cents.

Swapping out the crower rockers for Jesels - both are good at this point.

Ditching the 3.55 gears and keeping stock. Good, now add a Quaife. You'll toast the stock diff.

Adding billet main caps instead of stock. Good.

Any suggestions are still welcome. Thanks

Josh

Spec 5 clutch - don't think I'd use that one. The Spec 3+ is plenty for my car.

PS2's won't come close to holding your new power level. Consider stickier rear tires.

Dont fool around with tuning. I've burned up two engines with bad tunes, then went to DC. Call Dan Cragin.

Good luck,

Dan

OK. Maybe I will stay with the crower shaft mounts and use the extra money toward the quaife. It seems that guys were having trouble with the crower's earlier rockers but not the new ones. What tires would you recommend? I'm staying with the 19s in the rear so not sure what other options I have.