A lot would and a lot wouldn't. Frankly, I think buyers would. I know I would. 15 yrs in vipers but I'm not tied to the v10, I'm tips to the performance. But they'd have to prove a FI solution would work for prolonged track duty.
Charger Hellcat too
- Thread starter sunsalem
- Start date
There has been a lot of discussion regarding FI for track duty.
Those who say it won't work are simply wrong.
Anyone who follows Sportscar Racing knows this.
Every single overall winner of the 24 Hours of Le Mans in this century has been won by a turbo....no exceptions.
In light of that fact, saying FI can't handle racetrack conditions is ridiculous and ignorant.
That's likely the million dollar question. Personally, I'd still rather see something NA over FI though, just from a service and complexity standpoint. Turbos throw out so much heat that the temperature cycles of parts under the hood would make me a little nervous over the life of the vehicle. Vipers are known for running forever with fairly little work besides standard maintenance. Not saying it's impossible to do that with a factory FI build, but having spent 12+ hours under the hood of my old 2000 XKR replacing head gaskets, there are so many f'ing hoses and wires going everywhere that it's just a complete pain to work on anything. Not to mention almost all of the wiring is stiff and crackly now, so I'm just hoping it's not all broken after the heat cycles. To pull the head off my retrofit 5.7 Hemi in my Dart I needed to pull an intake, valve cover, and exhaust manifold and I was pretty much done in a few hours. A few hours into the Jag and all I had to show for it was the supercharger removed.
Just picturing the cooling system on the Hellcat makes me squirm. There have got to be so many hoses and radiators to keep that thing cool in full blast summer weather. I can't imagine packing that kind of heat under an even smaller engine compartment of a Viper without some major heat management stuff going on. Everything would have to be shielded, making it twice the work to do anything since you'd have to remove all of that stuff first.
I've been throwing FI on cars since 1989 and it's not as complicated as it appears. Is it as totally simple as not FI, nah, but it's not rocket science either. Pushing NA engines to the limit can be more stressful then a mild engine with FI, while getting the same HP. Nice thing about FI, when you're not getting into, you're babying it.
As for the FI debate about the track, what guys are debating is the GT500 and ZR1 type cars, not multi-million dollar race-only cars. Anyone who says current FI cars don't slow from heat soak doesn't track one. I can tell you first hand that all my GT500s lost power from heat soak, just like a ZR1 will, so you have a consistency issue, especially on a 95 degree summer day in the humidity.
That being said, what I say is, I run my 700rwhp GT500 at the track and I may heat soak after 4 or 5 laps and lose 10% power, but that's still 630rwhp, it's not like it gets "slow", I'm still driving around everything on the track, lol. But for those who buy, less than 5% probably track their cars in a competitive way, vs just trackdays ( like me ), and even trackday guys are probably 10-20% at the very most, so 80% of people shouldn't care. Trackday guys shouldn't care, you're not competing and will still pass people, so whatever. Actual racers will want the dead-on consistency and yea they may have an issue, but if MOPAR would do it, they could upgrade heat exchangers and other gear to compensate, just like the GT500 market.
As for the FI debate about the track, what guys are debating is the GT500 and ZR1 type cars, not multi-million dollar race-only cars. Anyone who says current FI cars don't slow from heat soak doesn't track one. I can tell you first hand that all my GT500s lost power from heat soak, just like a ZR1 will, so you have a consistency issue, especially on a 95 degree summer day in the humidity.
That being said, what I say is, I run my 700rwhp GT500 at the track and I may heat soak after 4 or 5 laps and lose 10% power, but that's still 630rwhp, it's not like it gets "slow", I'm still driving around everything on the track, lol. But for those who buy, less than 5% probably track their cars in a competitive way, vs just trackdays ( like me ), and even trackday guys are probably 10-20% at the very most, so 80% of people shouldn't care. Trackday guys shouldn't care, you're not competing and will still pass people, so whatever. Actual racers will want the dead-on consistency and yea they may have an issue, but if MOPAR would do it, they could upgrade heat exchangers and other gear to compensate, just like the GT500 market.
Rest assured that Ford would do all that I suggested for a power increase from 662 tp 777. A power increase of 115 HP would require complete durability testing and probably an engine recertification. After market mods, even by the best companies, do not go through anywhere near the testing and do not have to meet the strict standards of an OEM product.
Sorry, Bob, I didn't mean the comparison from factory to my mods, I meant from the 2011/12 GT500 to the 2013/14 GT500. SVT added 112hp to the engine and there are virtually no changes to the overall car. I owned both. Owning the '11, with 550hp, we were all nay sayers, me included, that SVT would release a 100+hp increase in the trident mod motor that was in it's last 2 yrs of supposed life due to the reasons you state, which is common sense.
BUT, they did just that. So ... why wouldn't they do I again? They would, SVT is known for it. I only wish SRT somehow had the ability SVT does to push out massive changes like this in ridiculously short timelines. In 2012, the notion of SVT adding 112hp to the GT500 was laughed at as garbage rumors, and here we go again. I have no doubt that if SVT wants to put it out, they can & will, at a timelime that will shock you & us, like they have done before.
I think there is some difference between a factory FI car and an aftermarket kit though. I'd agree that putting FI on a car isn't necessarily rocket science and in many cases isn't that difficult, but I don't think those systems are typically designed to the same kind of standards and regulations that an OEM will typically build for. An aftermarket kit lasting 10's of thousands of miles is still different than an OEM application that has to last the lifetime of the vehicle.
I'd agree though, any car built to that kind of power, whether NA or FI, is going to tax parts. You can't just magically make power without stressing parts. Power is power and has the same effects regardless of how you get it. You're typically just moving the stress around in the engine. An NA build might be harder on valvetrain, but an FI build would probably push pistons and rotating assemblies a little harder. Kinda like NOS vs FI. Both can make the same power, but NOS is typically a sharper quick hit to parts while FI builds in power and is a little less shock.
I think most of us would, but the desire for more HP seems to be very important to a lot of guys.
Personally, I wouldn't even think about getting under the hood of a modern car.
Please stop making sense....this is the internet.
What would be more "funny" is if the number was 666.
I have had 2 SVT vehicles and can attest to their excellence.
Amen to that.
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
While I agree with your statements below, even a smaller % of buyers know how to use the power, so really the same argument in both cases. I guess it always comes down to "bragging rights" which really does not have much logic to it, but plenty of passion.
I think what people always forget though is FI adds on avg about 150-200lbs of weight to the nose and then you no longer have the 50/50 balance. Now, if only care for bragging rights, it does not matter. If you want to turn, it definitely does.
I think what people always forget though is FI adds on avg about 150-200lbs of weight to the nose and then you no longer have the 50/50 balance. Now, if only care for bragging rights, it does not matter. If you want to turn, it definitely does.
Well, yea, but since when have buyers of perf cars paid attention to their abilities when shopping for cars? LoL, but seriously.
As for handling, I think people look at the vette and see handling isn't an issue with FI, and other exotics running twin & quad turbos, and no handling issues. So your points are well taken, but with the benchmarks out there I think buyers are comparing cars in a bracket where these aren't decision making issues.
Sounds like there's a chance this debate might finally end:
http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2014/08/supercharged-viper
As always, take things with a grain of salt, but looks like someone in the engineering department got their feathers ruffled by the horsepower wars like so many others here.
http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2014/08/supercharged-viper
As always, take things with a grain of salt, but looks like someone in the engineering department got their feathers ruffled by the horsepower wars like so many others here.
This is the kind of news that makes people pick up the phone and call their accountant.
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
agreed. I think the difference is the others were designed with that extra weight in mind. Me personally, would rather have the car have 200lbs removed and same power but that is probably even more expensive.
SnakeBitten
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Interesting
Now for another thread/debate on speculating what the final SC'd hp will be.Not surprising.
For the numbers guys, it's "the Emperor has no pants."
I don't think the folks developing the Hellcat sat down with Team Viper beforehand.
Other than Woodhouse or Tomball, I wouldn't trust ANY Dealer with such a task....no way, no how.
True, but....
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
Also be aware that the full 707 hp is not available in any gear except 6th. Torque is restricted in the lower gears to protect the transmission.
Viper is still the faster car, no matter what the specs say.
If you want the faster car, buy the Viper. If you want the higher horsepower for bragging rights, buy the Challenger.
Viper is still the faster car, no matter what the specs say.
If you want the faster car, buy the Viper. If you want the higher horsepower for bragging rights, buy the Challenger.
MotorTrend just dyno'd a Challenger in 5th gear(auto) and it made 635rwhp/591rwtq. Thats all the advertised 707hp and 650tq plus some.
pathoguy
Enthusiast
Like many viper owners and likely potential owners, I don't drive fast but really enjoy driving a fast car. The two most common questions asked about my Gen V are: how fast does it go. what's the horsepower? So I want both...fast car and bragging rights. It's got nothing to do with making any sense.....it's an emotional/passionate purchase where logic and reason have little involvement (at least for me).
Damn that was well said.
This and then some.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Too funny discussing bragging rights. Not too many years ago....it used to be all about the factory stereo systems (Ha) and not so much on performance. At least current discussions are back on performance attributes. Well...you still see wayyy tooooo muuuuuch emphasis on electronics and gadgetry for me...
The Japanese recently had a VIP convention to discuss how they were going to combat the Hellcat.....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bQptfdSCdhs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bQptfdSCdhs
LOL, what a great video to go with my first cup of coffee of the day.
Like the old saying goes, "There's no accounting for taste."
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