Ulysses
Enthusiast
Standard procedure for a engine failure is to pull engine and have Arrow rebuild it. Unless the failure is catastrophic, then I assume they replace.
Dealer wants to replace entire engine!!!
- Thread starter Ulysses
- Start date
Mark Young
Enthusiast
Not necessarily so. My Viper tech replaced all my lifters under warranty due to extreme lifter noise in a couple cylinders. That is a pretty involved thing and my motor didn't go back to arrow. The tech did a great job, and no more lifter noise!
Tomer
Enthusiast
SInce i know you are anxious, I will throw in my .02.
Arrow is a racing company, I believe in Tx? Do some web searching you should be able to find them...My understanding is the engine production is sub contracted to this company...
Other folks with direct experience will chime in soon!
Tomer
Arrow is a racing company, I believe in Tx? Do some web searching you should be able to find them...My understanding is the engine production is sub contracted to this company...
Other folks with direct experience will chime in soon!
Tomer
GTS Jeff
Enthusiast
I believe arrow is in michigan
http://www.arrowracingengines.com/index.htm
Arrow Racing Engines Inc
3811 Industrial Drive, Rochester, MI 48309
hope this helps
http://www.arrowracingengines.com/index.htm
Arrow Racing Engines Inc
3811 Industrial Drive, Rochester, MI 48309
hope this helps
Jeff Torrey
Enthusiast
Chuck Tator (NY) is authorized and I think Dan Cragin is too.
SSSSE YA
Enthusiast
Dan Cragin( The Viper Shop)is authorized, he will be doing my recall work for me.
Viper Wizard
Enthusiast
ocarguy,
Lets talk before you do anything!
Lets talk before you do anything!
viperdoctor
Enthusiast
Sounds like they are trying to make some unjustified warranty dollars at your expense.
How does the car run? Does it shake like crazy because it's running on only 9 or less cylinders? I am guessing not, because you only mentioned the check engine light as an indication of a problem.
Has the simple stuff been done: Spark Plugs, Wires, checking that there is voltage sent to the cylinder(s) misfiring?
My car had 3 cylinders misfiring at 9000 miles and I only changed the plugs and cleared the codes and the errors went away. I could not notice that they were misfiring while driving. It was the engine light that told me.
I am sorry, but electrical problems leave most mechanics completely clueless. So I wouldn't give up on that as a problem just because they said it's not.
Assuming it is a mechanical problem, have the traditional leak down tests been done?
I would do anything you can to avoid pulling the engine. It's a crap shoot that they put it together right and now the car is not original. Not to mention the 1-3 months that you will be Viperless wondering if they are eating their lunches and napping on your lame Viper.
First, get a second opinion from another Dodge dealer. Then try to find people that can do the standard tests for these types of problems. Maybe nearby club members can help.
Good luck.
How does the car run? Does it shake like crazy because it's running on only 9 or less cylinders? I am guessing not, because you only mentioned the check engine light as an indication of a problem.
Has the simple stuff been done: Spark Plugs, Wires, checking that there is voltage sent to the cylinder(s) misfiring?
My car had 3 cylinders misfiring at 9000 miles and I only changed the plugs and cleared the codes and the errors went away. I could not notice that they were misfiring while driving. It was the engine light that told me.
I am sorry, but electrical problems leave most mechanics completely clueless. So I wouldn't give up on that as a problem just because they said it's not.
Assuming it is a mechanical problem, have the traditional leak down tests been done?
I would do anything you can to avoid pulling the engine. It's a crap shoot that they put it together right and now the car is not original. Not to mention the 1-3 months that you will be Viperless wondering if they are eating their lunches and napping on your lame Viper.
First, get a second opinion from another Dodge dealer. Then try to find people that can do the standard tests for these types of problems. Maybe nearby club members can help.
Good luck.
HP
Enthusiast
Just because the factory Viper techs and tuners, that post here,
are capable of working on your motor, don't assume all factory
techs are. I can tell you from personal experience some
factory techs would be over their heads. Anymore, I will always
get references from other members before I have anything complicated done to my car. Or get one of the Viper friendly
techs on the forum to recommend someone.
are capable of working on your motor, don't assume all factory
techs are. I can tell you from personal experience some
factory techs would be over their heads. Anymore, I will always
get references from other members before I have anything complicated done to my car. Or get one of the Viper friendly
techs on the forum to recommend someone.
Roland L-Ocala FL
Enthusiast
OK, here is the procedure that the dealer has to follow as I remember it. The symptoms have to be checked and verified by a certified Viper Technician, and then called in to Chrysler Star (STAR is an acronym for Chrysler's main service center), and then STAR decides what happens next. If STAR decides that the motor has to come out because the work involved is more than can be done by the dealer, then out it comes and it gets crated up by the dealer and sent back to Arrow Racing Engines in Detroit. They are a premier racing engine builder in Detroit and the only factory authorized repair company to do the work on Viper engine rebuilds.
If STAR has not been involved in the decision yet, then the dealer is not being straight with you on this. Get with Chuck Tator, hew has a previous post in this thread, and he can tell you how to proceed. I doubt that a misfire in one cylinder is cause for an engine replacement, but you never know.
If STAR has not been involved in the decision yet, then the dealer is not being straight with you on this. Get with Chuck Tator, hew has a previous post in this thread, and he can tell you how to proceed. I doubt that a misfire in one cylinder is cause for an engine replacement, but you never know.
Toby
Enthusiast
Say goodbye to your resale value too.
What a nightmare.
Janni
Enthusiast
I really don't believe that any Arrow engine work or even an engine replacement is going to cause any dip in resale value in the short term, and maybe not at all to experienced Viper buyers. Heck, some owners / buyers look at an Arrow rebuild as a "good thing" and wear it as a badge of honor... Numbers matching is something that we'll be thinking about 20 years down the road....
Toby
Enthusiast
If had had two of the same Vipers next to each other... one had a rebuild...the other was 100% from the factory...I would take the factory car.
Sounds to me like the dealer just isn't qualified to make repairs... I'd find a new dealer...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janni:
Numbers matching is something that we'll be thinking about 20 years down the road....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Granted, but it IS something you will think about eventually. For today's value I'd say it wouldn't make a HUGE difference, but down the road it will...
Numbers matching is something that we'll be thinking about 20 years down the road....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Granted, but it IS something you will think about eventually. For today's value I'd say it wouldn't make a HUGE difference, but down the road it will...
Does your engine have any mods that you know of (since you said it is used)? If it does, your warranty may be denied, and then the expense comes out of your pocket....
The code you mention can trigger in years 2000-02 Vipers with particular mods....
-Wayne
The code you mention can trigger in years 2000-02 Vipers with particular mods....
-Wayne
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Dan Cragin (The Viper Shop) is authorized, he will be doing my recall work for me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ron: I emailed Dan Cragin about three weeks ago with regards to performing recall/warranty work on my 97 GTS. He informed me he was no longer authorized to do either. (I still have his email) Maybe something has changed in the past three weeks?
Dan, Can you address this?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Dodge wants them to replace the whole engine with a new crate motor
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
If had had two of the same Vipers next to each other... one had a rebuild...the other was 100% from the factory...I would take the factory car.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Toby T: From what OCARGUY states, Dodge is going to replace his motor with a new crate engine, not a rebuild. Although this will definitely make the car a non matching numbers car (since the original VIN is located on engine block as well as the transmission), I don't belive this will make that much of a difference in resale value, at least in the short term (5-8 year period) and certainly not to every potential buyer. Heck if I had a choice of two cars side by side, one with a new/er crate engine and one with an engine that had been used (and who knows if abused etc...) I would definitely pick the one with the new/er crate engine. And, if Chrysler does elect to have Arrow rebuild OCARGUY's present engine, then his VIN numbers will still match, and he will have a fresh engine!
Greg D
97 Blue/White GTS (300380)
Bone stock with matching numbers
64 Nova, low 9 (soon to be high 8) second street car.
Dan Cragin (The Viper Shop) is authorized, he will be doing my recall work for me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ron: I emailed Dan Cragin about three weeks ago with regards to performing recall/warranty work on my 97 GTS. He informed me he was no longer authorized to do either. (I still have his email) Maybe something has changed in the past three weeks?
Dan, Can you address this?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Dodge wants them to replace the whole engine with a new crate motor
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
If had had two of the same Vipers next to each other... one had a rebuild...the other was 100% from the factory...I would take the factory car.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Toby T: From what OCARGUY states, Dodge is going to replace his motor with a new crate engine, not a rebuild. Although this will definitely make the car a non matching numbers car (since the original VIN is located on engine block as well as the transmission), I don't belive this will make that much of a difference in resale value, at least in the short term (5-8 year period) and certainly not to every potential buyer. Heck if I had a choice of two cars side by side, one with a new/er crate engine and one with an engine that had been used (and who knows if abused etc...) I would definitely pick the one with the new/er crate engine. And, if Chrysler does elect to have Arrow rebuild OCARGUY's present engine, then his VIN numbers will still match, and he will have a fresh engine!
Greg D
97 Blue/White GTS (300380)
Bone stock with matching numbers
64 Nova, low 9 (soon to be high 8) second street car.
dadsvpr
Enthusiast
isn't there a lemon law for something like this? used or not that car is new, i'm sure still under warranty. the value of the car is affected already, it has a service history that does not reflect on it positively.
jason
jason
Roland L-Ocala FL
Enthusiast
Unless there is major damage to the block itself, then why can't it be rebuilt? Heck, the heads should be replaceable, or are they numbers matching too? If you go the Arrow rebuild, you still have a numbers matching car after all is said and done! Am I missing something here as to why it has to be replaced with a crate motor?
I would say that someone looking for a use Viper and knows the engine has been rebuilt by Arrow will not have any problem at all with that (pricewise I mean)! But if the engine has been replaced with a crate motor, if they are somewhat of a purist, they won't touch it unless the price is quite a bit lower.
I would say that someone looking for a use Viper and knows the engine has been rebuilt by Arrow will not have any problem at all with that (pricewise I mean)! But if the engine has been replaced with a crate motor, if they are somewhat of a purist, they won't touch it unless the price is quite a bit lower.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dadsvpr:
isn't there a lemon law for something like this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only if you can prove that replacing the motor will not fix the check engine light. I think the manufacture gets three-four shots at doing it right.
Ronald - An Arrow rebuild would only hold its value to a VCA member or enthusiast (most of which are not looking to buy anymore.) The average person looking to but they wouldn't know Arrow from Hennessey from Bob's Country Grill and Garage. As far as the average buyer is concerned a rebuild or replace is just that - an engine that couldn't be fixed. No matter how much documentation you have, no matter how many people stand behind you and preach the wonders of Arrow, it will still look like abuse or lemon to a potential owner.
If you plan on the car keeping value a decade from now try to have that motor fixed (best yet have that specific motor rebuilt by Arrow). If power and reliability outweigh the costs then have it replaced. Its really a no-lose situation today.
isn't there a lemon law for something like this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only if you can prove that replacing the motor will not fix the check engine light. I think the manufacture gets three-four shots at doing it right.
Ronald - An Arrow rebuild would only hold its value to a VCA member or enthusiast (most of which are not looking to buy anymore.) The average person looking to but they wouldn't know Arrow from Hennessey from Bob's Country Grill and Garage. As far as the average buyer is concerned a rebuild or replace is just that - an engine that couldn't be fixed. No matter how much documentation you have, no matter how many people stand behind you and preach the wonders of Arrow, it will still look like abuse or lemon to a potential owner.
If you plan on the car keeping value a decade from now try to have that motor fixed (best yet have that specific motor rebuilt by Arrow). If power and reliability outweigh the costs then have it replaced. Its really a no-lose situation today.
onerareviper
Enthusiast
Viperholics,
Who really cares about matching numbers?... I can see in the case of old muscle cars/Corvettes, where they had different engine sizes and Horsepower ratings/specs. But for God sakes, it is going to be the EXACT same motor. Same horsepower. Same everything. Only a different VIN stamping. Whoopdy-f*ckin-dooo.
Better yet, you are getting a BRAND NEW motor. You will have piece-of-mind, knowing it is broken in properly, and not abused unless you are doing the abuse. Who knows what the previous owner really did.... I say get the new motor and be happy!!!
My .02.
Who really cares about matching numbers?... I can see in the case of old muscle cars/Corvettes, where they had different engine sizes and Horsepower ratings/specs. But for God sakes, it is going to be the EXACT same motor. Same horsepower. Same everything. Only a different VIN stamping. Whoopdy-f*ckin-dooo.
Better yet, you are getting a BRAND NEW motor. You will have piece-of-mind, knowing it is broken in properly, and not abused unless you are doing the abuse. Who knows what the previous owner really did.... I say get the new motor and be happy!!!
My .02.
Jeff Torrey
Enthusiast
Ocarguy- Please get in touch with Chuck Tator. He completely rebuilt my engine- WHILE IT WAS IN THE CAR. He can negotiate with Dodge to get the work done under warrantee. Depending on what part of Pennsylvania you are from, his shop is not all that far away from you. Your car can still be a numbers matching car. Take a deep breath and think about an old garage out in the country. With a friendly mechanic that knows how to baby your Viper. It's oldest Dodge dealership in the world. Don't get discouraged and sell the car. You'll regret it.
Viper Wizard
Enthusiast
Jeff, Thank You!
[waiting for one more A/C part]
ocarguy,
"We have the technology, we can rebuild him! He'll be better then new!" [it wont cost six million,Ha]
I am one of maybe three Dealers in this Country that is authorized to do "In-house" engine overhauls under Warranty!
You have Mail!
[waiting for one more A/C part]
ocarguy,
"We have the technology, we can rebuild him! He'll be better then new!" [it wont cost six million,Ha]
I am one of maybe three Dealers in this Country that is authorized to do "In-house" engine overhauls under Warranty!
You have Mail!
BUD
Enthusiast
It would be a big f***ing deal to me. The numbers GOTTA match if you are keeping it for the long run. Make them replace the car. Get a lawyer if you have to. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by onerareviper:
Viperholics,
Who really cares about matching numbers?... I can see in the case of old muscle cars/Corvettes, where they had different engine sizes and Horsepower ratings/specs. But for God sakes, it is going to be the EXACT same motor. Same horsepower. Same everything. Only a different VIN stamping. Whoopdy-f*ckin-dooo.
Better yet, you are getting a BRAND NEW motor. You will have piece-of-mind, knowing it is broken in properly, and not abused unless you are doing the abuse. Who knows what the previous owner really did.... I say get the new motor and be happy!!!
My .02.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Viperholics,
Who really cares about matching numbers?... I can see in the case of old muscle cars/Corvettes, where they had different engine sizes and Horsepower ratings/specs. But for God sakes, it is going to be the EXACT same motor. Same horsepower. Same everything. Only a different VIN stamping. Whoopdy-f*ckin-dooo.
Better yet, you are getting a BRAND NEW motor. You will have piece-of-mind, knowing it is broken in properly, and not abused unless you are doing the abuse. Who knows what the previous owner really did.... I say get the new motor and be happy!!!
My .02.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Viper Wizard
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BUD:
It would be a big f***ing deal to me. The numbers GOTTA match if you are keeping it for the long run. Make them replace the car. Get a lawyer if you have to.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Relax!
![newbie[1].gif](/vca/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fvca1.viperclub.org%2Fubb%2Fsmilies%2Fnewbie%5B1%5D.gif&hash=d23080a513da30e4e851fd8f6c357a1e)
It's a minor problem: Simple fix.
It would be a big f***ing deal to me. The numbers GOTTA match if you are keeping it for the long run. Make them replace the car. Get a lawyer if you have to.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Relax!
It's a minor problem: Simple fix.
You must be registered for see images
RonC
Enthusiast
For crying out loud! Think about this, you have two choices, a "original" gen I Viper with weaping head gaskets, leaking rear crossover gasket, and one shifted cylinder sleeve... OH BOY. Or you can have an updated engine with new gaskets that won't weep etc. etc. etc. (Wait that sounds like my car!)
For those with garage queens who think they will make a mint on there Viper, well good luck. For anyone who has frequented the classic car auctions (i.e. Barrett Jackson), I honestly can't recall one classic that was not somehow rebuilt, repainted, re-whatever. I am sure there are exceptions, but who in their right mind thinks the paint job is going to be pristine in 25 years? And even if it is, the engine gaskets would be long gone, especially if the car sits forever.
Ron
For those with garage queens who think they will make a mint on there Viper, well good luck. For anyone who has frequented the classic car auctions (i.e. Barrett Jackson), I honestly can't recall one classic that was not somehow rebuilt, repainted, re-whatever. I am sure there are exceptions, but who in their right mind thinks the paint job is going to be pristine in 25 years? And even if it is, the engine gaskets would be long gone, especially if the car sits forever.
Ron
BUD
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by onerareviper:
Hey Bud,
Probably a Corvette owner
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ha Ha smart ***. 98 RT/10 is my ride. Not a POORvette
Hey Bud,
Probably a Corvette owner
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ha Ha smart ***. 98 RT/10 is my ride. Not a POORvette
Ocarguy....
Something doesn't quite add up based upon what you are saying. Are you suer this car has no mods to the engine? That code is very prevalent with a particular engine mod. Also, with such a high % leakdown, did they give an indication whether is was coming from the bottom or top end?
Be happy to give you a few suggestions if you are interested... You can reach us at the shop at 408.562.1000 or you can send me an e-mail....
-W
Something doesn't quite add up based upon what you are saying. Are you suer this car has no mods to the engine? That code is very prevalent with a particular engine mod. Also, with such a high % leakdown, did they give an indication whether is was coming from the bottom or top end?
Be happy to give you a few suggestions if you are interested... You can reach us at the shop at 408.562.1000 or you can send me an e-mail....
-W
onerareviper
Enthusiast
Hey Bud,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I plan on selling it to buy a house in 2 years.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably a Corvette owner
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I plan on selling it to buy a house in 2 years.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably a Corvette owner
