DLM Stage 1 vs. Sean Roe

[OutThere]

I do not wish to start any type of war but I am giving serious consideration to putting in a Super-Charger and have pretty much narrowed it down to these two products and tuners.

- Both appear to have A+ reps for quality and service

- The resulting power increase of each would be similar

- DLM - I should expect the car to be gone for 6 months or more
- Sean Roe – Finishing the work on a Gen1 product, avail in approx 4 months

- DLM will cost approx $18,000 installed – no warrantee (not sure)
- Sean Row will cost approx $8,000 installed – 12 month warrantee

I guess the choice looks pretty clear but I must be missing something. What makes the DLM system over 200% better?

It would appear to be the customization but if that is the case, why is the resulting horsepower equal to the DIY product?

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

I know the Roe supercharger is getting very popular for the DIY users. I don't think you could go wrong with Roe's system for cost and ease of installation. From my experience, and if your willing to spend the extra money, DLM has an excellent product too. You cannot compare the two products from a monetary standpoint. The DLM system costs more but you get what you pay for! The DLM supercharger comes with so many parts to enhance the performance of your Viper in various ways and it is a system that belongs on an $80,000 dollar car. Doug was THE FIRST to pioneer supercharging for Gen 1 cars and Gen 2 cars and experience has allowed him to perfect his product and know what it takes to send a car across the Country with an excellent warranty. Expect some down time but a level 1 does not take six months. I think your post is extremely inaccurate without knowing all the facts. The two systems are an extreme contrast from each other.

I hope Doug can chime in and give us some details.

Cheers,
Chuck

 

[OutThere]

What is extremely inaccurate about my post?

The time to complete? It came from Doug but it is from today, meaning he cannot even take the car for 3 months. Not that he would have it for 6 months. Same logic was applied to the Row system. He can do the install in 1 day but the product will not be ready until July and then they'll be a line. So it's not really even a factor.

The power numbers? Comes from posts on here and both web sites.

Price? Again, figures come from posts on here and both web sites.

Warrantee? I put (not sure) on my post. It isn't mentioned on the DLM web site and I am NOT SURE.

Of course you can compare the two products from a monetary standpoint. How else do you compare two competing products after everything I mentioned has been taken into consideration and appears equal?? That's the point.

Look. If all you DLM guys are just going to jump up and down and cry because someone is attempting to learn about this stuff, please do not respond. I do not want to insult anyone. Either choice requires the consideration of a lot of money and I am just using this site for one of its main intentions: To get educated on a topic I know little about.

Please tell me about the many parts that will enhance performance on the DLM supercharger, which apparently are not included in the Roe system, that you mentioned. That's what I am looking for. Someplace there must be $10,000+ worth of parts that are doing something because everything else appears equal to someone who doesn't know the difference, me for instance.

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

My post wasn't intended to be harsh, sorry if it came across that way. I just don't believe you can compare the two systems. Boost is NOT just boost and the same goes for turbocharged motors. Some think 5 pounds of non-intercooled boost is not that much for a V10 Viper engine. That is so untrue. Force inducted engines (especially fuel injected motors) CAN detonate at less than 2 pounds of boost. The are too many details to go into for these reasons. Owning a DLM car for the past three years has made me a firm believer in a DLM system. I've had just about every sports car available and have to say, this is one of the best cars I've ever experienced. I will send Doug an email and hopefully have him chime in for you and give you more accurate details than I can. I would hate to misinform you.

Cheers,
Chuck

 

[Gerald]

This def. sounds like soemones trying to start something..... You really can't compare the two products. Go with the Roe supercharger if you want to throw down about 570 to 580 to the rears. DLM's level I's are consitantly in the 700+rwhp figure. My DLM cars come with a lifetime warranty, you just have to butter Doug up I also have a complete fuel system which makes my car EASILY upgradable and I can also compenstate for bad gas, etc. I've got a intercooler also which flows colder air into the engine which makes my system very efficient. I also do not have an detonation issues, silent or audible. The price is what you work out with Doug. But if price and time are your only objective, then go with Roe's System, I'm sure you'll be happy..
My crank is keyed, I have a bullet proof damper on the car (that alone costs about $600, I've seen the bill)) Roller Rockers, full head work, values, etc, fuel system, intercooler, bracketry, extra pod injectors, STAND ALONE custom computer, no taking out timing that robs horsepower, etc. etc etc etc
If I want 850rwhp or more, I can just send it back to Doug also by remapping the custom computer for a more aggressive fuel curve, turn up the fuel and add some safety features in there to make the motor more bulletproof..


Gerald

 

[Russ M]

Outthere,

I am not an owner of either system, so I have no loyalty to either tuner.

Here are the major differences that I know of on the two systems.

-DLM has a motec fuel management system, the ROE kit has a poor mans idea of fuel/spark control. This is probably the biggest difference between the two kits.

-DLM has a centrifugal type blower vs the roots on the ROE. The DLM blower has potential to make a lot more power with minor mods.

-DLM has an inter cooler, while the ROE cant even be fitted with one since its a top mount roots design.

I am sure there are many more differences, but to me at least these are the major ones.

Now don't get me wrong the ROE kit for the 7k that it costs is by far the best bang for the buck you can get on a viper. And if I had to buy one right now it would probably be the one I get.

 

[OutThere]

I am trying to start something... it's called DIALOG! Sorry, but it is very strange how some of you get when simple, basic questions are asked about a super charger. A guy asks about a floor-jack and gets input from 30 different people in 3 days. Mention that the X SC system isn’t the best thing since E=MC2 and you get treated like you just crapped on someone windshield.

The two products are absolutely, 100% comparable. The DLM website advertises a system called Level 1 for $18,000 and 600 HP. By every account on here the Roe system will be in the same power-range but at 45% of the price. To someone like me, that doesn't know anything about super-chargers, the only major difference I can see is in price and it is huge. If you're telling me that the DLM Level 1 will produce 730 RWHP and includes all the components you mentioned, then I am on board. But I do not believe that is the case.

You have a Level 2 with an intercooler, now there's a situation where you can't compare but I am going to take a guess that you paid considerably more than $18,000 for it and probably 4 times what a Row system would cost.

Do any non-DLM customers have an idea about what differentiates these two competing products?

 

[OutThere]

Thanks Russ! That makes a lot of sense. It's not like I think DLM is cheating anyone, I assume there are differences like you mentioned and I am merely trying to uncover what they are.

Does the Level 1 DLM come with an intercooler for $18,000? Doesn't mention that anyplace.

I wish these guys would put more $$ into better web sites!

 

[RedGTS]

Though I'm sure unintentional, this post is getting really misleading. OutThere, if you haven't already done so, you need to talk to Sean and Doug and have them explain what comes with their system (especially Doug) and the differences they see in comparing one to the other. They're both class guys and neither will knock someone else's product to try to sell you something.

As you already recognized, you aren't going to get an intercooler, and head work, and rockers, etc. in the basic $18k installed system. Nor are you going to get 733 rwhp.

With that said, Doug's 600 hp rating has been proven very understated, and most of the Level 1 Gen. II cars I've seen were in the 630 or so RWhp (not flywheel) range. This is through a stock exhaust system with an otherwise stock engine. To get the basic Roe system in that range (~600 rwhp) you need all the basic bolt-ons like headers, exhaust, rockers, and larger throttle bodies. So Doug's basic system will produce more peak power on a completely stock engine, and is probably easier to upgrade to insane power levels down the road if that's in the cards. BUT, Sean is coming out with an 8 lb high output option soon for the forged piston cars, AND it wouldn't surprise me if a Roe blown car's torque curve (and possibly power curve) was higher than a DLM Level 1 curve up to ~4000 rpm even without the bolt-ons due to the difference between the two types of blowers (twin-screw (NOT roots) v. centrifugal). Twin-screw blowers generally make more torque at low rpm than a comparable centrifugal, while centrifugals generally are more efficient making high hp at high rpm. Clear as mud yet?

So there is an apples to oranges element in trying to compare the two systems, but I bet either one will put a major grin on your face. In my mind, the major differences between the two are cost, wait, and appearance. Doug's system will cost more (even taking bolt-ons into account), and it will take longer to get installed. But it will be a first class custom system installed by an expert. The quality of the Roe system is also excellent, however, and for a setup with a "poor man's" fuel system (I'm sure little old Autorotor would appreciate that) there seems to be a definite lack of exploding engines to report.

Appearance is a personal choice, but it was a major factor in my decision to get a Roe setup. I just like the big polished blower sitting on top of the engine, and I've had the air intake tubes and everything around it chromed. Doug (and Jason Heffner) have done some beautiful work with polished or chromed blowers and intake tubes, but with our clamshell hoods and the blower at the front of the engine, it's a lot harder to see.

So continue to do your research, and most importantly talk to Sean and Doug.

BTW, have you been reading this thread:

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=249128&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

 

[Moundir]

I am not a customer of either shop, and I am in the same boat as you are. The DLM level 1 does come with intercooler and comlete fuel system upgrade. It puts out 6-8lbs of boost and will dyno around 630- 650rwhp with STOCK exaust and manifold. How do I know?? I called and spent over 30mins talking to Doug yesterday
Now the Roe kit on the other hand is $7500 plus say another 1k to install. With a stock exaust and manifolds the kit will put out ~530-560rwhp. With headers, exaust, rockers (5k+ installed) you will yield ~600-620rwhp.
So if you do your math the Roe kit is about 13-14K installed with the bolt ons to yield ~600rwhp, the Dlm is 18k to yield to ~650 with all the bells and whistles. Not so easy anymore is it lol. If you want I can further complicate your disicion by throwing the Heffner system in. It is also intercooled, fuel system upgrade, and runs 10lbs of boost good for over 700RWHP with STOCK exaust and manifold for 15K installed Only problem is that you have to have forged pistons or he wont do any of his kits!!! Good luck. I forgot all 3 have a one year warranty

 

[OutThere]

Wow. I didn't know this was already an open topic (stupid title!).

Thanks guys. This has helped a lot.

 

[Gerald]

Yes, get on that phone man and call Sean and Doug. Both great guys! why are all the good tuners on the east coast?hmmmmmmmmmm

 

[1TONY1]

Why on earth would anyone spend money on a supercharger without having exhaust and headers. Beats me. And before anyone pays $1000 to install a Roe s/c........he!! I would do it free before I charged that much.

 

[Daffy Duck Viper]

Beyond the obvious differences in looks, isn't it true that a major difference between the two systems is that Sean Roe's twin-screw supercharger is better for instant power when you mash the go-pedal for, say, better 0-60 times, and whenever you smash the pedal, whereas Doug Levin's (venturi?) supercharger is not instant power since the supercharger hast to spool up, and so its strength is more in the area of top speed?
-Daffy

 

[jcaspar1]

A lot of confusion out there so be sure and talk to each of the tuners.

"-DLM has a motec fuel management system, the ROE kit has a poor mans idea of fuel/spark control. This is probably the biggest difference between the two kits.- This is true of the VEC 1 but I don't think you can say this of the VEC II which allows easy adjusitng of the air/fuel mixture of different octane, driving styles, altitude etc.

-DLM has a centrifugal type blower vs the roots on the ROE. The DLM blower has potential to make a lot more power with minor mods. True but remember the Roe charger is not a roots style blower.


"-DLM has an inter cooler, while the ROE cant even be fitted with one since its a top mount roots design."- Not true. Definately a little more difficult to do an intercooler with a screw blower but has been done both air/air and air/liquid.

You can't go wrong with either one. A huge selling point to me on the Roe supercharger is that I get to install it myself. For me, half or often more than half of the fun is the installation.

 

[Dr Roof]

Outthere

Get a list a gen 1 cars from doug with a level one package and see what they say. Also i know that Dan Black car is stock with the exception of the blower. (Level One) and is quoted in mustang and fast fords magazine as the fastest true street car! So keep searching and take a ride in a sean roe car as well as a DLM and you will definetely see the difference.

The real question is how much power do you really want? Witht the DLM system you can always add alot more. Sean Roe although a great product on Gen 2 cars is limited. and is not yet proven on Gen 1 cars.

Bag for the Buck - Sean Roe
More power, Upgradable, Proven realibility for many years, Awesome customer service - DLM SYSTEM

 

[1TONY1]

So keep searching and take a ride in a sean roe car as well as a DLM and you will definetely see the difference.

But which car will be out front ?

 

[Dr Roof]

Tony

I am working on a event in Bowling Green so i guess we can really find out then.

Both add tremendous performance.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Sounds less like a tuner war and more like a centrifugal vs roots/twin screw debate.

I am a DLM customer, but in the past I've used BOTH types of superchargers.

Here's the vendor-neutral scoop (and do a search in the archives for some of this info as well):

- Twin screw systems are at max boost at 2k RPM, Centrifugal increases w/ RPM

- Twin screw is more low-end tq up front, but less top-end, where centrifugal is more high-end.

- Racing, 2 cars side-by-side w/ twin screw on the left and centrifugal on the right, the twin screw will get off the line quicker (if traction issues are EQUAL), though the centrifugal will beat 'em by several lengths at the end of the track. The twin-screw has greater potential for traction problems, though, due to GOBS of low-end tq.

- In a smaller motor, a twin screw makes a small-block motor feel like a big-block. I haven't driven one in a viper, but I feel like the viper has enough low-end power as-it to warrant a linear boost increase vs a flat boost.

- Look in the DYNO section about graphs. You can see where the power comes on in one setup vs. the other. I also have a dyno graph from an early DLM stage 1 w/ IC on a gen II and can send that to you for comparison.

- As a general rule, the centrifugal makes MORE top-end power, but less bottom-end.

- The exception to my racing comment is if 1TONY1 is in the left lane... he's an exceptional driver and that gives him a competitive advantage.

- Both Roe and DLM do excellent work. Tony's also installed 2 ROE set-ups and they are sharp as can be. There _were_ some Gen II hiccups w/ the roll-out, so one can expect a few hiccups w/ the gen I roll-out as well. DLM's been doing them a bit longer.

- My DLM setup has been warrantied from day one (and I'm into year 3). It isn't an issue of an on-paper warrantee, but more DLM's reputation on the line. Do you think he's going to let even a single viper owner go unhappy? Search the archives and you won't find anyone unhappy.

- Sean is also a standup guy. I'd be willing to bet that if someone had a problem w/ their car 14 months after installation that's he'd make it right as well.

So which would I go with? Tough call. Money being no object, you get more power-potential w/ a centrifugal set-up. But not everyone wants a 700-1000hp beast.

But I do.



If I can be of further assistance, please let me know!

JD

 

[1TONY1]

I was just trying to stir you guys up....Joseph and Roof.....Thank you for being nice to me I figured someone would pop up with a 70-150 race. While 900 hp will shine anywhere.....70 and up has got to be nasty !! After Joseph makes a pass with his upgrades and new sticky tires we are going to need a stright jacket to restrain him.
I see no lag at all in my centrifical s/c car, who starts a race at less than 3000 rpm ?
OutThere....where are you located......why must we ask that question. I see many that don't even post their state.

 

[MaxedGTS]

i asked Doug about selling his level 1 in a kit version and heres what he said.
(Please don't quote me word for word.) Doug said EVERY sc system on a viper detonates when they just tried bolting on a kit with stock compression.
He was afraid he would sell a kit and without the installer spending the time to properly tune the car it will for sure detonate! (my thoughts) --> and this is a centrifugal not a twin screw, the twin produces more heat and can detonate more easily.
He said it's not if, but when the car enigne will suffer from detonation and the engine will dissintegrate in time. He said the customer won't know if the car is detonating by just bolting on a kit. Detonation is a silent killer, you can't always here it and thats why they do extensive dataloging to insure against it. He want's every system professionally installed with a keyed crank shaft and tuned properly to insure the system is perfect.

Heres something i don't understand? this is NOT a flame because i think Roe Racing is top notch.But why don't Roe customers post dyno sheets with a/f ????

Max

 

[J DAWG]

JD.
Thanks for the info. I was curious when each S/C setup made boost.

 

[Joseph Dell]

No problemo.

I'd love to overlay a twin screw dyno sheet over a centrifugal dyno sheet. Anyone got the gumption to do it? Or if someone sends me (or points me to) a twin-screw set-up, I'll overlay an earlier graph from my [comperable at the time] Level 1 DLM set-up.

I'll make this my project...

JD

 

[J DAWG]

JD

I have posted several graphs here. 1 is the Roes sc and several DLM and Heffner graphs.

Dyno graphs

 

[1TONY1]

Heres something i don't understand? this is NOT a flame because i think Roe Racing is top notch.But why don't Roe customers post dyno sheets with a/f ????

Max

I have only seen one or two dyno sheets except for Seans. We have not had years to dyno our cars. Maybe one of those guys have the a/f sheet. Remember unless you pay extra they don't just do the a/f. I was going to dyno today but wasn't going to spend more for a/f from them. Also there are Roe s/c cars that are North and are not even being driven due to weather. When they do a/f, unless you have a **** for it to go in it will not be accurate just sticking it in the tail pipe if you have cats on. I have a wide band in my car, after the vec2 it is dead on 11.6 a/f at full throttle. At cruise the long term fuel trim is 0%...meaning cruise a/f is exactly what the factory pcm/02 is wanting to see. I can log the 02 and post it if any one wants to see it.
Also, Its great to have a tuner do your car and make it right but I don't think Procharger, Vortech, Paxton would still be in business if they didn't do diy kits......and we are talking thousands and thousands of non tuner installed
kits. Sure some vehicles have knock sensors to retard timing but if you have a real problem it still won't last long.

 

[MaxedGTS]

[/QUOTE]

We have not had years to dyno our cars. Maybe one of those guys have the a/f sheet. Remember unless you pay extra they don't just do the a/f. I was going to dyno today but wasn't going to spend more for a/f from them.

[/QUOTE]Thats exactly my point. I'm not knocking the Roe system,just SOME OF US WOULD LIKE TO PAY for a system that HAS been tested for years AND professionally installed, especialy if its bolted on a $75,000 dollar car! I'm only bringing this up for comparative reasons because people are trying to compare both tuners systems???

Max

 

[1TONY1]

Why is there a question if that's your requirements ? No problem here. Its not rocket science, if you want a system that HAS been tested for years then why the debate. (You do know how long the Roe s/c has been out...right?)
ps I guess it doesn't matter on my pos since it only cost $40,000. ($75,000 but its STILL just a Dodge) By the way.....what is your best 1/4 mile time and mph ?

 

[Gerald]

edit

 

[TomMiriViper]

Why is there a question if that's your requirements ? No problem here. Its not rocket science, if you want a system that HAS been tested for years then why the debate. (You do know how long the Roe s/c has been out...right?)
ps I guess it doesn't matter on my pos since it only cost $40,000. ($75,000 but its STILL just a Dodge) By the way.....what is your best 1/4 mile time and mph ?

Bite your tongue!

You guys are killing me

Tom

 

[Sean Roe]

Hi Guys,

If you want to compare apples to apples, you have to compare the same boost figures on engines with the same mods. I've sent the information JD needs to make a graph comparing our twin screw blower to his centrifugal blower. His DLM kit was not intercooled and neither is ours. Since JD's was at 8 or 9psi, I sent him the numbers from ours at 5 and 8 psi, along with the bolt on parts the car had. It should make for an interesting comparison.

Beyond that, comparisons become more apples to oranges, since DLM's cars are custom built and I doubt there are too many that are alike. I remember when I had Scott Patrick's car here just about 2 years ago. At the time, it was DLM's latest and greatest, but it didn't have an intercooler and had a very basic engine management system. Six months later, Gerald's was the high water mark and today it's Treynor's.

Just like Doug, I'll continue to develop more parts for our SC kit and continue to push up the efficiency and power outputs. It's what guys like Doug, Jason and myself do. Just be glad that today you have choices

Sean

www.RoeRacing.com