I have been kicking the tires on a Viper for a while. The early Gen 2 cars are available for pretty good prices. For a street only car does anyone regret not holding out for the ABS models? I know compared to ABS models the stopping difference from high speeds is huge but I honesty can't remember the last time I had to lockem up at 150mph. Part two of the question is if you get into mods like FI, does the car then become skittish without the extra stopping power?
How important is ABS to you? Worth the extra $ for an 01-02?
- Thread starter Nuck
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GTS Bruce
Enthusiast
01 and 02 are the last and most perfected of their line.Better fit,finish.NO frame problems.Flat spotting fronts tend to be a problem w/o abs and I am not a fan of abs.However 01 and 02 have stronger rear bias with the abs as well as shortening distances preventing you from looking like an idiot.Of course brakes are the weak points of all gen 2 cars except for frames pre 01 and 02.Stop tech big brake solves the brake problems and there is a frame recall for the earlier cars. GTS Bruce
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Where there's a will, there's a way. If it's the brakes keeping you from a Gen2 (or Gen 1) here's another way to keep them from being the weak point. Midway down is a link to further information.
DodgeViper01
Enthusiast
ABS is DEFINITLY worth it. I have had a few close calls but crazy drivers and I am glad that I had it.
Vic
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At WillowSprings, I come down the front straight at about 135mph, and brake hard for Turn 1. I'm almost standing on the brake pedal, and the front end is diving hard. The rear end comes up, and the car feels a bit squirmy, but even at that point, the ABS hasn't kicked in yet. So it would seem that you don't need ABS, if you threshold brake.
But as has been said above, my 01 car has different (Larger) rear piston size, gives it more rear bias. From that perspective, I'd say a pre-01 car might not brake just like mine does. I have to admit I've never braked hard in a non-ABS Viper. So the answer is either get an ABS car, or get new rear calipers for your pre-01 car. From Tom, I think! Thats the lowest cost fix. Then there are always the upgrades from Stop Tech, etc, if you wanna spend some money. The "front only" Stop Tech kit just reduces the front bias, and in that way, balances the front and rear bias, but sacrifices stopping force to do it. I'm not sure, but I think the 4-wheel Stop Tech kit has all-new piston diameters, that doesn't sacrifice stopping power to achieve front-to-rear balance. I could be wrong, better to ask Stop Tech yourself.
Its not likely that any Gen2 Viper could lock up the wheels at 150mph, there just isn't that much stopping force available.
But as has been said above, my 01 car has different (Larger) rear piston size, gives it more rear bias. From that perspective, I'd say a pre-01 car might not brake just like mine does. I have to admit I've never braked hard in a non-ABS Viper. So the answer is either get an ABS car, or get new rear calipers for your pre-01 car. From Tom, I think! Thats the lowest cost fix. Then there are always the upgrades from Stop Tech, etc, if you wanna spend some money. The "front only" Stop Tech kit just reduces the front bias, and in that way, balances the front and rear bias, but sacrifices stopping force to do it. I'm not sure, but I think the 4-wheel Stop Tech kit has all-new piston diameters, that doesn't sacrifice stopping power to achieve front-to-rear balance. I could be wrong, better to ask Stop Tech yourself.
Its not likely that any Gen2 Viper could lock up the wheels at 150mph, there just isn't that much stopping force available.
I just heard something in the news media in the last day or two about how many thousands of lives ABS and anti-skid directional controls have saved per year.
You don't need to be going 150mph to get the benefits of ABS...
You don't need to be going 150mph to get the benefits of ABS...
DynoDaddy
Viper Owner
I wish I had it so I did not have to install all of these stupid sensors to get my traction control to work...
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
Without a Doubt !! ABS !! I have driven both ABS and NON ABS Vipers, and unless your wanting to risk flat spoting tires, or enjoy the embarasment of skidding when you have gone way too fast, for the short distance you have left to stop, then by all means, dont get abs. I drive agressively on the street and track, and while I have probalby only implemented my abs about (5-10 times on the track) and 5-10 times on the street in 2+ years of ownership, without a doubt, it has saved me enough to warrrant its cost/value !!
Jon
Jon
Hirohawa
Enthusiast
Is the brake feel better on the pedals of the ABS cars?
Achilles99
Enthusiast
Having owned two non-ABS Vipers and one ABS Viper, I can say WITHOUT A DOUBT that ABS is a good thing!
You cannot threshold brake a pre-ABS Viper as well as one with ABS, because of the reasons mentioned above (more rear bias on ABS Vipers). I've driven with Tom's modded rear calipers (both on the street and autox), and I can say that it is certainly a huge step up from stock. But, it can't compare with having ABS (which is reasonable, considering that's Tom's mod is around $600, and adding ABS would cost $7000 or more).
I agree with Vic... on the ABS Vipers, you can stand on the brakes harder without having them lock up as compared to non-ABS. Best case scenario would probably be a Stoptech kit on an ABS Viper.
As for Hiro's question, it's hard to say... modulating is probably easier on ABS Vipers, simply because it takes longer for them to lock up.
You cannot threshold brake a pre-ABS Viper as well as one with ABS, because of the reasons mentioned above (more rear bias on ABS Vipers). I've driven with Tom's modded rear calipers (both on the street and autox), and I can say that it is certainly a huge step up from stock. But, it can't compare with having ABS (which is reasonable, considering that's Tom's mod is around $600, and adding ABS would cost $7000 or more).
I agree with Vic... on the ABS Vipers, you can stand on the brakes harder without having them lock up as compared to non-ABS. Best case scenario would probably be a Stoptech kit on an ABS Viper.
As for Hiro's question, it's hard to say... modulating is probably easier on ABS Vipers, simply because it takes longer for them to lock up.
LIRacer
Viper Owner
ABS is great, in MHO. But don't let a good non ABS car go. I drive agrresively on the street and I am an SCCA Nationally Rated driver. I have driven Spec Class Cars and GT-2. None have ABS and I haven't hit a wall yet (well not from not having ABS). ABS isn't going to stop you faster. Better brake bias will. You can install break bias into a pre '01 car. A good driver is a good driver.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
No doubt ABS makes a safer driver.
For the track I feel it gets dangerously close to crossing the technological line that reduces the need for driver skill.
For the track I feel it gets dangerously close to crossing the technological line that reduces the need for driver skill.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
So Chuck what are you trying to say...... ABS is for idiots of the road coursing world.
Cudaman
Troublemaker.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
ABS isn't idiot proof:
"In a study of crash records the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that ABS cars had more single-vehicle, run-off-the-road crashes than cars without ABS," Willis says. "The cars without ABS had more crashes with other vehicles, pedestrians, and cyclists." For this reason, automobile insurers such as USAA and Allstate have announced that discounts for ABS equipped vehicles will cease. Research shows no substantial difference in claims between vehicles equipped with ABS and those without.
Full story at http://www.smartmotorist.com/abs/abs.htm
And here's a little surprising contradiction:
When the crash statistics were tabulated, they reflected a stunning reversal. The number of cars involved in off-road crashes actually increased with the deployment of ABS technology. Safety experts postulated that drivers became overconfident with the assumption that ABS would protect them.
Full story at http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=20350
And finally,
ABS significantly reduced multivehicle crashes on wet roads: fatal crashes by 24 percent, and nonfatal crashes by 14 percent. Fatal collisions with pedestrians and bicyclists were down a significant 27 percent. However, these reductions were offset by statistically significant increases in single vehicle, run-off-road crashes (rollovers or impacts with fixed objects). Fatal run-off-road crashes were up by 28 percent, and nonfatal crashes by 19 percent in the ABS-equipped cars, as compared to similar cars without ABS.
From a dated NHTSA report at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/EP2004Summaries.html
"In a study of crash records the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that ABS cars had more single-vehicle, run-off-the-road crashes than cars without ABS," Willis says. "The cars without ABS had more crashes with other vehicles, pedestrians, and cyclists." For this reason, automobile insurers such as USAA and Allstate have announced that discounts for ABS equipped vehicles will cease. Research shows no substantial difference in claims between vehicles equipped with ABS and those without.
Full story at http://www.smartmotorist.com/abs/abs.htm
And here's a little surprising contradiction:
When the crash statistics were tabulated, they reflected a stunning reversal. The number of cars involved in off-road crashes actually increased with the deployment of ABS technology. Safety experts postulated that drivers became overconfident with the assumption that ABS would protect them.
Full story at http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=20350
And finally,
ABS significantly reduced multivehicle crashes on wet roads: fatal crashes by 24 percent, and nonfatal crashes by 14 percent. Fatal collisions with pedestrians and bicyclists were down a significant 27 percent. However, these reductions were offset by statistically significant increases in single vehicle, run-off-road crashes (rollovers or impacts with fixed objects). Fatal run-off-road crashes were up by 28 percent, and nonfatal crashes by 19 percent in the ABS-equipped cars, as compared to similar cars without ABS.
From a dated NHTSA report at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/EP2004Summaries.html
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
hmmm.. kinda reminds me of all the pharmaceutical drugs that are tested, re tested, studies done, are proclaimed safe and then after 100 people die from the drug, they take it off the shelf and get sued for millions. Sorry, I'll go with my real world experience over what a bunch of idiots who OVER-TURN their original findings say. ABS works, and works well in my experience.
PS. Add to the fact, that more and more cars are coming out with ABS, leads ya to maybe believe there is something to it?
How about the Enzo ? Carrerra GT ?, Ford GT ?, Merc SLR?, Merc SL65?, C6 z06 ? hmm wondering.. oh yeah.. they have ABS too.... nah.. all the R&D on those cars was probably a shambles too...
Jon
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
I didn't mean to say it doesn't work and work well, just trying to egg on Chuck.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
LOL Bastage.
The stats are logical. ABS allows a driver to turn while braking. So naturally they are going to miss the car in front of them but will end up jumping the curb or in a ditch.
I remember ABS kicking in on my truck a couple times, once when a car in front stopped short and once when a semi pulled in front of me. Each time I thought "Well, no need to threshold brake, just lay on 'em." Although the time the semi pulled across the front of me I was pulling my trailer and really didn't know what the outcome was going to be. Close call.
IEATVETS
Enthusiast
Would give me a false sense of security. "Oh, I have ABS I can drive 100mph and not worry about anything." I trust my driving skills enough but it is the other people on the road I worry about. I will stick with what I have, a Gen1. It may not be the Viper of choice for some but it will be the only Viper I will ever own.
AG98RT10
Viper Owner
Just another plug for Tom's Incyte Technology rear caliper fix for the non-ABS Gen II's. It really is a very cost-effective way to dramatically improve braking ability and feel that inspires a lot of confidence in my driving, both casual and track.
I went from a very scary braking car to (after I added Tom's rear calipers, Stoptech Slotted rotors and SS lines, and Brakeman 3 pads) one that I know will stop when I need it to. I haven't missed the ABS yet. It would be nice to have, but rather than spend all that to get it, I'd probably trade up to an SRT-10, which has world class ABS brakes (much better than Gen II).
I went from a very scary braking car to (after I added Tom's rear calipers, Stoptech Slotted rotors and SS lines, and Brakeman 3 pads) one that I know will stop when I need it to. I haven't missed the ABS yet. It would be nice to have, but rather than spend all that to get it, I'd probably trade up to an SRT-10, which has world class ABS brakes (much better than Gen II).
Vic
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I had heard that some inexperienced drivers get scared when they feel the pulsing in the brake pedal, then they take their foot off the brake, or pump it, thinking something awful was going on with their brakes. This makes them fail to slow down in time, and they end up braking less quickly than they would if they were in a non-ABS vehicle. I think that was actually a finding,. or maybe a hunch? from an investigator who was reviewing the crash statistics.
Andrew/USPWR
Enthusiast
Wish I had it.
I sided with the Steel Gray color only available in 2000 than a 01/02 car with ABS. Looking for a used ABS set to put on now.
2000 GTS Steel Grey
6 piston Baer claws up front, Front brakes in back, Quaife differential, GKH half shafts,
Alloy fly wheel, Short throw shifter, Polished aluminum intakes, K&N air filters,
Optima battery, Sterling silver ignition key, ACR 5 point harnesses.
I sided with the Steel Gray color only available in 2000 than a 01/02 car with ABS. Looking for a used ABS set to put on now.
2000 GTS Steel Grey
6 piston Baer claws up front, Front brakes in back, Quaife differential, GKH half shafts,
Alloy fly wheel, Short throw shifter, Polished aluminum intakes, K&N air filters,
Optima battery, Sterling silver ignition key, ACR 5 point harnesses.
ABS is a definite if you're concerned about resale, but on the road I'd prefer non - mainly because they're less maintenance and more predictable.
Course I'd be lying if I said I didn't occasionally wish for it when out playing in the rain and snow though.
Course I'd be lying if I said I didn't occasionally wish for it when out playing in the rain and snow though.
Achilles99
Enthusiast
I said the same thing, until I got ABS. I've only had it kick in a couple of times, but that's enough for me
! Let's not forget the better brake bias you get with an ABS car (due to larger rear pistons), too.Good points:
One thing that has come up at track events is how do you lock up your tires if you are losing it - ie - standard procedure if you losing it is to push your brake to lock up and slide to a stop.
Purpose is to avoid a spin and to prevent the wheels suddenly turning (ie ABS releases) thereby shooting you back into harms way (t-bone!).
Can you shut off your ABS for track days? I think i heard you can remove the fuse - is that correct?
One thing that has come up at track events is how do you lock up your tires if you are losing it - ie - standard procedure if you losing it is to push your brake to lock up and slide to a stop.
Purpose is to avoid a spin and to prevent the wheels suddenly turning (ie ABS releases) thereby shooting you back into harms way (t-bone!).
Can you shut off your ABS for track days? I think i heard you can remove the fuse - is that correct?
Toby
Enthusiast
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Janni
Enthusiast
Those that have driven both stock ABS vs non-ABS cars on the track prefer the ABS cars - remember you won't use the ABS at every turn, but you WILL use the dynamic proportioning of the later cars and get more rear brake to help shorten stopping distances. it is NOT recommended to go balls out into a corner and jam on the brakes waiting for ABS to save you cajones. However, the once a lap that you use it, it will allow you to steer and brake in a much more controlled manner.
I've not driven the Hayden car with the larger rear caliper - and although it's better than stock 1996-2000, it cna't compete with dynamic proportioning. It makes for faster lap times - that's why it's on the car - they had to convince Herb Helbig that it was helpful in that respect or else it wouldn't have been added.
If I had it to do over, I'd definitely go with ABS for a track car. And would be helpful on the street for a panic situation.
I've not driven the Hayden car with the larger rear caliper - and although it's better than stock 1996-2000, it cna't compete with dynamic proportioning. It makes for faster lap times - that's why it's on the car - they had to convince Herb Helbig that it was helpful in that respect or else it wouldn't have been added.
If I had it to do over, I'd definitely go with ABS for a track car. And would be helpful on the street for a panic situation.
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