How to bend Viper's frame:

[madman]

How to bend Viper\'s frame:

1. take off the rear bumper
2. put a metal rod into one of the rear frame extensions (holds the bumper and trunk)
3. pull

You might remember that in one of my earlier posts I was referring to 'softness' of excentric stops on the frame. This time I was stunned by how soft is the frame itself. One would think that 3"x2" metal bars would hold. Nope, not even remotely.

Happy and careful driving.

 

[JB/SRT]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Just be glad it is not aluminum, like some.

Here's another test for you Madman.

1. get a hammer
2. raise it above the windshield
3. hit the windshield with the hammer

If it doesn't break, the windshield passes the test. If it does, call your insurance company and explain a madman broke your glass.

Happy testing.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Just be glad it is not aluminum, like some.

Here's another test for you Madman.

1. get a hammer
2. raise it above the windshield
3. hit the windshield with the hammer

If it doesn't break, the windshield passes the test. If it does, call your insurance company and explain a madman broke your glass.

Happy testing.

LOL

I'm no engineer but I think it's the design of the frame that makes it so rigid and not the strength of the steel. Something to do with angles and stuff.

 

[Warfang]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

1. take off the rear bumper
2. put a metal rod into one of the rear frame extensions (holds the bumper and trunk)
3. pull

You might remember that in one of my earlier posts I was referring to 'softness' of excentric stops on the frame. This time I was stunned by how soft is the frame itself. One would think that 3"x2" metal bars would hold. Nope, not even remotely.

Happy and careful driving.

Try cutting off a 2 ft section of the frame, and hold it with you hands on the ends. Now squeeze it like an accordian. Keep trying. If you can get it to squeeze in, come back and tell us how weak the frame is.

 

[Flexx91]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

1. take off the rear bumper
2. put a metal rod into one of the rear frame extensions (holds the bumper and trunk)
3. pull

You might remember that in one of my earlier posts I was referring to 'softness' of excentric stops on the frame. This time I was stunned by how soft is the frame itself. One would think that 3"x2" metal bars would hold. Nope, not even remotely.

Happy and careful driving.

Ok... what's your point? How much force (and yes, I am a mechanical engineer)? What the hell is "excentric"?

 

[Janni]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Congratulations - you found the crumple zones. The rear frame horns are designed to bend, collapse, deform - whatever - BEFORE you hit the suspension pickup points. There are holes, bends, diples and other weak points. strong points designed into the frame to specifically control all these actions.

Absorbing the imapct and dissipating energy is why you can bend the frame horns. Note - you are not messing with any of the key suspension points when you do this - you are only messing with the part that hangs the body, etc. And you can't move ANYTHING that is around the driver cockpit.

I've had Gen IIs and Gen III's apart and seen enough carnage to know that the frames are 1) strong and 2) well designed to protect the important stuff.

 

[madman]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

some of the responses are so funny... did I hurt your feelings children?

Flex, the force was equal to one arm of a man visiting gym time to time. For 'excentric' refer to this thread. Let's just say that it is challenging to set the alignment with stops like these.

Janni - did you see these rear horns ever? There are no holes, bends or dipples. Just solid metal. I dare to say these horns were not designed as a crumple zone.

What I want to say is that the characteristics of the metal used on Viper frames caught me by surprise. Especially excentric bolts stops ****. Ant it looks that the rest of the frame is made using the same type of soft metal. Which might be intentional to absorb the stress - I don't know, perhaps frame designers would answer this better. Although the stops should be designed differently if this is the case.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Hey Sadman,

Fortunately it doesn’t take a lot of force to sign over your car to a dealership and pick up a corvette. Seems you have just the intellect required (or lack there of) for such a powerful task.

Bye!

Jon

 

[madman]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

another child came up... why would you think that I don't like Viper?

 

[ViperGTS]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Post some pictures of what you are talking about!

A picture says more than 1000 words...and I know from experience (c-r-a-s-h) that the frame is very well designed.

 

[madman]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

I am referring to right rear horn. Can swing it left and right. I don't question that it can be swung. I question that it can be done using such small force.

 

[Kenny]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Janni - did you see these rear horns ever? There are no holes, bends or dipples. Just solid metal. I dare to say these horns were not designed as a crumple zone.

Mentalman, just so you know how stupid you sound right now---Janni Cone and here husband campaign a Comp Coupe in the VRL and she is VERY familiar with the car. And she's right, it's intended to be a crumple zone.

 

[zorroespanol]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Ever see the engineering students build a bridge out of toothpicks that'll stand 150 lbs pressue?? Same thing, physics!

 

[madman]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

This is becoming entertaining. So many aggressive rednecks around, right 'Kenny_the_penni.'? Janni mentioned holes, bends, dipples... ehmm I don't see these. Yes, you can find holes, bends and dipples in front crumple zones of non-frame based cars but you won't find them in the back of Viper.

Zorro, there are numbers of types metals used for tubing production. Some of them are used for bicycles, some of them to build bridges. I don't thikn I could bend bicycle forks that easy as I could bend these rear forks on viper. I am thinking DC's supplier is getting the tubes from some cheap chinese or indian vendor (china and india are the biggest steel vendors in the world in case you didn't know).

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

May I ask why in the hell you were doing this anyway?

The only reason I can see is if the frame was ALREADY bent, and you were trying to bend it back. If thats the case.... you have a rail that has already been compromised- of course it is going to appear "soft" compared to a new rail.

I dont know what you are seeing... but I have wrecked SRT's here RIGHT NOW. I can stand on the end of the upper frome rails with nothing attached to them. Does it bend? nope. Hell, it took EVERYTHING I had with a 5' bar to pull the upper corner rail away from the radiator so I could get it out. Soft? Not in my experience.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Whatever the issue is, it hasn't hurt performance any.

 

[twinturbo3150]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

This is becoming entertaining. So many aggressive rednecks around, right 'Kenny_the_penni.'? Janni mentioned holes, bends, dipples... ehmm I don't see these. Yes, you can find holes, bends and dipples in front crumple zones of non-frame based cars but you won't find them in the back of Viper.

Zorro, there are numbers of types metals used for tubing production. Some of them are used for bicycles, some of them to build bridges. I don't thikn I could bend bicycle forks that easy as I could bend these rear forks on viper. I am thinking DC's supplier is getting the tubes from some cheap chinese or indian vendor (china and india are the biggest steel vendors in the world in case you didn't know).

all this talk about holes,bends, dipples, tubes and so on, has got me thinking!!! does anybody have any ****?

 

[Vic]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Geez, its not like he attacked the Viper, he just remarked how the frame seems soft in some areas. THats not news that should cause any distress or result in name calling, we all know the tubing is very thin wall. Again, this isn't a bad thing. Its the sum total of the design, material applied in just the right way, that gives it its strength. Whats important is how the frame resists twisting when the suspension is compressed. Thin wall designs can be very strong if the force is applied at the right angles- For example, take an egg, (a very thin shell), hold it between your palms the long way, and try to crush it by applying the force from end to end. It takes more force to crush it than it seems it should take, since its so easy to break when cracked on the wide side, like on the edge of the table. Thats an example of how thin wall tubing, when done right, can provide a very stiff frame. Computer modeling helps engineers use only as much metal as neccessary in strategic places. Anything more than that is a waste, and makes a heavy pig of a car.

And they sure did a great job, as Vipers have extremely stiff torsional and beaming rates. Whats so bad about noticing the thin wall tubing? Is that tantamount to an attack on our manhood? Must be a case of "internet overrection".

 

[JB/SRT]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Madman, would you really expect to be taken seriously with such a nebulous and "off the wall" post? At minimum, your post was ill conceived and presented, since no one really knows what point you make.

OK, maybe this is simply a communications issue, and you are seeking some kind of assistance. Has your Viper been wrecked? Is there a particular reason to have the rear bumper off, other than your strangely curious destructive testing? Did you buy the car new? Describe the scenario more concisely and if there are any safety issues someone here would certainly be able to answer your questions.

Otherwise, if you simply do not understand the mechanical theories that go into building a car, this may not be the forum for your education. One fact you should understand though, is that the rigidity of a car is based on the assembled unit, not on any one component. For instance, the coupe is more rigid than the vert simply because it has a welded top, and I am fairly confident they have the same frame.

Madman, should it be the case that your car is wrecked, for your our safety, get it professionally repaired and stop toying with it.

 

[RoosterBooster]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

This is becoming entertaining. So many aggressive rednecks around, right 'Kenny_the_penni.'? Janni mentioned holes, bends, dipples... ehmm I don't see these. Yes, you can find holes, bends and dipples in front crumple zones of non-frame based cars but you won't find them in the back of Viper.

Zorro, there are numbers of types metals used for tubing production. Some of them are used for bicycles, some of them to build bridges. I don't thikn I could bend bicycle forks that easy as I could bend these rear forks on viper. I am thinking DC's supplier is getting the tubes from some cheap chinese or indian vendor (china and india are the biggest steel vendors in the world in case you didn't know).

madman
it looks like some guys take your "shiat stirring" a little too serious

i`m not a Viper expert but by looking at that drawing i have to say that important things like the rear A-arm mounting points look very strong and are nicely cross-braced. i`m also fairly sure that the engineers at Dodge didnt sleep when they designed the frame.
on the other hand Dodge has to make a profit so everything is usualy designed to do his intended use and nothing more. i guess the time of grossly overbuild cars is over

btw
my background is designing and building very radical off-road cars; its needles to say that the viper frame was never designed for that and would fall apart quickly under the loads that you see there.
but on the other hand your chance to survive a "being rearended" crash in a "soft"(absorbing) street car frame (or unibody) is a lot bigger then in a "stiff" off-road frame.
i build cars out of "soft"p) and fairly thin DOM (drawn over mandrel) steel tubing (1.75" x .095"....same material as a Nascar cage) one tube by itself would be too flexible...the trick for a strong frame is triangulation: "spreading" the load

 

[Warfang]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

This is becoming entertaining. So many aggressive rednecks around, right 'Kenny_the_penni.'? Janni mentioned holes, bends, dipples... ehmm I don't see these. Yes, you can find holes, bends and dipples in front crumple zones of non-frame based cars but you won't find them in the back of Viper.

Zorro, there are numbers of types metals used for tubing production. Some of them are used for bicycles, some of them to build bridges. I don't thikn I could bend bicycle forks that easy as I could bend these rear forks on viper. I am thinking DC's supplier is getting the tubes from some cheap chinese or indian vendor (china and india are the biggest steel vendors in the world in case you didn't know).

Yeah... every piece of eurotrash thinks we're all rednecks.

It's a good thing the Viper was built in good the good ol CZ... oh yeah, it isn't.

Sounds to me like someone is trying to fish around for lawsuit ammo...

 

[madman]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Dan, JB, Rooster: further pics and notes in this thread. When I hit the rail by my left back going backward the left horn end got bent. Worked nicely as it should have to absorb the impact. The bumper support carried some forces to the right horn which at first seemed unchanged and looked perfectly straight. Later when we were putting the bumper support back we found out that the right horn end was about an inch off to the right. Applying gradual force and using bare hands we were able to position the end that inch back to the left and everything fits great. Seeing the diagram above I think we must have bent rear horn where it connects the cage, not just some crumpled end of it. And this caught me by surprise. I was expecting little more resistance.

This together with my experience with the excentric bolts stops and other frame bents I got from factory (I guess my frame fell of the truck leads me to conclusion, that the metal used on viper frame is a soft one. Which has advantages in case of stress absorption, repairs (no need for special weld environment unlike in case of CroMoly alloys) etc. but also disadvantages when the metal quality is not factored into some parts of the frame design such as excentric bolts stops. And perhaps while the frame cage is stiff the back and rear horns are not because they lack supporting arms. So one may end up with a greater body distorsion after a moderate impact then one could anticipate based on all clutter about viper's frame rigidity. Knowing this one could drive extra carefuly in order to avoid even small collisions. (Hmm, this thread helps driver's safety, doesn't it

To Warfang: As for Eurotrash - for nearly a decade I lived and still maintain a home close to where you live and that is Evergreen Hills in San Jose. I didn't meet grownups who would attack me based on a different opinion. Yes, I saw children fighting over the portion of icecream or crying when they took their toy away. Pretty much like some rednecks here.

 

[viper spray]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Can you post a video of you bending your Viper frame??

 

[peakcompletions]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

Can you post a video of you bending your Viper frame??

I would like to see that as well as the windshield test.

 

[Warfang]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

To Warfang: As for Eurotrash - for nearly a decade I lived and still maintain a home close to where you live and that is Evergreen Hills in San Jose. I didn't meet grownups who would attack me based on a different opinion.

Yet you have no problems attacking others for their opinions. Yes ***, that kettle sure is black.

If this was indeed a good samaritan move on your part, why the leading subject? Why the dramatic in presenting what you did? Why never a mention of safety until you're called on it? Why would you even DO what you did without reason?

Sounds like baiting for attention to me.

 

[zorroespanol]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

I sell steel from China so yes, I do know

This is becoming entertaining. So many aggressive rednecks around, right 'Kenny_the_penni.'? Janni mentioned holes, bends, dipples... ehmm I don't see these. Yes, you can find holes, bends and dipples in front crumple zones of non-frame based cars but you won't find them in the back of Viper.

Zorro, there are numbers of types metals used for tubing production. Some of them are used for bicycles, some of them to build bridges. I don't thikn I could bend bicycle forks that easy as I could bend these rear forks on viper. I am thinking DC's supplier is getting the tubes from some cheap chinese or indian vendor (china and india are the biggest steel vendors in the world in case you didn't know).

 

[Janni]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

#1 - there are crumple zones designed into the upper frame horns. Our car was sent back to Rousch Racing and they cut off the upper horn and replaced. There are little hash marks on the frame if I recall and whatever there is - holes, dimples, etc, it's designed to deform there. I am pretty familiar with the Viper frame.

#2 - your car WAS ALREADY HIT so the frame integrity was already weakened. Metal has fatigue issues - since it was bent once, it would take even less force than "normal" to bend it back the other way - ESPECIALLY in the area of a crumple zone. A proper repair would have involved cutting off the bent frame member and rpelacing - especially if you could move it with your hand.

Was it moving forward or aft of the rear suspension mounting point? Aft would be a crumple zone - forward would be a major issue - as there is that upper member that further stiffens that area as shown in your drawing.


<font color="red"> EDIT - I uploaded 2 pics into my gallery that show the way a right rear upper frame horn will deform during a crash - and it that isn't a crumple zone deisned to protect the suspension mounting points - I don't know what is. </font>

 

[madman]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

If this was indeed a good samaritan move on your part, why the leading subject? Why the dramatic in presenting what you did? Why never a mention of safety until you're called on it? Why would you even DO what you did without reason?

Sounds like baiting for attention to me.

Perhaps let other people know that they could end up with greater damage then they might think...

You have a chance to face eurotrash this weekend at Vallaya.

 

[madman]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

#1 - there are crumple zones designed into the upper frame horns. Our car was sent back to Rousch Racing and they cut off the upper horn and replaced. There are little hash marks on the frame if I recall and whatever there is - holes, dimples, etc, it's designed to deform there. I am pretty familiar with the Viper frame.

#2 - your car WAS ALREADY HIT so the frame integrity was already weakened. Metal has fatigue issues - since it was bent once, it would take even less force than "normal" to bend it back the other way - ESPECIALLY in the area of a crumple zone. A proper repair would have involved cutting off the bent frame member and rpelacing - especially if you could move it with your hand.

Was it moving forward or aft of the rear suspension mounting point? Aft would be a crumple zone - forward would be a major issue - as there is that upper member that further stiffens that area as shown in your drawing.


<font color="red"> EDIT - I uploaded 2 pics into my gallery that show the way a right rear upper frame horn will deform during a crash - and it that isn't a crumple zone deisned to protect the suspension mounting points - I don't know what is. </font>

I can agree with the opinion that the rear end as a whole is designed as a crumple zone. At the end the horns are designed in V connected with the bumper support (which must be from some damn rare plastic because it costs $1800 (!!)). But the horn themselves don't show signs where they should break intentionally. At least we did not see them but we didn't bother taking the trunk out either.

As for 'bent already' - I wouldn't call the horn bent when it was off barely by 1 minute on 2ft radius.

Anyway - the post was meant to point the frame's material and potential issues arising from the fact that it is pretty soft metal. Howgh.

 

[Warfang]

Re: How to bend Viper\'s frame:

If this was indeed a good samaritan move on your part, why the leading subject? Why the dramatic in presenting what you did? Why never a mention of safety until you're called on it? Why would you even DO what you did without reason?

Sounds like baiting for attention to me.

Perhaps let other people know that they could end up with greater damage then they might think...

You have a chance to face eurotrash this weekend at Vallaya.

Would like go to the Valaya mustang event, but notice was too short. Would have been fun to sneer at each other over a couple beers. My Viper should still be there over the weekend. Feel free to leave a love note on the windshield.