Jon B saved my butt last night

[Ulysses]

A lot of you guys are **********, really **********. That's good. But you're letting your anger get the best of you. So much so that you're letting it blur the obvious. Complaining about the law is just the start.

It's the lawmakers who make the law. If you don't like it, do something about it. Write emails to your lawmakers, representatives, etc. Help start a lobby. nohsreg2000 states a very good point, lobbyists for the motorcycle groups are very successful. That's because they work for a large number of people. Law makers respond to numbers. Redirect your anger towards the people who can really make the change. Group together, work together. Pile on your lawmakers. After all, we pay the cops to enforce the law. Shouldn't we really be pissed at ourselves if we are lax and do nothing about a law that seems unfair to a large number of us? Shouldn't we really be kicking ourselves if we get busted time and time again because of a law that really ****** us off and makes no sense and we do nothing about it?

 

[CitySnake]

So Ulysses, please explain how VinR1's issues in traffic court would be helped by lobbying our lawmakers. Please explain why I must "humble" myself to a police officer in order to persuade him/her not to write me a ticket.

In grand theory, you are correct, but in practice, this issue is pure cop BS!

Again, I would ask, on a natinowide basis, how many times has a Viper been stopped by a police officer, hell....for ANY violation (including speeding), only to have that officer find that the Viper was involved in a felony (or any serious crime other than a traffic infraction)?

 

[Eddie N]

I wonder why a front plate is even needed. Whats the point??

I'm curious to know how much money states would save if they only stamped one license plate per vehicle instead of two. Maybe the money saved could be used for school books??

Eddie

 

[nohsreg2000]

I'm curious to know how much money states would save if they only stamped one license plate per vehicle instead of two.

Not nearly as much as the revenue from the tickets they write.


And City Snake.....you are right on, Why do I have to humble myself? they are a [******] cop not the Pope.

 

[Ulysses]

What happened to VinR1 WAS an injustice. An injustice that wouldn't have been IF the tint law were struck down before it ever became law. These things aren't secret. All bills are public knowledge.

My statements are not a remedy for the injustices of the past. They are simply a reminder that we have a way to change the laws that we feel are unjust and hopefully an instrument that can stop potential unjust laws from becoming law. By getting rid of these insane laws or stopping them before they become law, then we can eliminate a great number of future injustices from occurring. Can we eliminate them all? No, the back room collaboration that occurred in VinR1's case is proof of that. But we can sure as hell make it harder for them to do it.

Humble yourself? No, no man should humble himself to anyone but his maker. But if you're breaking the law, especially one that you feel is unjust and you did nothing about, it's still a law that you are breaking, so you could be polite about it, but that's your choice. No one is forcing you to do it. In unreelviper's defense, he did not wag his finger at you and say "You Better Be Humble", he said 'I feel that you have a better chance of getting out of a ticket by "HUMBLING" yourself'.

I can't think of any case where a police officer stopped a Viper for one infraction only to find out that it was involved in a felony. I'm not in the law profession so I don't have easy access, but I'm sure I can do some digging. It might take some time and I might not find anything at all. But I do recall a chase not too long ago in Florida, I believe, where officers tried to stop a speeding Viper which ensued in a high speed chase. Turned out it was a stolen Viper, which I believe is a felony.

 

[patgilm]

Wow, I can't believe this post caused such a heated discussion. The law is the law no matter how crappy it is. If you break it, be prepared to pay the fine. I don't have a front plate and have been pulled over and ticketed before in other cars because I don't like the front tag either. I know the law and I accept the fact that it may cost me $50. Does it make you "holier than thou" to not have a front plate and expect not to get a ticket because you drive a Viper? Probably not so pay and move on because you made the choice not to put it on. Like Ulysses said, if you don't like it and can't accept it, do something about it.

As far as the tint, I agree you got a raw deal. However, if I was an officer and pulled over any car with 95% tint on, it would probably make me feel a little uneasy to not see what is in the car.

 

[VPRVENM97]

I have made numerous felony arrests(Drugs/Robbery/****) and have removed a lot of dangerous criminals from our streets because of a vehicle that did not have a front tag.

Interesting post. I can agree with all of it but....really now, just how many "felony arrests and removal of dangerous criminals" have been the result of a "no front plate violation" involving a VIPER?

City, that's a tough one to answer without any statistical data to back it up. Here's one that can be answered to an absolute degree of certainty and without dispute. On April 19, 1995 a terrorist named Timothy McVeigh delivered and detonated a truck bomb in OKC resulting in the deaths of 168 Americans (men, women and children) and injuring over 300. Shortly there after, an Oklahoma State trooper stopped a Mercury for a missing tag. In 2001, the convicted Terrorist, Timothy McVeigh was put to death.

If that "power hungry *** hole" as some of you put it, hadn't done his job and enforced a "chicken ****" law, guess who would still be around to kill more Americans. What trainville and unreelviper are referring to is called a pretext stop. Absolutely legal according the the US Supreme Court. Its a legitimate and effective tool for law enforcement. A great deal of violent felons are apprehended in this manner.

As Ulysses stated, the laws are not created by the police, they are created by elected officials who are voted into office by American Citizens like yourselves. Got a gripe? Take it to your legislator. Change the law or get it repealed. In the mean time, abide by the rule of law as any good American should. If we knowingly break the law and get caught we should be prepared to pay the price (in this case, a fix-it ticket).

That goes for Police Officers too. Like any profession, there are good ones and there are bad ones. Most are good. Does one bad Viper tuner make them all bad? Lawyers? Doctors? Clergy? Car Salesman?

2 Viper Chuck...I really enjoy it when you throw chum out, trolling for that unsuspecting Police Officer viewing the forums. Not gonna judge you because I don't know you or your experiences. Most of your witty posts do crack me up. You might want to consider that others have had experiences you could not possibly fathom.

Trey, good to see you post. Don't see you here often.

VinR1,

btw I have BOTH troopers' names and home addresses... Ill get my revenge one day

Dude, you have a couple of young ones on the way. Bold statements like that may not be conducive to a wholesome family environment...if you know what I mean. Don't say it if you don't mean it. If you're joking, throw a smiley face in it . If you do mean it then I'm glad you don't represent the Viper Nation. If I've misinterpreted your statement then apologies in advance.

 

[VPRVENM97]

BTW, I don't agree with the requirement to have a front license plate either.

 

[Ulysses]

One thing I want to make clear. I don't think you should meekly sit by and accept the law if you feel it is nonsense. You should be **********, ********** enough to do something about it. Hopefully not something that won't do you any good, but will benefit you and everyone else.

 

[phiebert]

Just a quick point on someone's comment above about air flow with a plate on. Those plate holders were made by a club member in our region and I got one. I had the same fear, that the flow would make the car run hotter. I tested it and it didn't make any detectable difference. Of course, I too have mine in the trunk because I think it looks bad to have a plate on the front but it doesn't seem to have enough of an impact on the air flow to change the temp. My two cents.

By the way, I have got off a number of tickets by taking it out of the trunk and saying "Sorry officer, I will put it on right now."

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

2 Viper Chuck...I really enjoy it when you throw chum out, trolling for that unsuspecting Police Officer viewing the forums.

LOL Like taking candy from a baby.


Disagree with the rest of your post but the above line made me laugh too much to reply to your other points.

 

[King GTS]

I have made numerous felony arrests(Drugs/Robbery/****) and have removed a lot of dangerous criminals from our streets because of a vehicle that did not have a front tag.

Interesting post. I can agree with all of it but....really now, just how many "felony arrests and removal of dangerous criminals" have been the result of a "no front plate violation" involving a VIPER?

City, that's a tough one to answer without any statistical data to back it up. Here's one that can be answered to an absolute degree of certainty and without dispute. On April 19, 1995 a terrorist named Timothy McVeigh delivered and detonated a truck bomb in OKC resulting in the deaths of 168 Americans (men, women and children) and injuring over 300. Shortly there after, an Oklahoma State trooper stopped a Mercury for a missing tag. In 2001, the convicted Terrorist, Timothy McVeigh was put to death.

If that "power hungry *** hole" as some of you put it, hadn't done his job and enforced a "chicken ****" law, guess who would still be around to kill more Americans. What trainville and unreelviper are referring to is called a pretext stop. Absolutely legal according the the US Supreme Court. Its a legitimate and effective tool for law enforcement. A great deal of violent felons are apprehended in this manner.

As Ulysses stated, the laws are not created by the police, they are created by elected officials who are voted into office by American Citizens like yourselves. Got a gripe? Take it to your legislator. Change the law or get it repealed. In the mean time, abide by the rule of law as any good American should. If we knowingly break the law and get caught we should be prepared to pay the price (in this case, a fix-it ticket).

That goes for Police Officers too. Like any profession, there are good ones and there are bad ones. Most are good. Does one bad Viper tuner make them all bad? Lawyers? Doctors? Clergy? Car Salesman?

2 Viper Chuck...I really enjoy it when you throw chum out, trolling for that unsuspecting Police Officer viewing the forums. Not gonna judge you because I don't know you or your experiences. Most of your witty posts do crack me up. You might want to consider that others have had experiences you could not possibly fathom.

Trey, good to see you post. Don't see you here often.

VinR1,

btw I have BOTH troopers' names and home addresses... Ill get my revenge one day

Dude, you have a couple of young ones on the way. Bold statements like that may not be conducive to a wholesome family environment...if you know what I mean. Don't say it if you don't mean it. If you're joking, throw a smiley face in it . If you do mean it then I'm glad you don't represent the Viper Nation. If I've misinterpreted your statement then apologies in advance.

Thank you my friend.

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[garolittle]

Jon B. Rules!

 

[VinR1]

Dude, you have a couple of young ones on the way. Bold statements like that may not be conducive to a wholesome family environment...if you know what I mean. Don't say it if you don't mean it. If you're joking, throw a smiley face in it . If you do mean it then I'm glad you don't represent the Viper Nation. If I've misinterpreted your statement then apologies in advance.

eh... I tend to make bold statements without thinking first. What angers me the most is that I was cruising along in my mustang with the windows DOWN. The trooper pulled me over for no reason whatsoever, searched his hardest to find any reason to write a ticket, removed any evidence I had to counter the ticket, and then lied in a court of law to cover his ass. On top of that, he got another trooper to lie in court as well. Ive written letters, emails, and made phone calls to every city, county, and state official I could find and explained my entire story. The responses have ranged from being laughed at, to being hung up on, to pathetic reply letters thanking me for writing and saying they'll help my cause as long as I check their name come election day...

True, I probably wont do anything to the troopers themselves, but it would be nice to throw a few bricks through their windows or flatten some tires...

BTW, the tint was 5% on the rear and quarters (which is legal in TX) and 15% on the doors (35% legal limit) BUT the Doctor's note recommended window tint of at least 15% so I was within the doctors orders.

 

[VinR1]

Not nearly as much as the revenue from the tickets they write.

one look in the local paper... City of Somerville TX... Somerville Municipal Court reports revenue of $10,536 for the month of June... the lowest reported of the year. This is strictly from non-parking traffic violations

BTW, Somerville has a population of approx 900 people and only has TWO (2) police officers who work single, 12 hour shifts each... can you say outrageous??

 

[BIGBADCJ]

i had a good attitude when i got booked for my illegal lane change?!? because your having a bad day doesnt justify being an ass and writing someone a ticket. the cop system needs to be reworked. if you knows the laws are b.s. then you can enforce the ones that matter.

 

[LIVIPER]

VinR1

That story is a ******** OUTRAGE!! I was ********** just reading it. You should follow up and get his ass fired!!! (not to internal affairs as I have found that is not as productive) Forward the documentation to the DA, the paper, local advocacy group(trust me I'm sure there are a few in your area that you do not know about) If you pursue it, action WILL be taken. Why? Your not going to like the answer, but it's a fact. ANSWER====>MONEY. If that cop lied about witnessing an offense when he was on vacation, it calls all past and future testimony into question. And we can't have that while were busy revenue raising, can we? Sad to say that you rights are a secondary concern, if that.

Eddie N
Dozens of times in Court i have heard the 'official explanation' for requiring a front plate as a focus point for lazar and radar on it for consistent readings. That is also the explanation I have heard why you cannot have a front license place cover. Funny, I would have thought It was to quickly identify dangerous criminals. ANYONE SEEING A THEME HERE?

VPRVENM97
You can't justify wrongfully harassing five hundred people because you caught one terrorist. Either we have rights and laws or we don't. (VinR1 was wrongfully harassed as he wasn't doing anything wrong. I wasn't as although I don't agree with the plate law, yes I should have had it on.) The ends do not justify the means. That is a slippery slope you do not need to go down. In part, because in practice I believe that a cop will now feel compelled to write you a ticket to cover his ass. As for your other points regarding voting out the legislatures and one bad apple not spoiling the bunch, you are 200% correct on those points. I was surprised that didn't come up earlier. For those who can't document vacation time of a testifying officer like VinR1, those ARE the real answers.

 

[Kiaser]

Some people are just rotten to the core, and some people are just having bad days. MOST of the time if a cop is being an a$$ to you, it's due to just the bad day reason and you happened to be the unlucky person that day.

I've been stopped well over 50 times in the past few years. In my entire life I've been stopped for no front license plate 7 times (and this was before I owned a Viper). I was breaking no other law. In each time I was stopped for the plate, I could tell it was just an excuse to "check me out". However, I keep my cool, be courteous, yes sir no sir kind of stuff, have everything ready for the cop before he gets to the door, and I was never cited for the plates. Also, 9 times out of 10 if I'm pulled over for another reason (even very high speeding), I usually get just a warning if I act accordingly. Once I was stopped for 86 in a 55, and the guy had to give me a ticket. But at the end of the stop he told me he really appreciated the attitude and courteousness. Then he told me he'd recommend to the judge that the violation be dropped if I showed up for my court date. The judge did so and reduced the charge to a parking ticket cost (more importantly a NON moving violation).

Of course, even on my best behavior I've had the guys that are just hell bent. I even had a cop yell at me for getting onto the service road before pulling over instead of pulling over on the highway that had a tiny shoulder, and the service road exit was less than 1/16 mile away once his lights came on. I always try to pull into a safer place, my car can be replaced if it'***** but a cop's life cannot. After informing the officer that very reason for pulling off, he was still an a$$. I was very mad, but I would still do the same today.

Some things I've noticed that helps when you are pulled over are:

Turn off the car
Turn off the radio
Turn on your hazard lights
Get all documentation ready
Hold documentation with both hands outside the window
Respond respectfully (yes sir nor sir)
Maintain eye contact but do not stare
Smile, ask how he is doing today
Apologize for whatever you did
Only use truthful excuses (I wasn't paying attention, etc)

If you are breaking the law you WILL get tickets in your life, but when I do the above I seem to just get a warning 9 out of 10 times.

 

[Cris]

Why is it that the police, who place themselves above the law, use the law in the extreme to make their point. If I could I would ticket the ******** who drive well above the limit, drive through stop signs and lights at will, park ***** nilly, etc. I witness these almost daily. And I do not mean while in a chase but while they are on the hunt or just cruising. Are they not to abide by the same laws? Cops are not allowed to ****** in order to find murderers. Nor should they be able to speed in order to catch speeders.

Few things piss me off more than observing a cop as he comes along, hits his lights and drives through a red light and immediately extinguishes the lights and drives on.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

when I do the above I seem to just get a warning 9 out of 10 times.

9 out of 10 times??? No way. Prove me wrong. Go out and try to get a ticket this weekend. Get pulled over 10 times and show us the warning slips and the tickets. If the ratio is 9 to 1 I'll pay the ticket for you.

 

[malcoll]

I asked a police officer one time why police officers feel it ok for them to break the law and speed (when not in pursuit or headed to a call). The response was "we're trained to drive fast, so it's ok". What the heck does that mean.

And for unreel...... when you get pulled over for no front plate.. or for speeding.... do you flash your badge and leave with no ticket or warning?

I always respect the position, but I find that a lot of officers feel that being a police officer gives them a right to "do what they want" and the other police will not ticket them once they flash that badge.... I've seen it in work with a buddy of mine who was doing 85 in a 55... we got pulled over.... he showed his badge when he handed over his license and registration.... the other officer just handed it back and said "have a good night"... not even a warning to slow down.


Yeah, that's fair and reasonable.

 

[Jerome Sparich]

How come a lot of kids who got the crap kicked out of them in school are now cops?

I know a few I smacked around are now.






Ego trip...............



Anyone remember the old bumper sticker-

Support higher education, send a cop to third grade.

??????

 

[VinR1]

I asked a police officer one time why police officers feel it ok for them to break the law and speed (when not in pursuit or headed to a call). The response was "we're trained to drive fast, so it's ok". What the heck does that mean.

Ive asked an officer the same question and gotten the exact same response. So... does that mean the next time I get pulled over on my motorcycle, I can whip out my RPM Race Club card or my track passes?? ...since I am 'trained' to ride those bikes at outrageous speeds...

Like someone mentioned earlier, what chaps my ass the most is cops who flip their lights on to go through a redlight, then turn them off once through. Or, the ones who sit at a redlight and pick their nose while the little asian woman on her cell phone runs the redlight not 15 feet in front of him... I see that **** almost on a daily basis

 

[Cris]

Now let's not get prejudiced that could have been any woman on the cell phone blowing through the red light!

 

[VinR1]

i failed to mention the majority of the traffic accidents in this city are caused by asian females on their cellphones... no offense intended

 

[VPRVENM97]

VPRVENM97
You can't justify wrongfully harassing five hundred people because you caught one terrorist. Either we have rights and laws or we don't.

LI, I'd be more then happy to respond to your statement.

Lets start by the term "wrongfully harassing." That would imply an unlawful detetion, lacking any probable cause. That would be absolutely wrong and illegal. Plenty of ways to address that including administrative complaint process with the officer's agency, civil lawsuit or criminal prosecution for civil rights violation. I doubt posting it on an automotive forum would get you any tangible results.

Now let's address the issue that led to this discussion. The front license plate violation. We all agree that it's a "chicken ****" violation and does nothing to harm society. No debate here. We are fully aware that not having a front license plate in our respective states is a violation (fix-it ticket in CA) but yet we leave them off. However, if we are stopped for it, the stop would be a valid detention with probable cause. This would not be considered as "wrongfully harassing."

On to the next point. Making valid stops for minor violations resulting in apprehension of violent offenders, in this case, terrorists. I'll trade you five hundred license plate stops for a Timothy McVeigh or Mohammed Atta any day. As a matter of fact I'll trade you that 18 times over.
The last time I travelled by air I had to arrive at the airport over an hour early, had to stand in line to have my bag searched, take my shoes, belt,watch and ring off. The on top of that, upon boarding, I was randomly selected by boarding pass and had to do it all over again. Did it take longer then your car stop? Was it more invasive? Did I do anything wrong or break any law? Was that harassment? By your statement above, we should also abolish the TSA since all they do is delay and search people(including children, elderly and handicapped) who haven't even broken the law. You can argue "well you don't have to fly if you don't like it." Well the same can be said for driving. After all, it's a priviledge not a right. My vote is to keep the TSA and keep getting "harassed" at the gate.

Lastly..."Either we have rights and laws or we don't." We do have rights, its called the US Constitution. We have laws, they're legislated and codified in Federal, State and local statutes. When you applied for your Driver License you entered an agreement with your state to abide by the rules listed in your vehicle code in exchange for the priviledge to drive. If you violate the rules then be prepared to deal with it.

Not trying to get into an argument or flame war with any Viper brother (or sister), just friendly discussion. Abuse of power, rudeness, disrespect or criminal acts is unacceptable and should not be tolerated in any profession period.

2 Viper Chuck, thank you for not unleashing a salvo of nukes in my direction. I'd hate to have to take cover in the bomb shelter and live off of MRE's for the next 2 years.

 

[gthomas]

Some things I've noticed that helps when you are pulled over are:

Turn off the car
Turn off the radio
Turn on your hazard lights
Get all documentation ready
Hold documentation with both hands outside the window
Respond respectfully (yes sir nor sir)
Maintain eye contact but do not stare
Smile, ask how he is doing today
Apologize for whatever you did
Only use truthful excuses (I wasn't paying attention, etc)

If you are breaking the law you WILL get tickets in your life, but when I do the above I seem to just get a warning 9 out of 10 times.

Yes, pull over, roll the window down, and turn the car off. Place your hands on the steering wheel, and wait for the cop to ask for your license, registration, etc.. If they are going to warn you, it will be difficult when you are handing them the things they need to write a ticket.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I'll trade you five hundred license plate stops for a Timothy McVeigh or Mohammed Atta any day. As a matter of fact I'll trade you that 18 times over.

A million men gave their lives for the freedoms of this country, 500,000 in WWII alone. I don't feel good about the continuous whittling away at those freedoms for the dumb luck one-in-a-million chance of catching a dangerous criminal. Particularly considering the majority of criminals are sentenced to house arrest or just a few years in jail.

Americans gotta seriously consider how much freedom they are willing to give up when all the security they get in return is putting a criminal on house arrest.

McVeigh as I recall was stopped for impropper tag (registration). I don't recall it being a missing front plate. Not sure, but I'll research if need be.

Anybody know if OK requires a front plate?

Atta was caught by a truck driver who recognized the plate and/or car, not sure which. I am certain the truck driver didn't say, "Hey, he doesn't have a front plate. I'm calling the cops."

With both McVeigh and Atta there was at least one accomplice. Secrets rarely last long when more than one person knows about it. They would have been caught eventually.

 

[LIVIPER]

VPRVENM97
You can't justify wrongfully harassing five hundred people because you caught one terrorist. Either we have rights and laws or we don't.

LI, I'd be more then happy to respond to your statement.

Lets start by the term "wrongfully harassing." That would imply an unlawful detetion, lacking any probable cause. That would be absolutely wrong and illegal. Plenty of ways to address that including administrative complaint process with the officer's agency, civil lawsuit or criminal prosecution for civil rights violation. I doubt posting it on an automotive forum would get you any tangible results.

Now let's address the issue that led to this discussion. The front license plate violation. We all agree that it's a "chicken ****" violation and does nothing to harm society. No debate here. We are fully aware that not having a front license plate in our respective states is a violation (fix-it ticket in CA) but yet we leave them off. However, if we are stopped for it, the stop would be a valid detention with probable cause. This would not be considered as "wrongfully harassing."

On to the next point. Making valid stops for minor violations resulting in apprehension of violent offenders, in this case, terrorists. I'll trade you five hundred license plate stops for a Timothy McVeigh or Mohammed Atta any day. As a matter of fact I'll trade you that 18 times over.
The last time I travelled by air I had to arrive at the airport over an hour early, had to stand in line to have my bag searched, take my shoes, belt,watch and ring off. The on top of that, upon boarding, I was randomly selected by boarding pass and had to do it all over again. Did it take longer then your car stop? Was it more invasive? Did I do anything wrong or break any law? Was that harassment? By your statement above, we should also abolish the TSA since all they do is delay and search people(including children, elderly and handicapped) who haven't even broken the law. You can argue "well you don't have to fly if you don't like it." Well the same can be said for driving. After all, it's a priviledge not a right. My vote is to keep the TSA and keep getting "harassed" at the gate.

Lastly..."Either we have rights and laws or we don't." We do have rights, its called the US Constitution. We have laws, they're legislated and codified in Federal, State and local statutes. When you applied for your Driver License you entered an agreement with your state to abide by the rules listed in your vehicle code in exchange for the priviledge to drive. If you violate the rules then be prepared to deal with it.

Not trying to get into an argument or flame war with any Viper brother (or sister), just friendly discussion. Abuse of power, rudeness, disrespect or criminal acts is unacceptable and should not be tolerated in any profession period.

2 Viper Chuck, thank you for not unleashing a salvo of nukes in my direction. I'd hate to have to take cover in the bomb shelter and live off of MRE's for the next 2 years.

VPRVENM97, no flame taken here, just a discussion

On the point that I was not wrongfully harassed because I wasn't following the law, I agree. I think I made that point in the original post. I wrote "VinR1 was wrongfully harassed as he wasn't doing anything wrong. I wasn't as although I don't agree with the plate law, yes I should have had it on." In my case, I was in the wrong and I can't argue with the stop. So we agree there.

As for the rest, its just a matter of how much freedom we are willing to give up to pursue wrongdoers. In reality, probable cause is a joke. In the real world its more of a legal fiction than anything else. I am not a cop, but many of my friends are. I used to ride with them all the time. Just remember EVERYTIME you get in your car, you are going to break the law ATLEAST one time, and once is all you need. When you leave the house, are you going to drive 30MPH on residental roads or 35? Are you going to drive 55 on the highway (you would be the only one)or 56, 57, 58, 59? If I wanted to stop you (nothing personal) do you think I could find a valid reason? You think I could find a violation on your vehicle? I though I saw you weaving in your lane a bit, everything alright? You think if I followed you long enough I could catch you 'rolling' through a stop sign?(we've all heard that one) Of course, the very fact that we’re talking on this particular board would be a strong indication that you and I both have taken some liberties in our favorite American sports car. So forget probable cause, the argument is back to one of intent. Lets be real, if you want to stop me in my Lexus truck because your in pursuit of a terrorist or violent felon, no problem count me in to sit patiently through those 500 look see stops. But when I get pull over in a BRIGHT RED Viper with blaring polished rims and a trumpeting B&B exhaust with the top down, that cop is not looking for a felon making him or herself scares from the law, he looking to give me, the big shot, the attitude test. (to some extent its like Chuck said, what felon has ever been caught in on of these billboards on wheels.)

So, although others would disagree with me, I don't care if I'm stop without any legal probable cause as long as there is some meaningful intent, more than let me show this big shot that I can make him sit up and bark.

And as far as the Constitution, there are infact rights in there beyond the four corners of that document. The US Supreme Court has held that intent may be considered beyond probable cause. There are several examples, but the most commonly cited is racial profiling. In every case, there was some probable cause (of course, we've establish that cause can always be found) to stop those motorist, yet where the clear intent was to profile a particaular race, the practice was unconstitutional, despite the legal cause for the stop. Unfortunately, race is a 'protected class' under the Constitution while being a Viper owner is not. Drafters missed that one.

Anyway, we agree on too much. What kind of argument is this anyway?

 

[VPRVENM97]

A million men gave their lives for the freedoms of this country, 500,000 in WWII alone. I don't feel good about the continuous whittling away at those freedoms for the dumb luck one-in-a-million chance of catching a dangerous criminal. Particularly considering the majority of criminals are sentenced to house arrest or just a few years in jail.

Americans gotta seriously consider how much freedom they are willing to give up when all the security they get in return is putting a criminal on house arrest.

McVeigh as I recall was stopped for impropper tag (registration). I don't recall it being a missing front plate. Not sure, but I'll research if need be.

Chuck, I don't like the whittling away of freedoms either. Too many laws on the books as it is. As far as where criminals are sentenced after they are convicted, that has nothing to do with the police (since that's the focus of our discussion). That is strictly in the hands of the courts and the legislators. That's a whole different area of discussion.

Mcveigh was stopped for a missing tag (as stated in an earlier post)not missing front plate. Just using that as an example.

VPRVENM97, no flame taken here, just a discussion



We agree on too much. What kind of argument is this anyway?

LI, Chuck, Thanks for the discussion!