N/A Cam setup??

[1BADGTS]

Too bad there is no proof.

No proof are you kidding the car won 4 straight Mopar Atl Nat titles (only about 500 people witnessed it run those times.Joe Houss (EX VCA PRES )BOUGHT THE CAR FROM ME so before you run your mouth about things you really know nothing about maybe you should drop Joe an E-MAIL and he will gladly verify .Should you not believe Joe call Darren Buhler of Buhler Auto Group(VCA SITE SPONSER ) as Darren made NUMERIOUS PASSES of 11.2 at 132 in it If you get Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford they featured it on their cover Jan 2001 (Fastest TRUE streetcars in TRI STATE AREA SHOOTOUT )its engine build sheet and times are all PUBLISHED.

 

[RapidRonnie]

No proof are you kidding the car won 4 straight Mopar Atl Nat titles (only about 500 people witnessed it run those times.Joe Houss (EX VCA PRES )BOUGHT THE CAR FROM ME so before you run your mouth about things you really know nothing about maybe you should drop Joe an E-MAIL and he will gladly verify .Should you not believe Joe call Darren Buhler of Buhler Auto Group(VCA SITE SPONSER ) as Darren made NUMERIOUS PASSES of 11.2 at 132 in it If you get Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford they featured it on their cover Jan 2001 (Fastest TRUE streetcars in TRI STATE AREA SHOOTOUT )its engine build sheet and times are all PUBLISHED.

That's really impressive.
I truly believe N.A. is the way to go on these engines, for general high performance use.


Ronnie

 

[Twister]

Nonthing hard to believe about it at all...

The 08's are fynoing 540-560 rwhp SAE and trapping 126-130 mph and running 10.9-11.5..

So any viper with 570-590 rwhp should hit low 130's and low 11's no problem..

I almost bought a 2004 vert from this guy in cali two years ago..car had the heads and cam from that really crappy viper fener that ripps people off based in california...I forget what they are called..West Coast somthing or the other...

But his 2004 dynoed 565 rwhp with the stock cats still in place..

Guy wasnt really into drag raceing and only took the car once...Ran a bunch of 13's and 12's and then got her down to a 11.4 at 128.xx mph in 85 degree weather...

Honestly to me NA is the way to go...I was gonna buy the car and add headers and no cats shooting for 600 rwhp and 132 plus mph trapps,,But the wife said hell no and i bought a POS nsx.....Back in a Viper again now but man the Vipers are just SOOO impressive..


What car besides the viper can you hit 550-600 PLUS rwhp in naturally asperated and still drive around like a regular car???? Cant wait till we see some 700 rwhp 2008 Vipers NA

 

[1BADGTS]

That's really impressive.
I truly believe N.A. is the way to go on these engines, for general high performance use.


Ronnie

The reason i went NA was two fold i street drove the car 3k miles per year and the car was often used by the mag guys at McMullen Argus as a test car (barometer).Its hard for some to imagine now (bone stock Gen4s in the 10s )but if you has a street car on stock tires running low 11s back in he 90s you had a fast car.Forced induction is great but over the years i have had numerious blown Vipers tested by the mags and not one of them could come anywhere near the amount of abuse my NA MOTOR could take.(On hot days running heatsosaked they ABSOLUTELY will not take geing kept in boost for long periods of time )

 

[1BADGTS]

Nonthing hard to believe about it at all...

The 08's are fynoing 540-560 rwhp SAE and trapping 126-130 mph and running 10.9-11.5..

So any viper with 570-590 rwhp should hit low 130's and low 11's no problem..

I almost bought a 2004 vert from this guy in cali two years ago..car had the heads and cam from that really crappy viper fener that ripps people off based in california...I forget what they are called..West Coast somthing or the other...

But his 2004 dynoed 565 rwhp with the stock cats still in place..

Guy wasnt really into drag raceing and only took the car once...Ran a bunch of 13's and 12's and then got her down to a 11.4 at 128.xx mph in 85 degree weather...

Honestly to me NA is the way to go...I was gonna buy the car and add headers and no cats shooting for 600 rwhp and 132 plus mph trapps,,But the wife said hell no and i bought a POS nsx.....Back in a Viper again now but man the Vipers are just SOOO impressive..


What car besides the viper can you hit 550-600 PLUS rwhp in naturally asperated and still drive around like a regular car???? Cant wait till we see some 700 rwhp 2008 Vipers NA

Exactly Twister people inexperianced with Vipers dont realize that bone stock Gen 4 (with a little less power than i was making )have run 10s.

 

[RapidRonnie]

Exactly Twister people inexperianced with Vipers dont realize that bone stock Gen 4 (with a little less power than i was making )have run 10s.

Yes, I saw the year(s) that your car was doing what it was doing and ten years ago; it was a fast car, period.
It's sad to see them when they aren't getting a fair chance. 2008 in Vegas for their Mopar Viper deal, there were a string of Vipers running 13s...
Most of the stock 2008s we see dyno around 530 to 540 wheel. And very close to 600 with full exhaust. Impressive 1/4 mile times are just a decent driver and some traction away...
It's much easier to get another 125 - 150 horsepower out of a Gen II or III (N.A.) than it is the IVs, that's for sure; primarily because the IVs already have the better cylinder heads.

 

[1BADGTS]

Yes, I saw the year(s) that your car was doing what it was doing and ten years ago; it was a fast car, period.
It's sad to see them when they aren't getting a fair chance. 2008 in Vegas for their Mopar Viper deal, there were a string of them running 13s...
Most of the stock 2008s we see dyno around 530 to 540 wheel. And very close to 600 with full exhaust.
It's much easier to get another 125 - 150 horsepower out of a Gen II or III (N.A.) than it is the IVs, that's for sure; primarily because the IVs already have the better cylinder heads.

Ronnie,like everything else it really is all in the driver on a sealevel track.

 

[1BADGTS]

Ronnie as far as the BLOWN VIPERS lol over the years i have had numerious debates with owners of them who CLAIM to drive them hard without any problems .Everyones defination of driving something hard is different .A beg-mid level driver who takes his car to the strip and runs it a few times a year without problems is a world different than handing the keys to Evan Smith to hotlap the car in 95 degree heat .Once a problem happens in a heatsoaked motor under boost its results are often catostrophic in comparasion to a NA car.

 

[RapidRonnie]

Ronnie as far as the BLOWN VIPERS lol over the years i have had numerious debates with owners of them who CLAIM to drive them hard without any problems .Everyones defination of driving something hard is different .A beg-mid level driver who takes his car to the strip and runs it a few times a year without problems is a world different than handing the keys to Evan Smith to hotlap the car in 95 degree heat .Once a problem happens in a heatsoaked motor under boost its results are often catostrophic in comparasion to a NA car.

No surprises on my end- Yeah, "Blown" is right..
There seems to be a misconception out there, that there is a weakness in the cast o.e.m. Gen III pistons that won't allow them to stand up to the increased "power" imposed by the superchargers. That isn't the case at all, from what I have found. The ones I've repaired have had CLASSIC detonation damage- shattered ring lands, broken plug porcelain and in some cases hammered bearings. In one case, the piston shattered, jammed in the bore, and kicked a rod.
The most recent victim (Gen II) was in a S/C Viper car, and it is a real mess. Less than 3500 miles and the engine is coming out already. The owner had it built with all the good parts and is understandably pissed. Plus it fell far short of the expected power levels. Whoever built it used a small snout pulley and had 12 pounds of boost even at our dismal altitude. The methanol injection didn't save this one...

I see it on the forums already, the guys that bought into that way of thinking, thought forged pistons would be their salvation are now starting to complain about increased oil consumption (from blow-by) less than a year later. It is a very safe bet to assume ring lands are becoming crushed and rings are losing tension, once again from the heat from detonation. I just don't recommend the S/C route for general high-perf. use on these engines, period. And especially not with the added 1900 pounds of heft in a truck application. The engines in the trucks are failing with less than 6 pounds of boost.
I've got over 60,000 trouble-free miles on my (stock reciprocating)truck already and it's seen plenty of track time... N.A. any day...

Ronnie

 

[1BADGTS]

Exactly ,if run hard by a Pro in hot weather i have seen problems with all of them be it cast (bolt on kits )forged 25 k specific tuner applications ect .Nick at Modern (like yourself does a ton of rebuilds after they blow )also relates it to detonation -heat issues caused by too much boost ,too small or lack of intercooling ect .Years ago thru the mag guys i met SRT Engineer ERIC HANOER .Before the Gen 4 came out Dodge explored all options including supercharging the Gen 3 .Corporate Mandate for reliability is the engine MUST be able to run for days straight near redline on the dyno.Hanoer told me they could not get any of the bolt on kits to run for hours on the dyno without issues.

 

[RapidRonnie]

Exactly ,if run hard by a Pro in hot weather i have seen problems with all of them be it cast (bolt on kits )forged 25 k specific tuner applications ect .Nick at Modern (like yourself does a ton of rebuilds after they blow )also relates it to detonation -heat issues caused by too much boost ,too small or lack of intercooling ect .Years ago thru the mag guys i met SRT Engineer ERIC HANOER .Before the Gen 4 came out Dodge explored all options including supercharging the Gen 3 .Corporate Mandate for reliability is the engine MUST be able to run for days straight near redline on the dyno.Hanoer told me they could not get any of the bolt on kits to run for hours on the dyno without issues.

PM sent.....

 

[1BADGTS]

PM sent.....

Please call me as we have got to compare notes .

 

[ViperTony]

All right you two, get a room. But keep sharing the juicy technical notes here though.

 

[1BADGTS]

No surprises on my end- Yeah, "Blown" is right..
There seems to be a misconception out there, that there is a weakness in the cast o.e.m. Gen III pistons that won't allow them to stand up to the increased "power" imposed by the superchargers. That isn't the case at all, from what I have found. The ones I've repaired have had CLASSIC detonation damage- shattered ring lands, broken plug porcelain and in some cases hammered bearings. In one case, the piston shattered, jammed in the bore, and kicked a rod.
The most recent victim (Gen II) was in a S/C Viper car, and it is a real mess. Less than 3500 miles and the engine is coming out already. The owner had it built with all the good parts and is understandably pissed. Plus it fell far short of the expected power levels. Whoever built it used a small snout pulley and had 12 pounds of boost even at our dismal altitude. The methanol injection didn't save this one...

I see it on the forums already, the guys that bought into that way of thinking, thought forged pistons would be their salvation are now starting to complain about increased oil consumption (from blow-by) less than a year later. It is a very safe bet to assume ring lands are becoming crushed and rings are losing tension, once again from the heat from detonation. I just don't recommend the S/C route for general high-perf. use on these engines, period. And especially not with the added 1900 pounds of heft in a truck application. The engines in the trucks are failing with less than 6 pounds of boost.
I've got over 60,000 trouble-free miles on my (stock reciprocating)truck already and it's seen plenty of track time... N.A. any day...

Ronnie

Ron i think like everything else it all comes down to money in order to make these kits cost effective TO SELL on goes water injection instead of an intercooler. If the blower (size wise )is used on a 5 liter Mustang so be it because not only is it the only thing avail that will fit but most guys are not going to run the thing hard anyway as the only real racing they are going to do with the thing is bench race dyno numbers with their friends across the country.On top of that you have the customer issues (if 6lbs is ok then 8,10 or 12 lbs boost should not matter either ).When the thing takes a dump alot of people are flat out embarrassed to admit it because of the money they spent.Right now i know of one NJ guy that two years ago spent 25k on a BLOWER PACKAGE from a big time tuner (FORGED EVERYTHING DOWN TO THE MAIN CAPS ).At this point in time the guy has had two separate LARGE issues with the cars both when he ran it at Atco and is flat out scared to run the thing in boost again because hes so upsidedown in it cost,time wise.

 

[RapidRonnie]

Ron i think like everything else it all comes down to money in order to make these kits cost effective TO SELL on goes water injection instead of an intercooler. If the blower (size wise )is used on a 5 liter Mustang so be it because not only is it the only thing avail that will fit but most guys are not going to run the thing hard anyway as the only real racing they are going to do with the thing is bench race dyno numbers with their friends across the country.On top of that you have the customer issues (if 6lbs is ok then 8,10 or 12 lbs boost should not matter either ).When the thing takes a dump alot of people are flat out embarrassed to admit it because of the money they spent.Right now i know of one NJ guy that two years ago spent 25k on a BLOWER PACKAGE from a big time tuner (FORGED EVERYTHING DOWN TO THE MAIN CAPS ).At this point in time the guy has had two separate LARGE issues with the cars both when he ran it at Atco and is flat out scared to run the thing in boost again because hes so upsidedown in it cost,time wise.

Great talking to you. I was shoveling snow (-15 here) so the drag radials aren't doing much good today. The track (such as it is) reopens here in May at the earliest, so there are long periods to get ready for the short racing season.
The Striker Head and Custom Cam packages have been working out VERY well. Great power, easy to tune and totally repeatable, reliable performance year after year.

 

[1BADGTS]

Ron it was a pleasure .I have heard great things about those Striker heads as well.Hopefully you and Nick at Modern Perf can get together (share ideas ect )as you both speak the same language and truely care about you customers.

 

[Twister]

ok...seems like you two know whats up...How is the drivability on these 550 plus rwhp NA builds gen3 wise

 

[RapidRonnie]

ok...seems like you two know whats up...How is the drivability on these 550 plus rwhp NA builds gen3 wise

There are zero driveability issues except you can blaze the tires at will. I went with a small custom grind cam (226 @.050 with a wide LSA) to build torque in my truck (607 wheel). It still has a slight lope at idle however. The Striker heads use a fast-burn combustion chamber so you can sneak the compression ratio up a bit and still use your favorite pump gas. This boost in compression also helps power, of course; and my mileage also went up.

Going with a cam that is too big however can make the car (or truck) a pain in the butt to drive, so I match the Strikers, Cam and application in a package for the best results.

Hope this helps.

Ronnie

 

[1BADGTS]

There are zero driveability issues except you can blaze the tires at will. I went with a small custom grind cam (226 @.050 with a wide LSA) to build torque in my truck (607 wheel). It still has a slight lope at idle however. The Striker heads use a fast-burn combustion chamber so you can sneak the compression ratio up a bit and still use your favorite pump gas. This boost in compression also helps power, of course and my mileage also went up.

Going with a cam that is too big however can make the car (or truck) a pain in the butt to drive, so I match the Strikers, Cam and application in a package for the best results.

Hope this helps.

Ronnie

Exactly i tried different cams in my GEN 2 (4 OF THEM )the BEST overally cam was the CROWER STAGE 2 .Anything bigger really kills the driveability and really only gives a slight amount of power more.Some guys talk about SOLIDS ECT .Like a blower you really should know what your getting into before you start with ALL the BS that comes with them .The lifter Galleys need to be machined .CERTAIN PISTONS NEED TO BE RUN (PISTON TO VALVE CLEARENCE ).Absolutely no Vacume at all .Valve adjustment issues .Oiling problems (Gen 2 do not like to be reved up to high .)Horrible resale value .Once the block has been machined to accept the solid cam i dont think you can ever run HYD again due to the machine of the lifter galleys .

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

1. The lifter Galleys need to be machined.

2. CERTAIN PISTONS NEED TO BE RUN (PISTON TO VALVE CLEARANCE ).

3. Absolutely no Vacuum at all .

4. Valve adjustment issues .

5. Oiling problems (Gen 2 do not like to be reved up to high .)

6. Horrible resale value.

7. Once the block has been machined to accept the solid cam i dont think you can ever run HYD again due to the machine of the lifter galleys .

1. No

2. Not unless a huge cam is run. A hydraulic cam that is too big will have P to V issues also.

3. Not true. Two cams of the same duration, one hydraulic, one solid, the solid will pull more vacuum. This is due to the shorter advertised duration of the solid. Example: A 232 @ .050" hydraulic is 282 advertised. A 232 @ .050" solid will be 262. That is 20 degrees less seat duration. The 232 @ .050" solid I use pulls 2 more inches of vacuum than a 708 cam at idle.

4. All valvetrains need to be adjusted correctly and periodically. If quality parts are used, and someone sets them up right, you do not have to set the valves constantly. Lash setting uses stays put for a long time. Normally they can be checked when the oil is changed.

5. Having a solid cam does not change the oiling issues of a Viper.

6. That is subjective, and only exists due to the misinformation spread around.

7. The lifter galleys do not need to be machined to run a roller.

A solid lifter cam is not for everyone, and I only recommend them for people that have some experience with setting valves. It's not a big deal to check the valves, and can be done in about an hour. The benefits are worth it IMO. Typically the solid cam will make more torque,be more streetable, and will stay out of valve float for a few hundred more rpm.

I have yet to have a customer that went with a the *right* solid setup regret it.

 

[SquadX]

How did my old cam work out for you SquadX??

Any dyno numbers?

made it to 940 miles of break in before it was hit and wrecked. Was going to dyno at 1k mile mark and do the sct flash then as well. But to verify, that car felt like a bat out of hell and I never revved it over 4500 rpms at this point. just nasty and sounded like a dream. If I ever swap cams with my new toy, i;ll be calling GG for that same cam.

 

[1BADGTS]

1. No

2. Not unless a huge cam is run. A hydraulic cam that is too big will have P to V issues also.

3. Not true. Two cams of the same duration, one hydraulic, one solid, the solid will pull more vacuum. This is due to the shorter advertised duration of the solid. Example: A 232 @ .050" hydraulic is 282 advertised. A 232 @ .050" solid will be 262. That is 20 degrees less seat duration. The 232 @ .050" solid I use pulls 2 more inches of vacuum than a 708 cam at idle.

4. All valvetrains need to be adjusted correctly and periodically. If quality parts are used, and someone sets them up right, you do not have to set the valves constantly. Lash setting uses stays put for a long time. Normally they can be checked when the oil is changed.

5. Having a solid cam does not change the oiling issues of a Viper.

6. That is subjective, and only exists due to the misinformation spread around.

7. The lifter galleys do not need to be machined to run a roller.

A solid lifter cam is not for everyone, and I only recommend them for people that have some experience with setting valves. It's not a big deal to check the valves, and can be done in about an hour. The benefits are worth it IMO. Typically the solid cam will make more torque,be more streetable, and will stay out of valve float for a few hundred more rpm.

I have yet to have a customer that went with a the *right* solid setup regret it.

As i said i ran the CROWER stage 2 i believe anything above that will cause DRIVEABILITY PROBLEMS WHICH AS YOU SAY IS SUBJECTIVE.One thing though that is not subjective is the following (and ALL my years of Viper racing backs this up )why would i want to screw around with a solid cam when i can run 11.2 at 132 on pump gas ans stock tires in a GEN 2 .My buddy ran the same set up as mine and ran 10.5 at near 135 on slicks (hyd cam ).If the solid cams produced faster times thats great the problem is there is absolutely no data saying they are worth the effort in a DRAG RACING APPLICATION.

 

[1BADGTS]

As i said i ran the CROWER stage 2 i believe anything above that will cause DRIVEABILITY PROBLEMS WHICH AS YOU SAY IS SUBJECTIVE.One thing though that is not subjective is the following (and ALL my years of Viper racing backs this up )why would i want to screw around with a solid cam when i can run 11.2 at 132 on pump gas ans stock tires in a GEN 2 .My buddy ran the same set up as mine and ran 10.5 at near 135 on slicks (hyd cam ).If the solid cams produced faster times thats great the problem is there is absolutely no data saying they are worth the effort in a DRAG RACING APPLICATION.

Ps the fastest ET and trap speeds EVER RECORDED on a pump gas all motor GEN 2 were LPE ,Don Nase and my car ,none of which ran solids.

 

[1BADGTS]

AS far as hugh hyd cams i believe the CROWER STAGE 2 i ran (which is again subjective )can not be used with stock pistons =clearence issues. You mentioned a solid cam does not change the oiling issues i was under the assumption that the oiling problems happened above 5500 RPM and thats where solid cam typically make more power. Could you elaborate on this because my tuner spoke with Caldwell (through the mag guys ) who said that if i were to run solid to go dry sump (continuous operation high rpm )

 

[ViperTony]

Greg, I believe this is the cam you and I have been discussing:

"Here's a cam that I've sold many times, and it works REALLY good.

Comp Cams hydraulic roller:
3634 intake lobe / 232 @ .050" / .600" with a 1.7 rocker
3635 exhaust lobe / 236 @ .050" / .605" with a 1.7 rocker
114 lobe separation, and order it with 4 degrees of advance ground into it.

This cam will make upwards of 600 rwhp on a stock shortblock with a good set of heads, 1 & 3/4 primary tube headers, and no cats. It has enough vacuum to not make the engine go rich at idle, and will run with the stock PCM. It sounds really good at idle too. "

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

The oiling issues with the Viper have nothing to do with the valvetrain. One of the problems is the oil pump is driven at crank speed, and it cavitates sooner than one driven at less speed, like a Chevy/Ford that is driven off the camshaft, which runs at half crank speed.

Another problem is the pump itself. The supply side passages in the front cover of a Gen 2 Viper are tiny. They fixed that on the Gen 3. And then you have the crank which is cross drilled. So you have an oiling system that does not put out much volume to begin with that is combined with a crankshaft this drinks oil like it's going out of style. You can help the problem by changing the crank to Chevy oiling. You can increase the oil supply to the rod bearings *and* reduce overall oil consuption in the crank at the same time.

You'd be surprised how little oil pressue you can get away with when the oiling system is right. 40 psi will turn 10,000 rpm on a small block *Chevy/Ford/Dodge/whatever* as long as the crank has Chevy oiling.

It has nothing to do with the lifters.

Edit: Here is a hokey hand drawing of the oiling passages of number 2 and 5 mains journals on a Viper. They are not cross drilled just once, but twice. The oil comes in the crank and feeds a total of 5 (3 main bearing passages and 2 rod bearing passages) passages rather than one, the rod passage. There is a lot of volume in those passages and only *X* amount of oil. That is why these engines are so notorious for spinning number 3 and 4 rod bearing. They simply do not recceive much oil. In the drawing you can see where it says *pin*. A pin or set screw can be installed in the cross drilled passage just below where the oil passage to the rod journal originates. That will feed all oil that enters the passage to the rob bearing, as is done with Chevy oiling.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

Yes, that is my old *standby* hydraulic roller cam.

Greg, I believe this is the cam you and I have been discussing:

"Here's a cam that I've sold many times, and it works REALLY good.

Comp Cams hydraulic roller:
3634 intake lobe / 232 @ .050" / .600" with a 1.7 rocker
3635 exhaust lobe / 236 @ .050" / .605" with a 1.7 rocker
114 lobe separation, and order it with 4 degrees of advance ground into it.

This cam will make upwards of 600 rwhp on a stock shortblock with a good set of heads, 1 & 3/4 primary tube headers, and no cats. It has enough vacuum to not make the engine go rich at idle, and will run with the stock PCM. It sounds really good at idle too. "

 

[1BADGTS]

Greg you never ran the Crower Stage 2 did you .As i said i ran 4 cams including a 600 lift 242 dutation at .50 DAVE CROWER himself custom ground off the flow sheets on my MOPAR STREET heads (his son DAN did the port job ).The car was a complete pig with that cam .(This was in 99 BEFORE DFI was AVAIL so Dan Craigen and my guy Nick tried to WORK THE pcm OUT THE BEST THEY COULD. IT MADE MORE PEAK POWER ON THE DYNO BUT AT THE TRACK SHOWED NO DIFFETRENCE and the driveability sucked. I was never into DYNO numbers (dynos great tools BUT in drag racing peak power on a dyno does not ALWAYS EQUATE winning a drag race .)To me at least the car was built to win at the track ,not on the dyno thats why i said no matter the dyno number if a worked GEN 2 can not trap at ;least 130 plus on pump gas and stock tires something is wrong.

 

[RapidRonnie]

Greg Good-

Thanks for the info. There are very few people willing to share good information and that is unfortunate.

In a hundred years, none of this will matter...

1BAD- That's right, dynos are tuning tools for before and after results and a great place to see if an engine is experiencing any detonation, leaks, etc. My 577 wheel (consistent on a Dynojet) drops around 12% on a Mustang. So for bragging rights, I'll go with the Dynojet.. And I've seen that as well- "gains" on the dyno don't always result in better track times. Especially if short, peak power pull, spark advance games are being played or the operator has fudged the numbers. But that would NEVER happen...right?

Ronnie

 

[1BADGTS]

Greg Good-

Thanks for the info. There are very few people willing to share good information and that is unfortunate.

In a hundred years, none of this will matter...

1BAD- That's right, dynos are tuning tools for before and after results and a great place to see if an engine is experiencing any detonation, leaks, etc. My 577 wheel (consistent on a Dynojet) drops around 12% on a Mustang. So for bragging rights, I'll go with the Dynojet.. And I've seen that as well- "gains" on the dyno don't always result in better track times. Especially if short, peak power pull, spark advance games are being played or the operator has fudged the numbers. But that would NEVER happen...right?

Ronnie

Ronnie its too funny these guys race dyno numbers against each other and proclaim the car with the higher number faster (LOL MIND you dont dare go to a drag strip with the car instead race on the dyno ).Interesting story my buddy Joe S had a top end kit done by Nick on his gen 2 .Anyhow we both Dyno at Bob Ida (does a ton of the Hot Rods all over the US )Joes car dynoed at 35 horsepower MORE than my worked motor ever did (he made 605 corrected to the tire ,the MOST i ever made corrected was 575 )on the SAME dyno Torque was close i think i made 15lbs more.I took crap from all the guys (because my car did fairly well in the VCA competitions ) hes going to beat you this year ect hes makes 50 flywheel more ect .Nick was adament= a dyno is nothing but a tool THE POWER DOES NOT ALWAYS TRANSLATE TO A TRAP SPEED.The next week the mag guys were testing and i had Evan Smith run both cars same day same track.Evan ran 11.6 at 125.5 in his and 11.2 at 131 in mine .Go figure.