Popping out of Gear

[RobZilla]

So I'm driving along pretty quickly. Go into 5th gear for a bit back off then hit it pretty good and revvv. Lo and behold I'm in neutral. Now I am positive I didn't shift out of 5th. I put it back into 5th and watch the gear shifter as I press the accelerator about half way down. I watch the gear shifter move down out of 5th and into neutral.

I try 6th gear and I get the same thing. 1st thru 4th is normal, no problems. (*** MATE) Seriously what could be the problem here?

I also get a lil grinding now and then going into 5th and 6th...

 

[Steve-Indy]

Check shifter...if OK, consider a rebuild of the tranny...assuming the fluid is new and full.

 

[dave6666]

BUNGEE cord.

 

[FATHERFORD]

sounds like time for rebuild.

 

[skeetachya]

It still has less than 30k and it needs a rebuild. Is it possible its just a short shifter problem?

 

[PDCjonny]

My tranny was shot at 9K, rebuilt by Chuck Tators guy. Mileage means nothing.

 

[Cobraken]

It's rebuild time

 

[RobZilla]

Alrighty since I'm looking at a rebuild, I have a couple of questions to go with it.

1st how much am I looking at for a tranny rebuild?

2nd since I'm already in there, I'd like to do an aluminum clutch and flywheel set up

Time to help me get creative. If I can get some advice and prices thrown at me, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[FATHERFORD]

Now what I'm curious about is what t56 upgrades do we have to make it a bit more stronger?

 

[dave6666]

Why not throw in some different ratios on 5th and 6th? Kind of like getting a rear end gear change but only in 5th & 6th.

G-Force Transmissions and Long Shifters

I think DC Performance works on the T56. Might also try Parts Rack and Tators to get prices on new/used/services.

 

[Schulmann]

Your 5-6 gear syncro is gone ... Don't drive your viper unless you want to replace the main shaft too. It is very expensive. The T56 is enough strong. The main issue is the factory oil ...

Why the 5-6th syncro goes out ?
Poor quality oil + acceleration + heat + a little oil missing => syncro burns out.

The way how the 5-6th gear is positionned it is subjects of "abuse" in the tranny.
I usually put 0.2 l more oil in my manual tranny to prevent this issue.


From the PM that I sent to you (It might be usefull for other guys):

In my case it was obvious that my tranny was broken and needed a rebuild. So I just unmounted and took the yellow pages to find a tranny builder.

Before you unmount your tranny dont' forget to drain the oil ... Otherwise it will pour into your car ... (I did it )

The main trouble with the Viper tranny is the Mopar oil. I have a 2006 Coupe. I just changed the tranny oil a week ago. The oil was looking very bad, it had only 7000mi !!! Since I only use the Amsoil 75w90 Tranny & Gear oil. It resists very well high temperatures.

So take the yellow pages and start looking for a tranny shops.
Ask them if they know how to rebuilt " A Tremec T56 for Mustangs, Corvettes and Vipers". I called at least 5 places before a guy told me that he knows somebody who works on this tranny.

 

[RobZilla]

Thanks for the advice... Im sure it has been a while since the trans fluid has been changed so I bet thats the culprit. I'll have to start with a call to Chuck Tator for his advice before I start tearing into it. Thanks again guys.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Just a note here - normally if you can't get it into gear, then it's probably the synchro-fluid story. If it pops out of gear, then the beveled teeth on the gears themselves have lost their taper.

Perhaps you thought that when engaged, certain "teeth" are pushing at a perfect 90 degrees to each other. Actually, there is a slight taper so that under load, the two engaged parts try to pull or hook each other closer together. This is what has gone bad if the tranny pops out of gear while driving.

Sorry for the dumb-down explanation, but what it means is that you might need more parts than the simple synchro replacement. However, it also sound very much like a shifter adustment issue - if you had an aftermarket shifter that has stops, maybe it was adjusted in 1-2 or 3-4 and needs to be adjusted for 5-6. It is possible (i know this) that if the shifter allowed the gears to engage, but not to move a little closer and pull itself together, it may pop out while driving or on decel.

For the effort, it's worth a look.

 

[RobZilla]

Again, I appreciate the concerns and advice. I spoke with Chuck today who advised pretty much the same thing (Rebuild). Whatever the case may be, I'll be taking the tranny out and bringing it to someone with experience. With all the possibilities I'd just rather have it looked at and fixed right the first time.

I do have the short throw shifter and haven't had a problem with it until now. All the gears worked fine and shifting was never a problem. Seems this just popped up out of nowhere.

 

[Warfang]

Just a note here - normally if you can't get it into gear, then it's probably the synchro-fluid story. If it pops out of gear, then the beveled teeth on the gears themselves have lost their taper.

Perhaps you thought that when engaged, certain "teeth" are pushing at a perfect 90 degrees to each other. Actually, there is a slight taper so that under load, the two engaged parts try to pull or hook each other closer together. This is what has gone bad if the tranny pops out of gear while driving.

Sorry for the dumb-down explanation, but what it means is that you might need more parts than the simple synchro replacement. However, it also sound very much like a shifter adustment issue - if you had an aftermarket shifter that has stops, maybe it was adjusted in 1-2 or 3-4 and needs to be adjusted for 5-6. It is possible (i know this) that if the shifter allowed the gears to engage, but not to move a little closer and pull itself together, it may pop out while driving or on decel.

For the effort, it's worth a look.

How do you adjust for it? I have a 3rd gear that behaves exactly how you described. Every now and then it'll pop out on driving or decel. I have an aftermarket shifter... B/M I believe.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I Googled real quick and this is the first image that shows the adjusting screws. There should be something similar on yours; for instance, while on this example the shifter hits the head of the bolts, on mine there are set screws that are turned in or out from the outside. I found that you have to try each pair of gears because one will have a different throw distance than the other.

http://www.lonestarstangs.com/gallery/data/500/72.jpg

 

[RobZilla]

So if I am looking at this image correctly, that is the gear shifter? Or is that a particular set of gears? Is it possible that the position of the screw moved causing the acceleration to push the gear shift out of gear?

Obviously I am no expert so please be patient as I try to understand this T56.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

And I'm no artist, but here's the image with comments. It is the shifter, under the boot. If the bolts are not adjusted properly, you can't move the shifter 100% into position. This position may change in time. Your shifter may look a little different, but the principle is the same.

 

[Arthur R Davis]

Check for earlier shifter and trans posts. There are some really good post about 2-3 months ago.

 

[RobZilla]

I already did that as a good VCA member would do before posting the question. Appreciate the advice.

To update: My trans is tore up in the back. 5th and 6th gears rings bearings and syncro's all need to be replaced. I am looking at a major overhaul, or new.... either way, when it gets back along with the other new parts and mods....

it is gonna be one Helluva ride

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Sorry to hear that. When mine went, someone commented that T-56's are like razor blades.....

At least I had to laugh then.

 

[cyaford]

Here's an e-mail I received from SixSpeedsInc.com (formerly t56rebuilds.com) about getting parts for mine. My 5 to 6 shift has been grinding for a while, but does not grind if I engage the clutch for a few extra seconds when going into 6th.

Here are the parts I would replace based on what you described in the
email:

Blocker Ring Kit- $169 (That is part of the synchro and will need to be
replaced if it is worn out)

5/6 Slider Assembly- $95 (Again part of the synchro)

5th Gear- $95 (If it has been grinding that long it probably has
damaged the synchro teeth on the gear)

6th Gear- $95 (If it has been grinding that long it probably has
damaged the synchro teeth on this gear also)

Here is what I would replace to give you a better transmission, more
reliability and additional power options:

New 1/2 Slider- $115
New 3/4 Slider- $115
Billet 3/4 Keys- $75
Bronze 1-4 fork pads- $60
Steel 3/4 Fork- $39 (Vipers before 2003 don't have the fork)
New Input Shaft Seal- $10
New Output Shaft Seal- $17

The parts above we always replace when building a unit as it will give
you the ability to hold 700rwhp and 700rwtq. As for the bearings, replace
those if you have over 100K miles. Most vipers don't so it would be your
call on those.

I've also heard good things about RPM Transmissions T56 T-56 4L60E 4L65E , but obviously a local shop would be ideal...

 

[RobZilla]

Thanks for the great detailed response. I may have struck a deal with Woodhouse for an 06 SRT transmission. According to those trusted names around the VCA, it is possible to put one in an RT/10. The rear section needs to be put together in a Frankenstien sense so that the speedometer runs off the back of the 06 transmission.

I got a guy that says he can do just about anything I want... we will have to see. My fingers are still crossed on this one. I may be the first to try such a feat.