Question about 851RWHP Doug Levin Supercharged Viper ???

MaxedGTS

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Welcome LT-5@redline, that's Scott's car. I remember reading a post it made over 1200TQ on nitrous. Scott ran a 10(something) at 144 on street tires. The car is one of Doug Levin's Level 3 blower cars. DLM has a reputation for building many powerful Vipers that run on pump gas or race fuel injection. The Level 1 cars DLM builds are mostly know for good street performance. The Level 2 and 3 cars make the most powerful street-strip performance out there.

Max
 

treynor

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It's possible that it already is
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treynor

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Sorry guys, just hints and rumors until my car's done -- I have to save some of the surprise for the [re]birth announcement. It shouldn't be too much longer now...

Cheers, Ben
'01 Viper RT/10 , intake/headers/exhaust/cats/heads/rockers/NOS, 515 RWHP motor, 586 RWHP on NOS;
currently being supercharged at Doug Levin Motorsports, due back in Q1 '02
'01 Viper Daytona , wife's car.
 
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MaxedGTS

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I know DLM is building cars now with optional intercooling units. I'll have my car retrofitted with the intercooler hopefully soon. The idea of another 50 plus rear hp for a Level 1 just for a bolt on thrills me. I don't know about you guys...... I'm planning to have a very special 2003 DLM Viper
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Let's get it on!
Max
 

Chuck B 98 GTS

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I'm looking forward to upgrading my DLM level III package too. Mine puts out 700 rwhp over 800 at the engine without nitrous. When we dyno'd the first time it was in the dead-heat summer, I had driven the car to the dyno and didn't give it much time to cool down. The owner of the dyno facility was so impressed with the power for a non-intercooled blower package with the temperatures in the dyno room over 100 degrees. He said he's never had a non-intercooled blower car make that much power on his dyno. He actually mentioned to me there would be a lot more power with an intercooler, I agreed. In the winter months here the power is much more intense under boost. The difference is phenomenal. The problem in the winter is we get ice on the roads that impairs traction. I would much rather have that kind of power in the summer months with an intercooler!

Can't wait,
Chuck B.
 

Chuck B 98 GTS

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Kevin thanks for the information. I can't imagine going from 700 rwhp, adding 20% more power with an intercooler >

That's 700 rwhp + 20% more intercooled power = 840 rwhp!
OR -- 700 rwhp + 30% more (DLM Level 3) intercooled power = 860 rwhp!!!
It makes great sense to me, just got to convince my wife of this
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I may have to rush my car to DLM after the Holidays.


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treynor

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Before we get too optimistic here, let's remember that the intercooler is just one part of a system. You won't pick up a lot of additional power if you're already pushing the efficiency limits of your Supercharger, as you simply can't generate the CFM to support more power. An intercooler will let you run more timing at a given amount of boost (because the cooler intake charge quells detonation) and will reduce the car's sensitivity to heat soak (because the intake charge is cooled to close to outside ambient).

On my old Supra TT, switching from the stock intercooler to a larger aftermarket intercooler was worth about a 10% power gain, almost entirely from being able to run more timing.
 

Chuck B 98 GTS

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by treynor:
Before we get too optimistic here, let's remember that the intercooler is just one part of a system. You won't pick up a lot of additional power if you're already pushing the efficiency limits of your Supercharger, as you simply can't generate the CFM to support more power. An intercooler will let you run more timing at a given amount of boost (because the cooler intake charge quells detonation) and will reduce the car's sensitivity to heat soak (because the intake charge is cooled to close to outside ambient).

On my old Supra TT, switching from the stock intercooler to a larger aftermarket intercooler was worth about a 10% power gain, almost entirely from being able to run more timing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you have a good point Ben. But if it's over 50 and under 100 horsepower I'll take it anyway I can
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Chuck
 

MES

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Can't wait to see over 700 RWHP on low boost systems like Dan's DLM GTS and 850 RWHP on Chuck's ride (and over 1050 RWHP on Steve's level III GTS)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While the engine can be built to make that much power, unfortunately the rest of the drive train can't take it. From others I have gathered the following breaking points. It would be useful if someone with more experience would give their opinions as well.

Stock half shafts - Can break with a stock engine on slicks and even have been broken with a stock engine on stock tires. Aftermarket upgrades are available.

Rear axle - Breaks on slicks at 700-800+ rwhp no upgrade known. Unknown if it can break with stock tires (I suspect not)

Clutch - Has problems (slipping) above 750-850 rwhp unknown how long it can live with repeated high HP shifts. No upgrade known that can handle higher HP cars. There are other clutches, but its unknown if they can handle high HP cars.

Of course not all the cars will break everthing at those HP levels but that seems to be around about where things start to snap.

There are very few really high HP Vipers out there and even fewer that post to this board. Over the next year or so I predict a dramatic increase in the really high HP Vipers (650+rwhp) especially with DLM pumping them out like crazy, BTR 2 stage nitrous kit, and also several DIY supercharger kits in the not so distant future. It seems we need to come up with a solution for the rear axle and clutch, to make the rest of the car match the performance that the engine can deliver. What do you think?
 

Sniper

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Hey MES-

I've twisted a rear axle before! Had nothing to do with RWHP though, just took a sharp corner and a little bit after that I thought I had a flat tire.
 

treynor

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Kevin,
While no one would be happier than I if your predictions came true, I do believe they are overly optimistic. I will state my reasoning, and you can then poke holes in it
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First off, we need to differentiate between air mass and air volume. Air mass is a function of how many gas molecules -- nitrogen, oxygen, etc. -- are present, which is crucial as oxygen molecules combine with hydrocarbon molecules to produce the power we all crave. Air volume is a function of air mass, air pressure, and air temperature (the famous PV=nRT equation).

Now, compressors (supercharger, turbocharger, whatever) move air volume -- which is one of the two main reasons power falls off as intake air temp rises. Hotter air is less dense, meaning lower mass per unit volume, meaning less oxygen to combine with hydrocarbons and produce power. Intercooling does nothing to help this, since it's downstream of the compressor. The compressor moves a given volume of air, and that air -- cooler, denser, but no more massive -- is what emerges from the intercooler and enters the engine. Thus, I believe the statement that "cooling the intake charge in itself WILL increase power" is erroneous on vehicles without knock sensors -- the effect is NOT analagous to driving on a cool night because you're not doing anything to cool the air entering the compressor. This also was the point of my comment regarding the Supra TT ICs -- the power increase they see is NOT coming from increased airflow into the engine, because the turbos are already maxed on those cars.

The addition of an intercooler also introduces a flow restriction into the intake system, which manifests itself as an increased pressure upstream of the intercooler. This increased pressure in turns means less air flow at a given compressor RPM (see for example the compressor maps at http://www.turbofast.com.au/FlowTO4E.html for an illustration). Thus it is actually possible to LOSE power with an intercooler, if it is too small for the application.

For these reasons, "Bolting on" an intercooler to a supercharged car may, by itself, do very little. If (to pick on Max) the car in question is already tuned to run with un-intercooled air temps, then no additional power will be had by adding the intercooler, as you're not changing the mass of air entering the engine (see above) and you're not changing the timing to take advantage of the lower intake temps (see below). As a case in point, I once "bolted on" an air-to-water intercooler on my Dinan supercharged M3. That car DID have a knock sensor, so it was able to take some advantage of the IC by increasing timing advance. It went from 276 to 285 RWHP, a gain of under 4%.


That said, intercoolers DO allow an FI engine to produce more power. They do so in two related ways:

1) They allow the tuner to run more boost and/or more timing advance. The lower air intake temps quench detonation by reducing combustion chamber temperatures. This effect is most pronounced when the compressor is running at/near the high end of its efficiency range, and is heating the air substantially. Outlet temps can run 100-200F above intake in such situations, and a good intercooler can reduce that differential to 30F. This accounts for the majority of the gains to be had with an IC, but it requires a car with adaptive timing (i.e., with a knock sensor) or additional tuning.

2) They allow more air mass into the combustion chamber by increasing the density of the intake charge in the intake manifold. This effect IS analagous to the "driving on a cool night" scenario.

Finally, an expansion on my point about "systems". I don't know Max's car's configuration (sorry, Max) but if he's still running the stock fuel injectors, he won't have enough fuel to safely support 20% more RWHP. Also, if he's running stock cats he'll have progressive flow restriction from the exhaust side which will limit his HP increase. And so on. You cannot expect to just slap on an intercooler and see horsepower appear -- at the very least, you'll need intake and exhaust flow capacity and fuel system overhead to support the additional power, and you'll have to retune the car and the boost.

OK, fire away.
 

THEMASH

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LT-5@redline:
all this on PUMP gas !!! (
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DLMs cars don’t run on pump gas only; they use extra injectors that supply the motor with racing fuel at higher RPMs. A fuel cell with race fuel is used and mounted in the trunk.
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by THEMASH:
DLMs cars don’t run on pump gas only; they use extra injectors that supply the motor with racing fuel at higher RPMs. A fuel cell with race fuel is used and mounted in the trunk.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi All,
Sorry it took me so long to reply to this thread, the Holidays have allowed me to endure more work time.

Hi Mash - I think you may have pulled the content a little out of context
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. Kevin was referring to, for the most part, INTERCOOLED cars. Not all of our cars run "race fuel injection." Any given car we build "may" or "may not" utilize this option. Like any forced induction car there are many variables that would imply this option. For example, if we build a blower car from the ground up, the CR (compression ratio) will dictate a contributing factor to the construction of our system. But, this is only "one" out of many other reasons for this option. INTERCOOLING is a very safe and effective way to make horsepower. The addition of an IC (intercooler) allows high horsepower utilizing pump gas and more timing advance, hence, more power (and more, I will touch on this subject later). Once again, there are so many variables that support this IC theory in reference to our SC systems. I promise I will elaborate more on this subject at a later date, I'm on "Cinderella Time" and I gotta run!

Thanks to all of you for taking the time out to reply to this thread - Very Good Info!

Doug
 

Gerald

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TWO THINGS...


I wish you guys would speak english...
AND
looks like the view counter reset!.. woah..

Gerald
 

King GTS

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gerald:
TWO THINGS...

I wish you guys woIld speak english...
AND
looks like the view counter reset!.. woah..


Gerald

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm wit' him...
 

treynor

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Kevin,
What you're now saying -- that a properly designed and tuned intercooled FI system can produce 20% more power than a completely non-cooled system -- I agree with. My warning about undue optimism was based on earlier posts implying that just bolting on an IC would pick up 20% RWHP, and we both appear to be in agreement that that is not the case.
I've seen the link you included, and it's a good one. You will note that it says exactly what I did -- that outlet temps are 100-200F above intake, and a good IC can reduce the differential to 30F -- and goes on to draw a conclusion about safe boost levels for various CRs.
I would be interested in seeing the compressor maps for the current SCs, if you have a link to them. I have been unable to find maps for the Vortech, Paxton NOVI, and ATI units. Those would be helpful in speculating on the horsepower supportable by those units.
 

Chuck B 98 GTS

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&gt;&gt;If anyone can recall how many views this thread should have...thereabouts, I can update it and it will function normally from now on. Again, thanks Gerald...and thanks Michael!
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&lt;&lt;

Tony, it went from 1199, 1200, then back to zero this morning. I was reading another post and noticed it too.

Chuck B.
 

THEMASH

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Supercharged Vipers:
Originally posted by THEMASH:
DLMs cars don’t run on pump gas only; they use extra injectors that supply the motor with racing fuel at higher RPMs. A fuel cell with race fuel is used and mounted in the trunk.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Mash - I think you may have pulled the content a little out of context
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. Kevin was referring to, for the most part, INTERCOOLED cars. Not all of our cars run "race fuel injection."

Hey Doug,
LT-5@redline is talking about Vipers that make 1051RWHP on pump gas with no NOS?
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i dont see that happening any time soon.
What i meant was that all your high HP cars "like the ones that make 851RWHP and above, like the subject of this thread" use the extra injectors with race fuel, and dont only run on pump gas. I just wanted that point to be clear.
smile.gif

Please correct me if i am wrong.
smile.gif

Cant wait to see what kind of power a Level III DLM "intercooled" viper makes.
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MaxedGTS

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Mash, (NO flame intended) You stated: "DLMs cars don’t run on pump gas only; they use extra injectors that supply the motor with racing fuel at higher RPMs. A fuel cell with race fuel is used and mounted in the trunk."

Doug stated: "For the most part," (which I think he meant not all cars run the additional injectors). I can understand your point about the 1051 rwhp on pump gas or without nitrous. I don't know if that could be done? Who knows? I would like to see it though!

Max
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DgeViper1:
Doug, because of the way you built my system I am able to run full timing anyway (thus make good power on a bone stock engine). What advantage would an intercooler give a my car?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Dan,
I didn't mean to leave you in the dark; I'm still on limited time
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In reference to your application an IC would be beneficial to your vehicle in some degree, in short, I think you understand why I built and revised your SC system as we discussed
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. The revision of your system (with some simple technology) allowed us make power without an IC. Although, I would like to be able to get my hands back on your car in the near future. We've only skimmed the surface and thanks to ALL OF YOU for allowing DLM your trust, patience and confidence to provide you with the performance for America's #1 greatest! ... THINGS WILL ONLY GET BETTER!

Regards,
Doug
 

TomMiriViper

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipermad:
Testing for TomMiriViper

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks Tony you fixed it!!!

Happy New Year,
Tom
 

TomMiriViper

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Doug,
This weather has been colder than I have seen it in a while. The power difference with the cold weather is really a big difference for the supercharger. I'm getting spoiled. If this is an indication of what it would be like to upgrade to an intercooled system, hurry up I got to have it. Is this power what I should expect with an intercooler?

Cheers,
Tom
 

TomMiriViper

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Dan, I have the level 1 supercharger. I'm not sure of the rear wheel horsepower. I have the older system. Doug says the new ones make more power.
After I recover from the Holidays it's back to DLM for a level 2 intercooler if the price is right
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. This cold weather's got me spoiled.

Cheers,
Tom
 

TomMiriViper

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Doug,
It's amazing how people have such different tastes. I like the red and my wife hates it. The silver is outstanding although I can't see buying the first year in silver until I see it out on the road. I thought I would be safe in red!?

Cheers,
Tom
 

blkasp1

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomMiriViper:
Doug,
It's amazing how people have such different tastes. I like the red and my wife hates it. The silver is outstanding although I can't see buying the first year in silver until I see it out on the road. I thought I would be safe in red!?

Cheers,
Tom

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom,
Sadly enough I haven't yet received my certificate. Have you?
Right now I only wish I had the problem deciding on a color
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. I want my certificate! Do you know of anybody in the Adventura/Miami area that received theirs?

Let me know if you want to meet a Towers this evening. There should be a few Vipers. The weather is supposed to be nice so I'll be sporting with the top off.

Ross
 

TomMiriViper

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Ross,
Never got mine yet. Still waiting! Don't know if I can make it to the towers thing. I may be able to make it there late my wife has plans for us.

Cheers,
Tom
 

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