roll on with a 2004 Viper vs my 98?

[Rizzo]

Hey guys. We had a great run yesterday and on our favorite private road I had the chance to do a couple roll ons with an 04 SRT. I was pleasantly surprised that I pulled on him. He was not so impressed. I didnt think mine would keep up to the new one. His is stock with K and N's and mine has K and N and smooth tubes with Borla cat back and no Cats. We started in 3rd gear through 4th and I slowly pulled away. Not a lot but still I was surprised. I was also surprised at how mine pulls away from the Diablo's. I figured with them having a higher top end that from a roll on they would pull on me but I get a really good jump on them and seem to keep pulling away. We arent getting up to crazy speeds so maybe on the higher end they would start to catch up. Anyway. It was a proud day to own a GTS. I LOVE this car. I also get a ton of comments on the sound of the exhaust. Everyone loves it and I think the other 2 Vipers that were there will soon be getting their's done.

 

[black mamba1]

There has to be more to this story. This guy should have a 60 hp advantage over you, maybe 30 w/ your mods. But he still has you beat on power. Something is not right. What rpm was he at and what rpm were u at when u started? How much do each of you weigh? Vipers are very fast cars, and I am happy you did well...but you should not be pulling SRTs w/ your mods. Something aint right.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

^coming from an SRT owner^

30hp isn't much when you're talking 500hp range

maybe the SRT has low miles and isn't broken-in yet
maybe the GTS driver is shifting at a more optimal RPM
maybe the exhaust and no cats has given the GTS a torque advantage


this doesn't seem that impossible to me

 

[black mamba1]

Something aint right. Gen 2's are fast...Gen 3's are faster. ok, so he has exhaust mods....but overcoming a 60 hp difference and slightly lighter Viper does not make sense. W/ the hp this close its really a drivers race.

Vipers are fast all around. But a Gen 2 has no business pulling a Gen 3, just like a Gen 3 cannot pull a Gen 4 and the gen 1 cannot pull the gen 2.

This aint magic folks...something aint right.

 

[plumcrazy]

ive run a bunch of SRT's and only got beat once. its really up to the driver...

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

ive run a bunch of SRT's and only got beat once. its really up to the driver...

Are you stock? If not what mods?

 

[jamie furman]

That sounds about right to me, I have owned many stock GTS's and SRT's and my GTS's were always faster on the street and at the track!

 

[Red Snake]

Just face it, Gen II GTS's are faster than SRT's, lol.

 

[PaViper]

Running side by side in third gear, the speed from which you mash it down is critical....the rpm range will be different at the same speed given the different tire size. They could very easily run 10 times and be very close one way or the other.....they are both Vipers, it's all good

 

[Rizzo]

We were both in 3rd gear around 55 mph when we hit it. His car has over 30000 miles on it so its broken in. Trust me I was more surprised than he was. Another buddy of mine ( Zapper on this forum ) has a 2000 black Viper that is fairly stock and I pull on him as well. I have to say that I was most impressed so far with the 04 SRT. Its the only car I have found that will keep up with mine. Any time we try this its from roll ons. I never go off the line.... simply because I **** at launching a car so the only fair way to go is to do roll ons. I've done this with Diablo's. 911 Twin turbo's, Vette's ( No Z06's yet), a Ferrari, and so far have been unchallenged. I've even done roll ons with a lot of bikes. Last year I went through 4th gear with a new Gixxer 750 and he got the jump on me from down low but I was reeling him in once we got to 120 mph and was right at his back tire when we let off. Then I did it with my buddies hopped up Hayabusa and quickly got my a$$ handed to me. HAHA.. That thing was FAST. Anyway. The guy that has the 04 is great guy and we will surely run again and see what happens. Maybe this time we will go from 2nd gear and take it up to 5th and see what happens. Either way I am sure impressed with this car. Can't wait for next weekend.

 

[Dads Toy]

Congrats, its all fun as long as its safe.

 

[DJ'sviper]

I spoke with a very good engine builder and he said that sometimes you just get a sweat car. When they make it everything just hits the specs right and some engines will be faster than they should be. Also, has the other cars been maintained. new plugs, etc. A lot of things can factor in. Sounds like you have a sweat one.

 

[sparty116]

Isn't there a slight overall gearing penalty for the SRT10 because of the taller tires? That could play into the outcome.

 

[black mamba1]

That sounds about right to me, I have owned many stock GTS's and SRT's and my GTS's were always faster on the street and at the track!

Jamie I think you are probably one of the best drivers in this forum. There are many good ones, but I know you are one of the best.

Please explain to me: Why is a 450 hp car w/ a 3:08 rear end faster than a 510 hp car w/ a 3:07, and the weights being very close? The SRT handles better and has better brakes than the GTS, why is the GTS faster on the track?

I simply do not follow this at all guys. 60 hp is 60 hp...I dont care what Gen the Viper is, a more powerful Viper should be faster than a less powerful Viper...all else being equal. What am I missing?

 

[RTTTTed]

Not that I ever was stock, but runcraps are the enemy of the Gen3.

Biggest performance difference with engines is determined by break-in proceedures.

I bought a new ZX11 and broke it in slowly and gradually, as per instructions. When I took it to the track it went 11.13@ 133mph. Another ZX11 that was there couldn't get faster than 11.75. Both bikes were 6 months old. He beat his bike from the first time he started it and destroyed his power.

Ted

 

[black mamba1]

I understand the problem w/ run craps, but these are roll on races....and this Gen 2 is pulling the Gen 3?? Say it aint so!

 

[plumcrazy]

my car at the time had HF's,smooth tubes and muffler delete

 

[plumcrazy]

and keith, keep in mind if you gave me a 2000 rwhp viper that was capable of 7's in the right hands, id only be in the 11-12 second range.(assuming i didnt crash it) its all about the driver

 

[taillights]

Congrats on the win!!! Sounds like you guys we're having some fun... I raced my buddys viper with my little camaro once. He did'nt care much for the outcome but it was all just in fun.[Forgot to them him I was making 1000hp]

 

[C-Note]

I think A gts may be more areodynamic, that could make a huge difference.
Also I have the exact same set up, Borla exhaust no cats K&N and smooth tubes.
I know for a fact that my car is faster in the quarter than a bone stock gen3, I drove both cars and could not beat my car in one of the brand new SRT cars at VOI9.

Just my .02

 

[GR8_ASP]

Did that exact same camparo back in 2003 when my SRT had over 1000 miles. I had dyno results from each and tried to understand the reasons, as the SRT had a power advantage. Note both were exactly stock at the time (except filters on the GTS), and surprisingly had similar mileage.

Here is a graph that I made:

You will notice that if the cars start at 55 mph in 3rd the GTS will be in front and increasing the separation until about 75 mph. From 75 to 90 the cars will not gain or lose anything. At 90 the Viper will start to crawl back and by 105 mph will start to pull away. From then on the SRT will continue to pull away in all gears. Now if the event started out in 2nd gear at 55 the results would have been different. This explains why the SRT driver must use the engine rpms to his advantage. If he short shifts (like Gen I and II owners are used to) he will lose all the time.

 

[Rizzo]

I will be encouraging him to try again and again and again until he beats me...LOL.. I actually look forward to getting beat.... it will give me an excuse to get that ROE I've always wanted...hehehehe. We had a blast and cant wait to do it again soon. I will make sure that next time we try a bunch of variables. 2nd gear low rpm / high rpm, 3rd gear low and high etc. I'm sure the outcome will be different given different take off speeds. I also dont mean to say I beat him handily. It was VERY close. Maybe 1/2 to 3/4 car length through 3rd and 4th. I just slowly pulled away. It's just that I was expecting him to pull away from me and was surprised he didnt.

 

[jamie furman]

Jamie I think you are probably one of the best drivers in this forum. There are many good ones, but I know you are one of the best.

Please explain to me: Why is a 450 hp car w/ a 3:08 rear end faster than a 510 hp car w/ a 3:07, and the weights being very close? The SRT handles better and has better brakes than the GTS, why is the GTS faster on the track?

I simply do not follow this at all guys. 60 hp is 60 hp...I dont care what Gen the Viper is, a more powerful Viper should be faster than a less powerful Viper...all else being equal. What am I missing?

Man I don't know? I always assumed the SRT didn't have the low end torque to get the car out of the hole, along with the taller tires reducing the 3.07 gearing. My 3 fastest GTS's went 11.60 at about 123mph all brand new cars with under 1000 miles and all on the factory issued tires. About a year or so ago I bought a used 10k mile ACR that was bone stock and looked brand new I took it out to the track and ran a couple of 11.8's at 121 and since the car had 10k miles I opened the air box and checked the air filters which were stock and dirty so I pulled them and went 11.59 at 123 and change on the next pass, the fastest I have ever run in a stock Viper. The last time I ran a SRT was in 2005 and I couldn't break into the 11's, low 12's was the best I could do and earlier that year Jason Heffner and I went to Englishtown for the Viper thing that coincides with the Mopar Nationals and I drove a couple other SRT's one which was Joe Houess and I couldn't break 12.3 in either car? I have never been able to make an 11 second pass in a SRT, and I have never not run an 11 something in a GTS, ever at any track I have raced one on, weather it was mine or someone elses. I personally thing the HP on the SRT was over rated and the HP on the GTS was underated, that and the characteristics of where the engines make the power on the cars, and the gearing of the cars as well. I know some guys claim to have run fast times in an SRT which I believe is possible but I have never seen, I just don't know if it can be done repeatably especially in a stock car? You make reference to my driving (thanks!) so you must know I race a lot and see and make a lot of runs to make my judgement.

 

[jamie furman]

Not that I ever was stock, but runcraps are the enemy of the Gen3.

Biggest performance difference with engines is determined by break-in proceedures.

I bought a new ZX11 and broke it in slowly and gradually, as per instructions. When I took it to the track it went 11.13@ 133mph. Another ZX11 that was there couldn't get faster than 11.75. Both bikes were 6 months old. He beat his bike from the first time he started it and destroyed his power.

Ted

I don't agree with that, I think you went faster because you could ride better! I bought a brand new ZX11 and went 10.5 at 133 with a paper tag and 200 miles 70 of which I put on it driving to the track that day, so I don't agree with your theory, understand it, but don't agree with it. I now have a ZX14 and all I can say is WOW!, it makes the ZX11 feel slow but is much harder to drive fast therefor in my case making it hard to run a lot better times than the 11 even though it is much faster. There is many variables when comparing 2 vehicles that are the same, much less 2 different vehicles such as the SRT and the GTS.
IMO in the case of the GTS vs SRT, I truly believe the GTS's are the quicker cars no matter who is driving.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Pure and simple driving an SRT to its capability is much harder. You must just approach fuel shut-off engine speeds. Shift at lower rpms like a Gen II and it will indeed be slower.

Jamie - the above info is based on measured rear wheel horsepower. No under and/or over rating involved. Just the physics. Higher effective gear ratio (lower numerical) and a higher peak HP rpm makes the launch more difficult and the shift element more critical. You must change your style when driving an SRT to get the most out of it.

 

[black mamba1]

and keith, keep in mind if you gave me a 2000 rwhp viper that was capable of 7's in the right hands, id only be in the 11-12 second range.(assuming i didnt crash it) its all about the driver

You are probably right. I am shocked that the GTS are even running that close to the gen 3's.

Goes to show I know very little about the potency of the GTS's out there. I have been thinking about getting one for my wife (was gonna get her a Vette conv), but now the RT/10 seems much more attractive! Especially if they are running 11's!

 

[RTTTTed]

Well YOU are obviously a better rider than I was (quit before dying). I neglected to say that my rear tire finally stopped spinning a couple hundred feet before the finish line. Then they sprayed "Golden Rosin" down for the TF cars and I was next. Wheelied until a few hundred feet before the finish line. Absolutely no way I could have gone any faster without a wheelie bar to hold me from flipping over. Scariest drag racing I've ever done. Some assh- turned left in front of me and wrecked my bike while breaking 9 ribs. Took the insurance money and bought a 165hp snowmobile. The other ZX11 couldn't even spin the tires in second or get the front wheel off the ground. He was eliminated 1st round. I beat a couple drag bikes before I lost out. Talked to the Dealership mechanic and that's how I know why the guy 'beat the piss' out of his bike since new. Mechanic also rode both and said he went 187mph while doing the warranty "test ride". REason I believe him, now, is because while my bike was in the shop I was driving my Dump Truck home down the freeway and saw a Black Bike get 'air' going over the overpass at about 150mph. Couldn't believe anybody could drive that stupid that close to town. Never even guessed it could have been my bike until I foun out how fast he rode.

Never had my Viper over 150mph and only had my bike up to 178mph for a few seconds. Hit a Bumble Bee at 150mph once (helmet)and that felt like someone punched me in the head. Cop said, "What if you hit a bird at that speed?". Never went past 150mph after that.

Ted

 

[black mamba1]

I am supposed to race my buddy in his Roe powered Gen 1. He is supposed to be at 500 to 550 rwhp. I wasnt concerned before....

But now that I've read all this.....hmmmmmm

 

[RTTTTed]

I will be encouraging him to try again and again and again until he beats me...LOL.. I actually look forward to getting beat.... it will give me an excuse to get that ROE I've always wanted...hehehehe. We had a blast and cant wait to do it again soon. I will make sure that next time we try a bunch of variables. 2nd gear low rpm / high rpm, 3rd gear low and high etc. I'm sure the outcome will be different given different take off speeds. I also dont mean to say I beat him handily. It was VERY close. Maybe 1/2 to 3/4 car length through 3rd and 4th. I just slowly pulled away. It's just that I was expecting him to pull away from me and was surprised he didnt.

Why wait? It only takes 6 hours to instal. With a 8# and water/**** injection it'll be time to go hunting ZR1 vettes (if they ever get out on the road. Since the Gen 3s can only use a Paxton you'll have that advantage. Just never, never short shift into 3rd gear under 90mph. Did that twice and lost control both times. Rear tires 140mph and my front tire 40mph once and 85mph other time I tried it.

I raced a Z06 an found that from a 50mph rollon it was a tie - if I was in 4th gear and he was in second. You'll love it.

Ted

 

[Rizzo]

Well YOU are obviously a better rider than I was (quit before dying). I neglected to say that my rear tire finally stopped spinning a couple hundred feet before the finish line. Then they sprayed "Golden Rosin" down for the TF cars and I was next. Wheelied until a few hundred feet before the finish line. Absolutely no way I could have gone any faster without a wheelie bar to hold me from flipping over. Scariest drag racing I've ever done. Some assh- turned left in front of me and wrecked my bike while breaking 9 ribs. Took the insurance money and bought a 165hp snowmobile. The other ZX11 couldn't even spin the tires in second or get the front wheel off the ground. He was eliminated 1st round. I beat a couple drag bikes before I lost out. Talked to the Dealership mechanic and that's how I know why the guy 'beat the piss' out of his bike since new. Mechanic also rode both and said he went 187mph while doing the warranty "test ride". REason I believe him, now, is because while my bike was in the shop I was driving my Dump Truck home down the freeway and saw a Black Bike get 'air' going over the overpass at about 150mph. Couldn't believe anybody could drive that stupid that close to town. Never even guessed it could have been my bike until I foun out how fast he rode.

Never had my Viper over 150mph and only had my bike up to 178mph for a few seconds. Hit a Bumble Bee at 150mph once (helmet)and that felt like someone punched me in the head. Cop said, "What if you hit a bird at that speed?". Never went past 150mph after that.

Ted

Hi Ted. I see you are a sled head and a bike guy too. I just sold my ZX12R last week. I had it hopped up and was close to 200 hp. It was scary fast. I had it over 180 mph quite a few times but never hit a bird or a bee..LOL. I was always tucked under the windscreen at that speed anyway. I also sold my sled this year. . It was an SRX all done up by Ekholm and had the Price 1000 in it. It was making about 210 hp which in its day was HUGE but with the Apex's coming out and the turbos, 200 hp is not much anymore. I have friends running 300 hp now and some running 400 hp out of a 1000 cc engine. That is absolutely insane. I'm not sure if you have seen any of the latest videos of guys in Revy and all of the riding places out there but the places they put these sleds now is suicidal. Its all fun but I dont want to be able to get to some of the peaks they are getting to now.