EllowViper
Enthusiast
Dan, Any SCT tuning packages coming on sale this upcoming holiday season? Just asking 
SCT Tuning
- Thread starter EllowViper
- Start date
Possible, though unlikely. The software is a major factor these days, and SCT has said they wont be discounting it any longer.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Good to know. I'll be hoarding all my spare change. I think once I get back from Afghanistan in mid November I'll be in a better position to head down this road. I'll be off the net come the 11th and will be going through significant withdrawl from the Forum...
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Sad to see you leaving us for awhile Eric.
I hope that my car is back up and running by the time you get back so we can talk 2.8H upgrades again
I hope that my car is back up and running by the time you get back so we can talk 2.8H upgrades again
I have been using the SCT for about a year and have totally remapped the load/rpm/a/f curves. . My only regret is not taking off the VEC sooner. Tuning for a/f is not black magic. The GM based cars have been using HP tuners and LSI Edit for almost 15 years. It is not a viper issue, it is strictly an a/f issue, we have just been slow to embrace this great tuning tool. SCT and HP Tuners (GM)are similar with different strengths. The HP Tuner's forum is a great site to just use as a learning tool. Keep in mind it is GM based.
SCT has a tutorial (Ford based) contained within the software. If you understand the principles of a/f tuning, the only hurdle is learning the software protocols. There was an earlier comment about going from logging to a dyno for the final tune. I used to do an awful amount of dyno tuning, recently with a full logging set-up and trips to the track I personally think the dyno can be bypassed if you have the time and a safe place to generate log data. The Innovate DL32 is relatively inexpensive and contains an accelerometer that can generate hp data along with your basic PIDS.
Sorry to bring back an old topic, but I was interested if anyone had recommendations for OBD-II dataloggers. I was looking at ScanXL from http://www.scantool.net/, but they don't have any specific diagnostics support for Chrysler/Dodge cars, so I'm not sure how much data I would actually have access to. Preferably, I would be able to log RPM, intake temperatures, ignition timing, and knock counts (I have a 2005), but I'm sure that may be asking too much from a generic OBD-II logger.
My plans are to buy the SCT Pro Racer software, install an AEM UEGO wideband, and tinker with the car before throwing a Paxton on it and re-tuning. Or I may just install the Paxton and tune slowly.
-Jon
My plans are to buy the SCT Pro Racer software, install an AEM UEGO wideband, and tinker with the car before throwing a Paxton on it and re-tuning. Or I may just install the Paxton and tune slowly.
-Jon
Bird325
Enthusiast
I took my car down to ART in Buda and spent the day with them working with the SCT tune. They informed me that SCT no longer supports the Viper software! Based on lots of dyno runs followed by street runs to check the tune, I've decided to go back to an earlier PCM as my stock PCM doesn't work well on my '01 in certain areas. I think this is why the 'mail order' tunes didn't cut it. The Pro Racer package has tons of variables that you can work with, but my limited knowledge of the parameters has been a stumbling block. I'm going to leave it the pros as a blown engine would be heart breaking.
I used an SCT hand held to tune my supercharged Saleen, one of the biggest issues is (for me) safety. The guy that was giving me instructions had me do no less than 4 or 5 wots and each one consisted of 4th gear starting at 1500rpm until I hit 6000rpm and still maintaining 4th gear. Basically I had to go from 20-30 mph until I hit about 160mph. Timing the right straight away and no traffic proved to be the hardest and twilight hours you have poor visibility. Either way I was never totally satisfied with performance until dynoing.
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
This is extremely bad news for the Viper community. AEM gave up on the Vipers too. Is our only option to go MOTEC or does anybody know if Megasquirt is coming out with anything for the Viper.........
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britospeed
Enthusiast
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Pectel is a great option also.
NI-KA
Enthusiast
This is extremely bad news for the Viper community. AEM gave up on the Vipers too. Is out only otpion to go MOTEC or does anybody know if Megasquirt is comign out with anything for the Viper.........
I hope someone with direct contact (a vendor like DC Performance) with SCT can comment regarding SCTs support. Does this mean they will not offer factory support to vendors with any questions or does this mean you will no longer be able to buy an SCT for the Viper?
CSXT802
Enthusiast
Just when i was looking into an SCT. Go figure.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
My $.02. In looking at the SCT Proracer software on my PC, it is set up for many different PCMs and not just the Viper. The Model 9550 OBD-II scan tool works on a variety of cars/applications as well...and not just the Viper. When you send SCT your PCM serial number/code they unlock the software via their USB dongle so you can access those elements in your PCM that the software allows you to manipulate. Its not a Viper unique application IMO. On my SCT PRORACER software, I have access to a variety of tuning functions that the Viper does not use...like a bunch of automatic transmission functions and things like that. So again IMO, I think maybe SCT is just not further developing the Viper tuning stuff since what they currently have developed is enough from their perspective. No money in it for them to make the software more user-friendly/functional. I would hope they continue to offer what they have since like I said, I think it is a pretty "generic" product that is used across many platforms. We just won't get any more increased functionality or Viper-specfic definition files, things like that. I'm sure the real story will come out soon enough.
speedracervr4
Enthusiast
I emailed Sean Roe to see what the deal was with SCT. I'm planning on removing my Vec and going the SCT route once I upgrade my 2.4 blower to the 2.8 along with GG heads and cam. "You have at least two to three years to buy one before they do this" is what he said. Hopefully hes right.
As EllowViper mentioned, I doubt they will remove functionality that already exists in their software. They may stop technical support for Vipers specifically, but the normal Chrysler/Dodge functionality will probably remain. At some point, we may be forced to not upgrade to newer versions of the software (as some features added may cause compatibility issues with Vipers), but existing software should continue to work.
That said, I'm ordering the Pro Racer software this week to start tinkering, so I hope the 2-3 years that speedracervr4 mentioned holds true.
-Jon
That said, I'm ordering the Pro Racer software this week to start tinkering, so I hope the 2-3 years that speedracervr4 mentioned holds true.
-Jon
NI-KA
Enthusiast
Good to hear. Since I a getting ready to remove the VEC II off the GTS.
Agree w/Ellow. The SCT Software is not unique to the Viper. The handheld DCX controller may be unique but I believe the DCx controller is also used for the SRTs. So long as the controller exists than tunes from ProRacer can be uploaded to the Viper. So long as places such as DC Performance, Roe Racing, AC Performance and many others utilize the SCT software support is a non-issues IMO as these folks live/breathe SCT tuning every day.
What everyone is forgetting is that nearly all other applications other than Dodge for the XCal2 have now been moved to a newer generation Xtreme, SF3, etc.. I feel that they mean by "no longer supported" that they do not intend to move the platform over to anything newer. My guess is that as the remaining platforms are moved from XC2 to newer devices, they will eventually abandon the XC2, and thus the Viper sales as a result. I would imagine however, they they would keep a large stock of XC2's [after all, they do break from time to time] and they would continue to support the existing platform, as it currently sits- just no new developments or future upgrades.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Hey Dan...I see you didn't renew your VCA membership as well!!! Way to go!
alwayscode390
Enthusiast
Are you guys talking about the 9550 SCT Handheld Controller?
I just purchased one, and am having a hell of a time finding a hot rod shop that can get the "dongle" to help me dyno tune my car with bolt-ons.
Thanks ---
I just purchased one, and am having a hell of a time finding a hot rod shop that can get the "dongle" to help me dyno tune my car with bolt-ons.
Thanks
---AndyMac
Enthusiast
........ anybody know if Megasquirt is coming out with anything for the Viper.........
YES! There is currently a 95 rt/10 running full sequential with a Megasquirt 3 ECU. At $650 for an assembled ecm, how can you go wrong?
I think it was deleted some time ago... not really sure. In any case, unfortunately I have toned down the information posting on things like SCT, as such actions were coming back to haunt me in the form of supporting other vendor sales, and other vendors themselves learning things they didn't know in the software on our dime.
Are you guys talking about the 9550 SCT Handheld Controller?
I just purchased one, and am having a hell of a time finding a hot rod shop that can get the "dongle" to help me dyno tune my car with bolt-ons.
Thanks
Welcome to the SCT hassle if there ever was one. SCT and other non- Viper vendors freely sell the XCal empty, with no ability to support the product. End users are thinking they got a great deal... until they find out that the tune files make up most of the SCT device price, and only Viper Tuners can tune these for the Viper application- 99% of SCT shops are not capable of doing anything with them unless you have your own Pro-Racer package for them to use, and then you have to ask yourself if you want a shop unfamiliar with the Viper ECU's to being doing the tuning on yours as a "learning experiment"
That's a real shame. The Mustang community was much more open. I realize that it's a much larger market, but end users as well as shops often had very informative discussions online, over the phone and at the track. Some guys put on tuning clinics across the Country and even through webinars. Any of the Viper tuners do something similiar? Most guys serious about doing their own tuning were always willing to throw a typical mail order tune's charge towards a tuner for online/phone support when using the PRP software. I spend a few years tuning my ~800rwhp Cobra and learned quite a bit doing it. Actually just switched my license over to the Viper, but it will be an uphill battle with basically zero reference information.
Believe me, I can feel your pain from both ends. The problem is that in this day and age of online warehouse retailers, the niche market vendors like this one absolutely get bent over on things like this. The Viper SCT program was a close-knit, no tuner support, no box tunes, no nada offering. The Viper tuners who tune these cars, had to learn everything themselves or use someone else to show them the ropes. There was no help from SCT to speak of on these ECU's. That is not the case in the GM or Ford programs where SCT offers box tunes on them, and they are effectively "freeware" in many ways, with the profit being on the devices themselves with a MAP policy. The only way that Viper dealers can make any money is to sell tuning help, tunes directly, or blank hardware. If the end users buy the hardware from an online retailer for 5$ less [since there is no longer a MAP policy on Chrysler 9550's], then the vendors supply or help with tuning for free online, there is no way to stay in business. It is hard enough supporting paying customers on a product like this let alone non-customers.
That also does not take into account the fact that because there is so little information around, the tuners generally had to invest hundreds of hours developing programs and learning the software. There are very few tuners around with a truly correct understanding of the ECU, and the knowledge of those items is what separates the innovators from the imitators. That knowledge effectively become akin to "intellectual property", and in such a market, it does not make much sense to hand that over readily knowing that it can be used against you as soon as you do. Overall, you just cannot treat a market like this in the same way as a high-volume "freeware" market, unless you want to go out of business in a hurry.
With regard to your question, yes, I have indeed considered offering a tuning "class" so to speak for more standardized systems such as SCT, and we certainly do offer tuning assistance charged by the hour.
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EllowViper
Enthusiast
Well stated Dan. Absolutely spot-on. I must have spent 500 hrs trying to learn the SCT/PRP on my own via trial, error, internet research on other tuning applications, etcetera. I must have reflashed my PCM a hundred times so far. One could argue that the time I have 'wasted' doing this myself would have been better spent by letting folks like you or M2 or other SCT-savvy individuals just do it for a fee. Maybe so but this is my hobbie so those time & effort costs are just part of the ownership experience. But with that said, I can now basically do what I need to do in regards to tuning. Do I know all the database inter-relationships or how the definition fields relate to each other? Can I explain them? Absolutely not...thus the trial and error and hundreds of reflashes trying to determine how one variable effects the tune. And I don't take notes so its all in my head. Would I pay $100 to have a complete manual on the PCM? Yes...at this point probably $500 !!! SCT really missed the boat in this regard. They developed the software for folks like me to learn enough to be dangerous. Would I tune someone elses car knowing what I know? Absolutely not. Would I encourage others to give it a try? Absolutely. Its not really hard to do and if you have the time and ability to think things through, it can be a lot of fun. As far as the intellectual property aspect, that is indeed priceless but I think a guy could sell some tutorials if they could control unauthorized distribution/reproduction.
It may not be the best, but, I did screen shots (Print Key) of the help screens. I think I have over 50 pages, again not the best, but it did help the start to feel comfortable process.
Dan:
kind of interesting, as we discussed previously the SCT fuel modifiers for IAT did not seem significant because the tables only impacted a/f for extreme high IA temps. I experimented and reduced them, it did stabilize the wot a/f. I no longer get the typical 10% swing in a/f for the 70-90 degree ambient air temps.
Dan:
kind of interesting, as we discussed previously the SCT fuel modifiers for IAT did not seem significant because the tables only impacted a/f for extreme high IA temps. I experimented and reduced them, it did stabilize the wot a/f. I no longer get the typical 10% swing in a/f for the 70-90 degree ambient air temps.
