T&D Rocker Installation Questions

[ViperTony]

I'm finally getting to installing my T&D 1.7 rockers. I have some questions for those of you that have installed the T&D's on a GenII.

Background:
- Stock engine except for exhaust and headers. Stock heads, valves, etc. I'm not changing valves, no head work, etc. Stock engine (for now).

Checking for Proper Geometry:

- The T&D rocker kit includes a shaft-height gage used to determine the proper geometry. In order to get an accurate measurement, the gauge must come in contact with the top of the valve stem. Do I have to remove the valve spring retainer, retaining locks and valve springs or is there another accurate method of checking the geometry?

- When removing the valve springs and checking the geometry I obviously don't want to drop a valve. I understand the valve needs to be fully seated when checking the geometry but is keeping the piston at TDC enough to prevent a valve from dropping?

- If the rocker stand needs to be raised I have plenty of shims that came with the kit. But if the stands need to be lowered, T&D recommends removing a 'corresponding' amount of material from the stud bosses on the cylinder head. I read a recent post by Greg Good that indicates its ok if the T&D's sit a little higher as long as they don't run off the edge of the valve tip. I'm curious as to how many Viper owners with a stock engine had to lower their T&D stands due to incorrect geometry and what was done to correct the geometry.

Measuring Pushrod Length:

Once the stands have been installed with the proper geometry I will measuring for new pushrods. Thanks to Dan Lessier I've decided to go with Trend pushrods and I have a pushrod length checker on the way. I'm following T&D's instructions for checking length which seem straightforward. Question: When adjusting the pushrod checker should it be snug against the adjuster? T&D is not very clear on this.

Oil Pan Baffle:
I don't see the T&D's fitting under the valve covers without hitting the baffles. Is it OK to simply remove the baffles? What have you done for this?

Is it necessary to soak the rockers in 30w oil before installing? I think read that for Harland Sharps.

That's it for now. I'm sure I'll have a few questions on setting valve lash but we'll cross that bride later.

Thanks.
- Tony

 

[black mamba1]

Tony your car is fast enough! You gave me hell yesterday! Why bother w/ the rockers?

 

[Red Snake]

If you are not using shims the T&Ds will either barely clear or will barely hit the baffles. I have heard that removing the baffles is a bad idea. Not real sure of all the reasons why. Maybe splash back into the vent hose.

You have several options. Spacers are an option but are very expensive at around $500. Some people run a double set of valve cover gaskets. May be asking for leakage trouble.
Or you can bolt them down and see where they are hitting and then take a ball peen hammer and just put a real small dent in the baffle where they are hitting. It's that close. Doesn't take much to make them clear.

T&Ds were on my car when I bought it and they did not hit the baffles. I did an exchange for a freshly powder coated set and then they barely hit the baffles. I opted for the small dents with a ball peen hammer and it worked like a champ.

 

[Boxer12]

Hammer? Why not just grind a bit off with a dremel tool?

 

[VENOMIS]

Because the baffle is paper thin. Its the adjusting nut that comes in contact with the baffle. Better to remove it or dimple it in with a hammer and punch.

 

[1TONY1]

On the baffle....after doing it multiple ways I like....

Cut the baffle with tin snips .... make a cut about an inch or so long near the mounting screw where the adjuster nut would hit and then slightly bend it up in between the cuts to clear the nuts. There will be two cuts between/near the screws. You are leaving it where the mounting screws will still work fine. If this doesn't make sense I can explain better after I glance at old set of valve covers. This is better than dimpling.....metal will start to split. Better than cutting holes for nuts to travel into.

 

[ViperTony]

On the baffle....after doing it multiple ways I like....

Cut the baffle with tin snips .... make a cut about an inch or so long near the mounting screw where the adjuster nut would hit and then slightly bend it up in between the cuts to clear the nuts. There will be two cuts between/near the screws. You are leaving it where the mounting screws will still work fine. If this doesn't make sense I can explain better after I glance at old set of valve covers. This is better than dimpling.....metal will start to split. Better than cutting holes for nuts to travel into.

Thanks Tony, I think I get it. Basically I'm making slits in the baffle above each adjuster and bending the slits up for clearance. I'll mark up the cut locations with a marker and post for confirmation when I get to that point. Thanks.

 

[1TONY1]

Thanks Tony, I think I get it. Basically I'm making slits in the baffle above each adjuster and bending the slits up for clearance. I'll mark up the cut locations with a marker and post for confirmation when I get to that point. Thanks.

I had to go look

There are five screws on the adjuster side of the baffle. Remove baffle, make a slit on each side of each screw leaving around 3/8" or 1/2" to remain under the screws. Reinstall the baffle and bend up as needed. Except on the ends you can bend the baffle up to clear two rockers. Should just be ten slits I think.

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

ViperTony, the rockers will sit a little too high with the stock length valves so you don't really need to waste your time checking the geometry unless you just want to. Bolt the stands down and check for pushrod length. Remember that the adjuster should not be more than 2 turns out after the preload is set.

Also, do yourself a favor and put 3/8" diameter pushrods in it. They'll clear the ports. Although they are slightly heavier, they are more rigid, flex less, and calm the valvetrain down some. The pushrod is one place in the valvetrain you want to add some mass to.

 

[ViperTony]

ViperTony, the rockers will sit a little too high with the stock length valves so you don't really need to waste your time checking the geometry unless you just want to. Bolt the stands down and check for pushrod length. Remember that the adjuster should not be more than 2 turns out after the preload is set.

Also, do yourself a favor and put 3/8" diameter pushrods in it. They'll clear the ports. Although they are slightly heavier, they are more rigid, flex less, and calm the valvetrain down some. The pushrod is one place in the valvetrain you want to add some mass to.

Greg, I'll feel better knowing I checked the geometry so I'll probably check it anyway. I am definitely going with 3/8" double-taper Trend pushrods from Dan Lesser. Thanks for the tips and I've been reading your posts on the subject...lots of great info. - Tony

 

[ViperTony]

So I'm moving along on my T&D rocker installation and I noticed some more graffiti on my engine. When I took the valve covers off I found some numbers marked in blue on each of my intake runners. Anyone know what these mean? They are not cylinder numbers. Just curious.

 

[plumcrazy]

mine had same color writing, but couldn't figure out what it meant.

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

It is written by Tibeten monks and denotes the date of the end of the world.

 

[ViperTony]

It is written by Tibeten monks and denotes the date of the end of the world.

I'm beginning to wonder that myself! There's one particular mark, I'll post later,that looks like the script used in the Predator movies. In fact, it looks very close to the battle mark one of Predators carved into his forehead during the move Alien vs. Predator. I think I've stumbled upon an archaeological find here.

 

[ViperTony]

Well, I was finally able to complete my T&D rocker installation this weekend. It a took a while to get the puhrods from Trend but Dan was able to get them to me before the weekend. To set valve lash, which I'll post details a little later, it took exactly two turns of the adjuster screw. After installing the valve covers and letting the engine warm up to operating temp I could not hear anything out of the ordinary in regards to valvetrain noise. I followed JackB's procedure here http://forums.viperclub.org/illustrated-upgrades/602295-adjusting-roller-rockers-made-easy.html and I will say his procedure for adjusting 4 valves at a time did simplify the process a lot and left little room for error.

I also found that I didn't have to modify the valve cover baffles as the rockers don't hit the baffles. Is there a break-in procedure that I should follow with the T&D rockers? Should I reset the PCM or let it learn about this mod on its own?

thanks. - Tony

 

[dave6666]

Are we going to get any before and after dyno numbers?

 

[ViperTony]

Are we going to get any before and after dyno numbers?

Yes, as well as before and after dyno numbers with 70mm TB's as soon as I get these rockers broken in.

 

[ViperTony]

So I've had the rockers on now for about 2 weeks and I definitely feel a seat of the pants change in power. However, I'm noticing quite a bit of idle-hang after lifting off the throttle. This never happened before the rocker installation. Could this be due to the PCM learning about the upgrade or is it possible that I didn't set valve lash correctly? I did not go more than 2 turns with the adjuster, no more than one turn past initial pre-load. Perhaps I need to back off the adjusters a bit? I've put on about 200 miles since the upgrade and just took off the valve covers to double-check everything. It looks like everything is getting oiled nicely.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Rockers would have no effect on idle hang, especially on a hydraulic lifter car where they cannot influence running at all so long as they are within range.

Did you install 70mm at the same time? If so... I would be looking there.

 

[ViperTony]

Thanks Dan. No, I didn't install the TB's yet as I wanted to make certain the rockers are OK first.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thanks Dan. No, I didn't install the TB's yet as I wanted to make certain the rockers are OK first.

Hi Tony,

In that case, the idle hang should subside as the computer re-trims the adaptives so long as the rockers are all adjusted correctly.

However, if you have a mind to do so, check all of the rockers to make sure that the lifters arent bottomed out. When the cam is on the base circle, you should be able to collapse the lifter a little by pushing firmly for a few seconds on the back of the rocker, lifting the tip off the valve. If you have any valves that are being held open all the time, you may need to reset the rockers with a little less pre-load.

 

[ViperTony]

Dan, thank you for the tip as I found a few valves that were slightly over-loaded. I ended up backing off the pre-load about 1/4 turn. I don't believe it was enough to cause valves to be unseated but at least they're all set consistently now. I think what happened was that the adjuster screw got turned further than I wanted when I torqued down the screw jam nut. Here's what I do to find TDC/Base circle:

- Turning the crankshaft, I find TDC on the cylinder I want to adjust. TDC occurs shortly after the intake valve closes.
- I then rotate the crankshaft so the piston is an additional 1/4" past TDC.
- I then set pre-load and valve lash on the intake/exhaust valves.

In fact, using JackB's chart below, I can adjust two cylinders, 4 valves at a time:

 

[Viper Specialty]

Good Deal, sounds like its all sorted out! That is a handy chart, I havent seen it around before... though I am pretty used to the order by now, haha.

 

[ViperTony]

Good Deal, sounds like its all sorted out! That is a handy chart, I havent seen it around before... though I am pretty used to the order by now, haha.

The chart is for noobs like myself. Jack posted this a while back and there's an "Adjusting Roller Rockers Made Easy" in the how to section. Good info. Thanks to Dan and everyone that had patience helping me through this.