VIPER COUPE HP INCREASE

Viperfreak2

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Fishy is right. Z06 ups the SRT-10 by 5, then DC has the engine retested to up the Z06 by 5. Me thinks the SAE test might have a few kickbacks in the system.

On second thought, I can't imagine DC spending money (in black briefcase) to do this. I guess it's like all euro car makers. They want a 400 hp number (in Europe) on the M5, 360, etc which translates to 396 or 394 here. I think DC just wanted a round number of 500 when the car was intro'd and now they 'certify' the true number.

SO, following the logic. If you buy a new coupe (or have a used SRT-10) and you dyno much less than 433.5 to the rear wheels, was/is your engine certified?? Are you entitled to a refund/repair if the power is less? Hmmm, could it open up a can of Mustang Cobra style whupass?
 

Nsane1

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What a crock... My SRT is only 500, and they change the test to get to get 510 out of the exact same thing that was 500 a week ago. Talk about grade inflation.

That's how you try and beat GM, change the test? Ugh!
 

Joseph Houss

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What a crock... My SRT is only 500, and they change the test to get to get 510 out of the exact same thing that was 500 a week ago. Talk about grade inflation.

That's how you try and beat GM, change the test? Ugh!

Guys, I think you're loosing the theory here:

DC DIDN'T CHANGE THE TEST....

It is an across the board change by the feds!!!!! Chevy tested their Z06 almost immediately after the testing change was invoked.... and it substantiated a 505 HP engine.... and they were VERY happy to report that.

USING THE SAME MANDATED TESTING PROCEDURE Dodge then invoked the same test (probably by request of the gov't)....AND:

THE SRT-10 REPORTED A 510 HP engine.

NO SNEAKY STUFF HERE! Just a new test (if anyone has info as to how they changed the testing it would be interesting to find out more) that EVERY motor will be judged by.

The bottom line: APPLES TO APPLES the Viper now is rated at 510HP and the Z06 is rated at 505HP.

Done
 

YouWish

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I'm growing quite tired of all this B.S. I think I will sell my Viper and get a Metro. LOL
 

BobK898

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Regardless, with the weight differential that exists, having 5 more HP and celebrating that as a win rings hollow.
 

RS27J9A

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this is pathetic. Wow 510 horse due to a new test. Who cares you can make up formulas for calculating any numbers you want. The Vette is still going to be faster.
 

VENOMAHOLIC

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I respectfully disagree with you Casey. If DC comes out with a "Coupe" 10 yrs after the GTS that happens to be painted blue with white stripes, it is a GTS in Viperland. I really hope I am wrong in my pessimism. The SRT10 did have good performance improvements over the Gen II even though the looks strayed a little far IMO from the 1989 concept Viper. But also IMO what defines a Viper is that in factory trim they are able to outperform modded vettes and even some $200k+ supercars. I do firmly think adding $10k to the price is pure exploitation of us unless there is improvement in something other than adding a fixed roof and a spoiler.
 

Mach10

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Splitting hairs with the performance between the new Z06 and the coupe, IMO.....
Get what you like the best and everybody be happy!!! :2tu: :D :usa:
 

getbit

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approximately $5000.00 of the MSRP of the Blue/white cars is for the First Edition package...Standard Coupes should be cheaper...in fact, without stripes, it should be about the same MSRP as the SRT10. The 2006 B/W Coupe has nearly the same sticker price as my 2001 ACR ($90,100.00). Where is the big price increase 5 years later?
 

Bwright

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Joseph Houss is right when he indicates that Dodge did not do anything slick or underhanded in recalibrating the Viper’s power rating. Quite the opposite, they stepped up to the revised test and it turns out their car made slightly more power than expected under the new standards. This means that Dodge never gamed the old test to inflate their horsepower numbers. By comparison, it seems that many Asian automakers did game the system and are now reporting lower numbers across the board (See detnews.com).

It is quite unlikely that there will be a horsepower increase before the next generation Viper. A significant power upgrade (+5%) will likely necessitate a $10mm emissions recertification. If Dodge had a hard time ponying up $6mm to get a basic top on the car (as was reported elsewhere on this forum) then you can rest assured that $10mm extra is not forthcoming any time soon. There is simply no business case to support such a thing now. Remember, the SRT-10 is three years into its production run. So Dodge would have to try and spread the emissions recertification cost over the remaining run of about 4-5 years worth of Vipers as they have already missed the first three years of production. With year-to-date Viper sales down an astonishing 25% year-over-year the likelihood that there will be enough sold in the future to justify the cost fails the common sense test.

As I have said before you have got to stop comparing yourself to GM and the Z06 and instead focus on survival at this point. The Corvette program spent 1,000 hours on wind tunnel testing at $25,000 an hour. Yes, that’s $25mm on aerodynamics alone. The race team is fed to the tune of over $20mm a year. The Corvette's development budget and reach are enormous and, as a result, the vehicle’s profit is significant. The horsepower race is pointless now as it takes more than sheer horsepower to sell a car. The Viper has always had top horsepower numbers but still the inexorable sales slide into the abyss proceeds unabated.

DCX had to close the CAAP when the unsold supply of Vipers got to 200 days. Month-to-month July-August 2005 the day’s supply went from 101 days to 144. If that rate continues another plant shutdown will come in a month. Though they necessarily put a brave face on it, the company can only tolerate so many of these unfortunate facts before there is a Come to Jesus meeting. By comparison GM has run the Bowling Green facility on overtime since the C6’s inception and, as such, barely has the additional ability to meet surging Z06 demand which is fast approaching levels of absurdity that has left even GM’s most optimistic forecasters slack-jawed.

Every Viper production decision is now severely dollar driven and those dollars are quite literally dwindling by the month. All too many Viper owners will still be chasing the horsepower chimera at full speed when the program finally goes over a cliff. Porsche, Ferrari and Corvette are having no trouble at all selling their cars, the first two often at substantial prices beyond the Viper which offers more horsepower than almost all of them. Yet they are all enjoying record sales while the struggling Viper’s future is in doubt.

This is not a horsepower issue folks and it never has been.
 

Viperfreak2

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Agreed. HP isn't the reason the Viper is in trouble. It's planning. IF DC had planned a 'Firepower' to go into production in the SRT-10's 2nd year, there would be no issue. Most manufacturers learned long ago that seasonal or niche cars must have flexibility in the plant production. ALWAYS make mulitple models so that if one is slow, the other can keep the lines running. Why didn't they keep the Prowler going until the HEMI was available....ugh. Can you imagine a 425hp SRT-8 Prowler? That would have been awesome!
 

Warfang

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There is simply no business case to support such a thing now.

That's TOTAL BS. What's the business case for the McLaren, the AMG SL65, and every other HP increase in the ENTIRE Benz line? Geez... like we need old folks in six-figured luxury cars drag racing. :rolleyes:

I don't hear DC complaining about recertifying the E55 to run nose to nose with a Viper.
 

Bwright

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That's TOTAL BS. What's the business case for the McLaren,

Charge $452,750.

the AMG SL65, and every other HP increase in the ENTIRE Benz line?

If you compare the cost of the SL600 to the SL65 you will have a rough idea of what recertification costs are by limited volume. The SL600 is $131,675, an SL65 is $185,775. This difference represents a 41% increase which likely reflects not only recertification costs but crash, low build volume and exchange rate price revaluations. Mercedes is not afraid to recertify engines within a model year for AMG’s cars because their clientele at that level can handle those percentage markups. Take any AMG car you care to cite then do the math as to the percentage price increase over the car immediately below it. Take half of that percentage price increase then imagine that percentage increase on the SRT-10. Keep in mind that Dodge is having considerable difficulty selling the car at its existing price.

I don't hear DC complaining about recertifying the E55 to run nose to nose with a Viper.

:confused:

Probably because to Daimler, and anyone else with a clue, the notion of the MERCEDES E55 mid-size luxury sedan being designed with even the faintest thought of competing with the compact 2-seat DODGE Viper sports car fails the common sense test.
 

FikseGTS

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well.... maybe you haven't seen what the E55's are capable of...... they will compete in a straight line... I've personally seen a stock E55 run a 12.1 @ 118MPH..... so if you happen to line up against one on the street, you better bring your A+ launch on... otherwise you'll be whining about getting smacked by a luxury 4 door car that costs about the same as the Viper....

as for the new Coupe, the extra 10HP means nothing when it weighs 300 pounds more than the Vette.... and the new coupe is not a GTS.... the new Couple will probably be seriously humbled when they test it heads up against the new Z06....

not to mention that all of the older SRT10's will now drop in value since they have less HP current SRT10's...

If they want to sell more Viper's, put in the AMG V12 Twin-Turbo...... it would SELL....


Probably because to Daimler, and anyone else with a clue, the notion of the MERCEDES E55 mid-size luxury sedan being designed with even the faintest thought of competing with the compact 2-seat DODGE Viper sports car fails the common sense test.
 

GR8_ASP

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"not to mention that all of the older SRT10's will now drop in value since they have less HP current SRT10's... "

Same engine , same horsepower, new rating. Doubtful that would impact value.

Glad to see you standing up for your Viper brethren. Not!
 

DSR207

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"not to mention that all of the older SRT10's will now drop in value since they have less HP current SRT10's... "

SAE re-defining horsepower

The Society of Automotive Engineers has tightened standards for measuring horsepower, SAE periodically revises the thousands of standards it certifies; horsepower was revised in August 2004 to close loopholes for things like backpressure from exhaust systems, the use of super-lubricity oil in the engine, the number of accessories that must be hooked up during a test—all the things dynamometer monkeys think of to get a better power rating. SAE also added a requirement for an independent witness to certify the horsepower testing."

As Ron said, same engine, new figures, applies to all SRT10S
 

Warfang

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well.... maybe you haven't seen what the E55's are capable of...... they will compete in a straight line... I've personally seen a stock E55 run a 12.1 @ 118MPH..... so if you happen to line up against one on the street, you better bring your A+ launch on... otherwise you'll be whining about getting smacked by a luxury 4 door car that costs about the same as the Viper....

as for the new Coupe, the extra 10HP means nothing when it weighs 300 pounds more than the Vette.... and the new coupe is not a GTS.... the new Couple will probably be seriously humbled when they test it heads up against the new Z06....

not to mention that all of the older SRT10's will now drop in value since they have less HP current SRT10's...

If they want to sell more Viper's, put in the AMG V12 Twin-Turbo...... it would SELL....


Probably because to Daimler, and anyone else with a clue, the notion of the MERCEDES E55 mid-size luxury sedan being designed with even the faintest thought of competing with the compact 2-seat DODGE Viper sports car fails the common sense test.

E55's are absolutely amazing... I'd get one if I wasn't so upset that DC could care less that a luxo-car (and a compact one at that) can match/toast what is supposed to be one of their own supercars. It's like DC making a Dodge Stratus faster than their precious Benz McLaren... NEVER happen. Then WHY an E55? Certifications cheaper on a 4-door sedan? No amount of justification makes sense to me other than the krauts don't like the American branded cars being superior.

The SRT group is a joke. Other than the Viper, the SRT-4 is the only real OMG car that they've made. The rest is "stick a hemi here... stick a hemi there... boost it up a bit and call it special with it's own badging". And in the Jeep SRT-8's case, "It tows less, and is NOT trail-rated." What's the point other than to chip away Cayenne's lead in speed for an SUV? It's not worth diluting your brand especially after spending all that money promoting "Trail-Rated" for EVERY Jeep.

Just compare SRT to AMG... Chrysler and Dodge sells more units than Mercedes and Maybach. What on EARTH is the business case for certifying massive increases in HP for lesser selling cars when people would buy them regardless and make more on the markup? People buy luxury cars for luxury and good power/handling, not exotic supercar-level preformance.

Screw the AMG V12 (as nice as it is). Crank the V10 up to 650HP naturally. THAT, my friends, would sell. For $99k, I can STILL sell more units than DC can with their new coupe at $89k.
 

FikseGTS

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of course we know this.... but to the general public..... it's got an extra 10HP..... I'm just trying to instigate a little... :)


"not to mention that all of the older SRT10's will now drop in value since they have less HP current SRT10's... "

Same engine , same horsepower, new rating. Doubtful that would impact value.

Glad to see you standing up for your Viper brethren. Not!
 

FikseGTS

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well.... it's VERY clear, that is NOT going to happen..... if they can't afford the development of a more powerful V10 motor then use something that's ready to go...... If both were available, I bet a V12 Twin-Turbo Viper would outsell the current V10 Viper.....


Screw the AMG V12 (as nice as it is). Crank the V10 up to 650HP naturally. THAT, my friends, would sell. For $99k, I can STILL sell more units than DC can with their new coupe at $89k.
 

Warfang

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well.... it's VERY clear, that is NOT going to happen..... if they can't afford the development of a more powerful V10 motor then use something that's ready to go...... If both were available, I bet a V12 Twin-Turbo Viper would outsell the current V10 Viper.....


Screw the AMG V12 (as nice as it is). Crank the V10 up to 650HP naturally. THAT, my friends, would sell. For $99k, I can STILL sell more units than DC can with their new coupe at $89k.

The only thing clear at this point is that DC won't do a damn thing other than winking and nudging. At this point, ANYTHING is an improvement... heck, take the passenger seat and radio out and claim a hundred pound reduction in weight! :rolleyes:
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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There is simply no business case to support such a thing now.

This is not a horsepower issue folks and it never has been.

Bwright, you make some excellent well-thought points. I'm glad you weren't part of the decision making process in the beginning or the Viper would have never made it to production.

Get my point?

It's an image car and Dodge won over folks like me with it. I just hope there's enough of us around to keep it going.
 

STUGOTS

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well.... it's VERY clear, that is NOT going to happen..... if they can't afford the development of a more powerful V10 motor then use something that's ready to go...... If both were available, I bet a V12 Twin-Turbo Viper would outsell the current V10 Viper.....


Screw the AMG V12 (as nice as it is). Crank the V10 up to 650HP naturally. THAT, my friends, would sell. For $99k, I can STILL sell more units than DC can with their new coupe at $89k.

The only thing clear at this point is that DC won't do a damn thing other than winking and nudging. At this point, ANYTHING is an improvement... heck, take the passenger seat and radio out and claim a hundred pound reduction in weight! :rolleyes:


LMAO

I know do SOMETHING DC jesus, they are just going to sit on their a$$eS winking and nodding whil ethe vettes spanks the viper FOR THE FIRST TIME idiots
 
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sween

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I bet a V12 Twin-Turbo Viper would outsell the current V10 Viper.....

its a good thing that the viper is not a V12. if it was it wouldnt be a viper. thats the main thing that all vipers have in common is that big bada$$ V10. also the reason why the viper isnt getting more HP is because for the new coupe they asked for 30 milliion dollars and you know what they got 6 million, thats only a 5th of what they asked for. i bet if they got the 30million the viper would get hp increase. the problem is they dont got the money
 

vipah

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There is simply no business case to support such a thing now.

This is not a horsepower issue folks and it never has been.

Bwright, you make some excellent well-thought points. I'm glad you weren't part of the decision making process in the beginning or the Viper would have never made it to production.

Get my point?

It's an image car and Dodge won over folks like me with it. I just hope there's enough of us around to keep it going.

The problem is that now bean counters are running the show and image doesn't add into the equation. They only look at the bottom line. Since there are no risk takers it is an easy decision to make, and no one will get fired for cutting a product that isn't making money. On the other hand if someone puts their neck on the line and creates the best image car on the planet and it doesn't make money, they are screwed. I don't care how many people it drives into the show room, there will be some other person itching to throw him under the bus.
 

Warfang

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The problem is that now bean counters are running the show and image doesn't add into the equation. They only look at the bottom line.

How can you say that when they seem to have money to go around justifying other lame-brained Mercedes projects? Does the SL65 AMG make any sense? A drag racing luxury coupe. :rolleyes:

Or is it an image thing? How in the world did THAT get by the bean counters?
 

vipah

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The problem is that now bean counters are running the show and image doesn't add into the equation. They only look at the bottom line.

How can you say that when they seem to have money to go around justifying other lame-brained Mercedes projects? Does the SL65 AMG make any sense? A drag racing luxury coupe. :rolleyes:

Or is it an image thing? How in the world did THAT get by the bean counters?

I bet they make money on each one they sell. Not to mention it is probably a German counting the beans. :D :D :2tu:
 

AviP

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With year-to-date Viper sales down an astonishing 25% year-over-year the likelihood that there will be enough sold in the future to justify the cost fails the common sense test.
What would you expect when 10 years (from 96 - 2006) nets only 50hp (now 60hp) in a more subdued package? The SRT-10 is a Viper without the drama.

The Viper has always had top horsepower numbers but still the inexorable sales slide into the abyss proceeds unabated.
It has the stuff of legends in terms of performance but has lost that timeless look. Just look at existing Viper owners comments. Many lined up to buy the GTS as their 2nd Viper and stopped short with the SRT.

Porsche, Ferrari and Corvette are having no trouble at all selling their cars, the first two often at substantial prices beyond the Viper which offers more horsepower than almost all of them. Yet they are all enjoying record sales while the struggling Viper’s future is in doubt.
Porsche never changes it's classic 911's styling dramatically. As such a 911 always looks quite close to a past or future 911. It helps that they up the performance as they go. And it's racing pedigree over the decades is probably without equal.

Ferrari always comes out with appealing looks and performance. It's racing program while not as widespread as Porsches, definitely showcases it's performance and technology (sidebar:why are they in the shop all the time?).

Corvette improved substantially in hp and has a manufacturer backed endurance racing program. With a much, much bigger corvette fan base, it's not surprising that potential buyers are drawn to a regular Vette or Z06 from Vipers, Porsches and maybe even Ferraris. Our manufacturer racing program is focusing on drifting with *** crap! The way I see it, we will soon be drifting into oblivion.
 

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