water methanol injection installed

[fast?]

i went up to utah thursday to get utah viper's methanol water injection system installed. todd gave me a ride in his car and the system was very impressive. we were driving around and his intake temps rose to as high as 210-220. just from hitting his purge his temp would drop at least 50 degrees or more(depending how long he held the purge). ok then he showed me what the system was capable of. i was watching the intake temp gauge and when ever he hit the throttle the temps would drop like a rock. just one example was a 210 degree start going down to 110 in a matter of seconds. the intake temp would hold that low temp for awhile even when cruising and off the **** water.

we then jump into my car(01 rt vipair air-70mm tb-td 1.7 rockers-bb 1 3/4 headers-corsa-roe blower 7lb). my air fuel was way lean so we did one run so he could see. oh by the way, i have the new AEM wideband with the 2" gauge that is mounted to my a pillar(elite ms) that works perfectly. the only draw back to this wideband is that it does not read anything richer than 11.0. it has a nice white face dial with silver bezel, a sweeping reading and also a digital reading numeric reading. after one adjustment todd gets me to the desired a/f. we then go to the closed coarse and g tech a few runs. my launches were horrible so we will just go on.

the next day we have the system installed. after the install we hook up a portable boost gauge to check how much boost i am making. we make a pull and the boost is 6 1/2 creeping to a little over 7. we then make a runs so we can tune with the water methanol injection.we slowly start adding timimg and taking out fuel. within a couple of adjustments we have the car running 11.0-11.3. we set it there since elevation there was 4500ft and vegas is only 2100ft and it seemed a/f was affected by -.5 up there.

we checked the boost and now i was boosting 8.5 starting and when it hit 5000rpm it was going up to 10lbs. before the m/w install i had to get off the throttle @5200 -5400 rpms because my injectors were maxed. now i can take it up to 6000rpms and the a/f was still 11.0. we did some g-tech runs but could not get traction or a good launch. the car was pulling harder though and we got rid of the hiccup it was having without the m/w. it was late so i dropped off tood and i headed back to vegas.

yesterday i went to meet our usual guys that we do our sunday rolls with. all the fast cars were down so i did not get to see how much fatser the car is. i did give a friend a ride and we did some runs so he could feel the difference. he was very surprised at the pull my car had now. it did not pull harder before but now the higher the rpm the more my car pulled. we headed back and after i parked we put our hands on the blower and it was cold! the temps outside was sunny and 80's. he was really shocked about that.

so, i have more boost now and i have my timing advanced 6 1/2 degrees more than i had on 100 octane gas. i don't have to upgrade my fuel system and i can rev it to the max. i am going to advance more timing this weekend and maybe even put on the 8lb pulley i have. i would do more but i have those damn cast pistons.

i want to thank todd for all his help. he took off work early on thursday and most of friday. he also let me use his turbo diesel while i was up there.

ps. todd i checked my air pressure yesterday and it was set at 37 pds. i guess the tire place put a little to much air in it.

 

[fast?]

i think todd is still in the process of releasing this system but when it comes out i highly recommend it.

 

[MannyC]

Nice Trent. I want another ride in your car. It was really fast last time. By the way, what are you using for your methanol?

-Manny

 

[Torquemonster]

Great post Trent. Utah has spent a lot of time working on this and he really has something valuable for the Viper community. It promise's to be the most cost effective and efficient intercooler setup for the Roe SC cars especially and I'd consider it a must have for the Roe cars - as who wouldn't want a cooler intake and an extra 6.5 degrees timing at full boost?!

It'd also work on any boosted Viper.

 

[fast?]

i know there are a few kits out there but no complete kit for a viper. it will be a trial and error. todd has alot of r/d on his and it is a proven combination. 10 mph at the track is unbelievable for the price. i realize i wont get that much but you never know. a 100 degree difference in intake temperatures means serious power.

manny i don't get your question.

 

[dansauto]

Isn't this the kit STS is making? I just bought a turbo lube kit from them for my TT project and it was done very well!!

 

[utahviper]

Trent I really appreciate the compliments but I want to see results. I just can't believe how much timing he is running, 9.5 degrees advance in the midrange. That is truely amazing on a cast piston car with not even a hint of detonation.

Please realize that this kit is not ready for sale to everyone but we are making progress. This will only be available through authorized dealers. If you want to get the most potential out of the system then you have to have a tuner install it and tune it. There are dramatic gains to be made but you have to know the limits of how far you can go.

The positive points about this system is that you won't have to upgrade your fuel system ever, you can run more boost, and it intercools.

Manny,

He uses racing grade methanol.

 

[MoparMan]

Trent - are you going to Mopars at the Strip? If you don't mind, I'd like to get a look at your setup.

 

[ronviper]

Utahviper doesn't running more boost means you have to add more fuel, colder charge means denser air therefore more fuel is needed.Why would the fuel system not need to be upgraded?

 

[utahviper]

Ronviper,

You are correct when you say that more boost means you have to add more fuel. The water/methanol system is the fuel system as well. Methanol is 110 octane fuel.

 

[1TONY1]

Utahviper doesn't running more boost means you have to add more fuel, colder charge means denser air therefore more fuel is needed.Why would the fuel system not need to be upgraded?

The methonal in the water/methonal is the extra fuel to richen your mixture.

 

[ronviper]

Utahviper thanks for setting me straight, seems like a great idea for forced induction.

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Actually the water methanol doesn't really act as more fuel, it keeps the intake cooler which means a cooler charge of air and fuel where you can pull timing out. The amount of water and **** isn't enough to run a small **** whacker. The stuff does work nicely and it will keeps things cool plus keep things clean if done right. If you use more **** than water you will need smaller larger nozzles. If you use more water than ****, you will need a smaller amount injected with smaller nozzles.

I could be wrong on the above...but I think I am close.

 

[CHAD]

smaller larger huh? and then smaller with smaller, got it. Thanks for sharing the secrets

j/k of course but it was a tad ambiguous.

Chad

 

[1TONY1]

I could be wrong on the above...

Your right.....your wrong Methonal is a fuel, in fact a mix of 33% to 50%methonal is flammable. (depending on where you read)

 

[Qualitywires.com]

I need to check my typing.

I have seen **** and water burn and it does burn but not like an explosion type burn.

Tony don't contradict me! I will have to slap down the 12 sec's down on ya! ha!

 

[1TONY1]

I have seen **** and water burn and it does burn but not like an explosion type burn.

So when you saw water/methonal burn.....what was the fuel ?

 

[Nadine UK GTS]

Trent, thanks for your post and results, was an interesting read.



[/QUOTE]

So when you saw water/methonal burn.....what was the fuel ?

[/QUOTE]
...LOL (sorry AB, that was just too funny those last few posts)!

 

[Sean Roe]

I have seen **** and water burn and it does burn but not like an explosion type burn.

You're right Ab, I think it has to be compressed before it becomes one of those "explosion type" of burns. Now if only there was a place to compress it.....

(we're just havin' fun with you)

Trent / Utah,
Thanks for sharing yor results. Keep up the good work.

Regards,
Sean

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Man, I will have to double read what I write. harsh crowd here. Can't wait for the veggies to start coming out.

What I meant to say is the water will evaporate which will absorb most of the heat. The **** will increase octane, but from what I understand, that does not necessarily add more "fuel" like a bigger injector would. The benefits from **** and water is higher octane and cooler air charge which will allow you to take out timing. If you shoot more water than **** mixture, you would need to spray less. If you have more **** than water, then you would need to spray more with larger nozzles. How's that for you critics! Do I make more sense now? Your engine will also look great on the inside too!.

 

[fast?]

i used to run 100 octane in my car all the time and i would lean out 12.5 and shoot up past 13 when i pass 5200 rpms. thats with the fuel turned up as much as possible. now i run 1/4 tank of 100 octane(just to be on the safe side) and my air fuel is low 11's with the fuel turned down 20% and timing turned up 6 1/2 degrees.. the ****/water is not just a coolant but a fuel. i was going to put bigger injectors to compensate for the fuel shortage but the ****/water cured all that.

i will be at the track fri-sat-sun for the mini v-10 nationals. i hope to see all the west coast guys attend.

anyone know what the most boost has been run on a creampuff motor? is it safe to run x amount of boost as long as you don't get detonation? or is the ring land too high on those stupid cast pistons and it can't handle too much cylinder pressure.

 

[utahviper]

AB

I am sorry to say it man but you don't know water/methanol systems. Don't take this the wrong way, I am just trying to educate. I am going to try to explain it but I am not a very good writer.

If you run straight water it will not do anything but cool the air, your a/f ratio will be the same. However, if you add even 5% methanol, running the same jet size, you are adding fuel that will richen up your a/f. If you were lean, lets say 12.5:1 with a blower, then with a 5% methanol increase you would richen it up to say 12.2:1 . The higher the percentage of methanol added the richer it will get.

As the intake temps lower you will be able to advance your timing thus making more power, not the other way around. With our system it doesn't matter how much water/methanol you spray you can keep the same jet sizes.

The water in the system will cool the intake temp down to a cetain point, lets say 150 degrees. THe methanol is the agent that makes the intake temp drop into the double digits. If your intake temp is lets say 160 degree without a water/methanol system then you install a system the intake temp with pure water would only probably drop to 145-150 degrees. Not worth it. However, lets say you add 50% methanol to that same system your intake temp would probably go to 80-90 degrees.

YOu are correct in your statement about the engine being cleaner. Also, water really helps drop the cylinder/exhaust temperatures thus decreasing the possiblity of detonation and allowing the timing to be advanced.

 

[Simms]

AB

I am sorry to say it man but you don't know water/methanol systems. Don't take this the wrong way, I am just trying to educate. I am going to try to explain it but I am not a very good writer.

If you run straight water it will not do anything but cool the air, your a/f ratio will be the same. However, if you add even 5% methanol, running the same jet size, you are adding fuel that will richen up your a/f. If you were lean, lets say 12.5:1 with a blower, then with a 5% methanol increase you would richen it up to say 12.2:1 . The higher the percentage of methanol added the richer it will get.

As the intake temps lower you will be able to advance your timing thus making more power, not the other way around. With our system it doesn't matter how much water/methanol you spray you can keep the same jet sizes.

The water in the system will cool the intake temp down to a cetain point, lets say 150 degrees. THe methanol is the agent that makes the intake temp drop into the double digits. If your intake temp is lets say 160 degree without a water/methanol system then you install a system the intake temp with pure water would only probably drop to 145-150 degrees. Not worth it. However, lets say you add 50% methanol to that same system your intake temp would probably go to 80-90 degrees.

YOu are correct in your statement about the engine being cleaner. Also, water really helps drop the cylinder/exhaust temperatures thus decreasing the possiblity of detonation and allowing the timing to be advanced.

Nice explaination.

 

[pullshard]

Although I do not run a system like the one above, I do run water injection in my turbo saab. I run an aquamist system stage 2. This hooks up to the duty cycle on the injectors an injects water at the same pulse as the injectors. The saab has what is called an APC. This senses knock and backs off boost. I have a lot of mods on this car. But water helps the most. With out water I'm able to sustain 14 psi of boost. What I mean by that is the apc will kick back boost when it senses any form of detonation. Viper does not have this. With the water injected I'm able to sustain 19 lbs of boost all day if I want. So this shows that water injected properly is a great form of increasing power in certain engines. 1 lb of boost is equal to 7-10 hp on this turbo motor. I also run 8 degree's more timing as well. Does it change a\f-no! It only changes the temp of the air being injected after the IC and into the TB. I have already looked into installing a water injection system in Paxton charged car in my garage. I have talked with the rep for aquamist, but the aquamist pump is not strong enough to pump enough water threw 2 jets. He is going to fab. a system for me that will work the same way as the saab(works off duty cycle) but uses a different pump and different jets. Will it work? I have no idea. The only reason I want to install it is as a safe guard. I would love to know how the system above works and what parts you are using. **** will not work on a aquamist pump becuase it will ruin the pump itself. I have had the system on my car for 3 years and that car runs great. But were talking apples to oranges.
Will it clean your pistons-hell yes. The tops of my pistons, as well as the plugs look new.
That's my 2 cents

 

[joe117]

Uncle Joe's History Class,

For what it's worth. I have a book about WW2 aircraft engines. It says that the anti detonation injection, ADI, that they used was a water methanol mix. They don't say what the mix percentage was but they do say that the methanol was only used as an antifreeze for the water.

They do say that when the system was in use it would inject 0.5 to 1.0 pounds of mix for every pound of gasoline. They sprayed it directly into the eye of the sc turbine intake.

The systems that they talk about are all designed to be used as a temporary short term boost for a bomber in overweight takeoff or in the case of a fighter for emergency escape power.

They said the ADI had little effect at high altitude. That makes sense because the engine would have a hard time getting a full breath at high altitude even with sc.

These engines were heavily supercharged with two speed blower drives.
I don't know if the engine would advance timing to take advantage of the ADI or perhaps the boost would just be turned up.

That's it, just thought it was interesting.

 

[utahviper]

pullshard,

I agree with you. If you only add water it will not change the a/f. The fuel pump we are using has been used with this kind of system for over a year without any problems. We are pushing around 140-150psi through two smaller jets. I have seen the aquamist pump and it looks 3 times smaller than the one we use.

This system also works off of the duty cycle of the injector. As the duty cycle increase so does the amount of water/methanol injected.

I think water does an incredible job of decreasing cylinder/exhaust temps and does a good job of decreasing intake temps. If fuel is not an issue then you could buy either our system or the aquamist but if you have a potential fuel problem then you should go with something that can add fuel as well.

I can't wait for Sean to come out with a knock sensor option to reduce timing as it senses detonation or when AEM comes out with their system.

 

[BlueGTS]

This is a very informative thread and I appreciate all the input. It is information like this that helps the Viper community as a whole. I do have a question however, why would you choose to put the fuel needs of the car into the hands of a single injector versus an upgraded 10 injectors setup. Is it just the cost savings? It seams like a single point of failure to me. I can see using water to lower the temperature but adding fuel with one injector seems dangerous. Do you guys view this as a non-issue?

utahviper -
Is there any validly to Methanol being corrosive to aluminum?

 

[utahviper]

aaron

You have point. There are 2 jets in our system and one or both could fail. We do have warning indicators when things are not operating normally. That is also why I said on a previous post that it would be nice once someone has knock sensor/timing retarding capabilities.

Also, when you increase injector size that doesn't always fix the fuel problem. When running more boost you typically upgrade the injectors and fuel system ($2000 at least for both), so it can be a money issue.

 

[Qualitywires.com]

I give up! I am keeping my mouth shut.

 

[dansauto]

Has anyone had any luck with knock senors on vipers? I heard DLM is/has tried it. But the positioning is critical or you will get a false signal.