WB sensor placement

[BOTTLEFED]

I'm not sure if this is the right section for this question but...
I'm about to install my Innovate LC-1 w/XD gauge but I'm not sure where the best place is for the O2 sensor

I would like to get a reading from both banks without the hassle and expense of 2 kits
so I thought maybe the cross-pipe at the rear of the exhaust would give an idea of what both banks are doing

I'm just wondering if anyone has tried this location or if it is a bad idea

 

[Schulmann]

Unfortunately in the case of the Viper you have to have two WBOs. The PCM dates back from the stone age and doesn't provide any protection agains pinging. If you miscalculate your AFR, it is a matter of time before you blow up your engine.

If you have a NA Viper you can use a single WBO to survive.In this case place the WBO after the cross pipe. However you might have "self cleaning" issues. I would definitely use two wbo on modified engines.

In forced induction applications, I strongly suggest you to use two WBOs. If for any reason anything fails on one side of the engine you will have a quick feed-back and likely you will have the time to slow down.

Place the WBO as close as possible after the headers' collector. Myself, I have placed my WBO into the 2nd plug (in place of the second o2 sensor). I didn't have any issues but it is better to have it closer to the headers for self cleaning.

I have a friend who uses a single LM-1 WBO (not a permanent installation) on a Nitros application but he has stange issues He could have better results if he had two perm WBOs.

 

[dave6666]

I think he's trying to put in an A/F gauge, not run the PCM for engine management.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

acually just the sensor

I have a H-pipe/cross-pipe at the rear of the exhaust
I thought since it is the only place both banks tie together, it would give a reading for both banks - sort of

 

[dave6666]

acually just the sensor

I have a H-pipe/cross-pipe at the rear of the exhaust
I thought since it is the only place both banks tie together, it would give a reading for both banks - sort of

OK... A reading for doing what with?

And the crossover may not flow like the main pipes do.

 

[Schulmann]

Yes you can place it after the cross-pipe but there is no ****. However the cross-pipe doen't make big exhauste mixing.

What modifications do you have and what year is your Viper ?

If you get into serious tuning you will definitely need two WBOs.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I would have a **** welded into the cross-pipe

I'm adding this WB in for tuning my VEC2
I've got headers, exhaust, smooth tubes, and I'm adding N2O right now
I want to add forced induction in the future

I just dont' want to clutter the interior with WB gauges
JackB suggested replacing the voltmeter with the XD-1

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

See your ***

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

My humble opinion....

1. No, not that far back...ever. Cats? No Cats? Hi Flo Cats?
2. No, that meter is fun and pretty, but worthless for tuning. If you cant return it and just go with an LC-1, no problem, but the meter itself is eye candy and useless for tuning. You must log...see #4.
3. No, you don't need two WB, one WB & two bungs (one capped) will work fine.
4. You have more work to do and more to buy to really tune well.
5. If you go positive induction, there is more....

See your ***...its great that you want to tune your own rig...its alot of fun and will make your car a monster.

 

[sctdev]

Two wide-band kits is overkill. We've tuned literally hundreds of dual exhaust cars using one wideband. Yes, you COULD try to lift IF you saw one bank going lean, but because the O2 pulse is delayed (time to flow down the pipe) the damage may already be done. Add in reaction time and you have even more damage before you lift.

On a WOT dyno run typically the A/F graph has to be adjusted by 250-350 rpms.

 

[plumcrazy]

i asked kevin at underground racing (who knows a thing or 2 about vipers) about the placement of the WB. i bought a set of used belanger headers from one of his customers that had it in the tube coming off of the head about 3/4 way down. and that was the only WB he had. kevin said thats where he always puts them (single) and never has a problem. also said something about keeping it simple...

maybe he since changed his view but that was only a year ago.

i dont personally think ya need 2 WB's. but ive been wrong before

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

As I understand it, the main function of a crossover pipe is to carry any imbalance of exhaust due to any unequal exhaust pipe length. Other than that, different iterations of a crossover probably produce different sound characteristics. I've always been told a crossover will have the most effect on systems of unequal length. An example would be a transverse mounted engine.

It doesn't make sense to me to mount the WB in a rear crossover which gets only a portion of exhaust flow way down stream (maybe very little in a Viper). ....Seems you are increasing the variables for a bad reading the more bolted joints joints it runs through.

The single tube solution, for Belangers anyway, only came about as a band aid to stop the heater code MILs in newer cars from the stock OEM O2 location. When I bought Belangers in early 2001, they didn't come with a **** up high and MIL lights were abundant.

IMO, it is best to mount the WB (and stock 02) after the collector area in the turn out (factory O2 location) pipe....thereby getting an average from all 5 cylinders in the bank. Using only 1 cylinder is basically fooling the computer. In a perfect world there would be a stock O2 sensor on every cylinder sending a signal back, but that's not practical.

My experience to date shows 1 WB to be sufficient. Burning another one in and capping that **** (like Dan states above) is a good way to have the option to switch occassionally and check out the other side. 23,000 Roe "Hard Charging" miles the last 2 seasons...with a couple track events and some autocrosses thrown in are proof to me that this method works well. Dan and I are pretty much on the same page for WBs, 5 pounders, and tuning.

Steve

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

As I understand it, the main function of a crossover pipe is to carry any imbalance of exhaust due to any unequal exhaust pipe length. Other than that, different iterations of a crossover probably produce different sound characteristics. I've always been told a crossover will have the most effect on systems of unequal length. An example would be a transverse mounted engine.

It doesn't make sense to me to mount the WB in a rear crossover which gets only a portion of exhaust flow way down stream (maybe very little in a Viper). ....Seems you are increasing the variables for a bad reading the more bolted joints joints it runs through.

The single tube solution, for Belangers anyway, only came about as a band aid to stop the heater code MILs in newer cars from the stock OEM O2 location. When I bought Belangers in early 2001, they didn't come with a **** up high and MIL lights were abundant.

IMO, it is best to mount the WB (and stock 02) after the collector area in the turn out (factory O2 location) pipe....thereby getting an average from all 5 cylinders in the bank. Using only 1 cylinder is basically fooling the computer. In a perfect world there would be a stock O2 sensor on every cylinder sending a signal back, but that's not practical.

My experience to date shows 1 WB to be sufficient. Burning another one in and capping that **** (like Dan states above) is a good way to have the option to switch occassionally and check out the other side. 23,000 Roe "Hard Charging" miles the last 2 seasons...with a couple track events and some autocrosses thrown in are proof to me that this method works well. Dan and I are pretty much on the same page for WBs, 5 pounders, and tuning.

Steve

Steve,

So you welded a **** into the Belanger turnout for the WB. Did you do a second **** for the stock O2 sensor? Where (clock position) did you place the ****(s) on the turnout?

Thanks,
Pat

 

[ViperTony]

Pat, I'll take pics of what I did for you today but I welded the 02 bungs in the 3 o'clock position(driver's side) and 9 o'clock position (passenger side), near the 3 bolt flange actually, just before the turnout starts. The reason I placed them there was to make certain I'd catch exhaust flow from all 5 tubes. This also seemed to be the only place where the O2 wouldn't hit/interfere with the pickle. With the DC Performance O2 sensors, everything has been fine. I'll post pics this afternoon.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Pat, I'll take pics of what I did for you today but I welded the 02 bungs in the 3 o'clock position(driver's side) and 9 o'clock position (passenger side), near the 3 bolt flange actually, just before the turnout starts. The reason I placed them there was to make certain I'd catch exhaust flow from all 5 tubes. This also seemed to be the only place where the O2 wouldn't hit/interfere with the pickle. With the DC Performance O2 sensors, everything has been fine. I'll post pics this afternoon.

Excellent! Thanks Tony. I'd also be interested in seeing how you attached the turnout to the cat. BTW, I have the ROE PCM, so I shouldn't need the DC O2 sensors.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Steve,

So you welded a **** into the Belanger turnout for the WB. Did you do a second **** for the stock O2 sensor? Where (clock position) did you place the ****(s) on the turnout?

Thanks,
Pat

Yes, right in the middle (3 O'clock) of the pipe at the turnout area....driver's side My Belangers came with an O2 **** on the top of the pipe -- in this same area. That is basically the factory location. I installed the factory O2 back in this location. I did not have to extend the O2 pigtail to plug into the car harness.......just rerouted.

Steve

 

[ViperTony]

This is taken from underneath the passenger side footwell area. The **** was welded at the 8 o'clock position (should've been 9 o'clock). I chose this location because it seemed to catch flow from both sides of the Y-pipe. The heat shield would be directly above this pipe but I removed it as I'm working on the car right now. The 02 tucks in nicely in this location and doesn't protrude out from under the car. I had to extend the OEM O2 wiring but the DC Performance sensors had the correct length. So far no issues. You can always give Tator a call on the best location, he's welded in a few of these on the Belanger's and was a wealth of information to me about why/when to relocate the O2 bungs on Belanger headers.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Your rocking now....please do join VCA, seems that you are the kind of guy that asks good questions and looks forward to disciplined answers.....

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

This is taken from underneath the passenger side footwell area. The **** was welded at the 8 o'clock position (should've been 9 o'clock). I chose this location because it seemed to catch flow from both sides of the Y-pipe. The heat shield would be directly above this pipe but I removed it as I'm working on the car right now. The 02 tucks in nicely in this location and doesn't protrude out from under the car. I had to extend the OEM O2 wiring but the DC Performance sensors had the correct length. So far no issues. You can always give Tator a call on the best location, he's welded in a few of these on the Belanger's and was a wealth of information to me about why/when to relocate the O2 bungs on Belanger headers.

I was thinking of installing my **** further back. I don't know if I have the terminology correct, but I believe you have installed the **** in the collector. I was thinking of installing in the bolted on piece which I have heard called the turn out. Anyone see a problem with that?

 

[ViperTony]

Yes, I installed the O2 **** in the collector not the turnout. Since my Belanger headers didn't come with the second O2 **** welded in, I tried to keep it close to the collector area I could. I could've squeezed it into the turnout pipe just beyond the flange in the pic I posted earlier. It would've been a tight fit though. It could've also been placed in the turnout pipe in the sill area. I don't know if there'd be an issue locating it there. Best bet is to call Tator on that one.

Here's a pic of the Belanger Headers with the second O2 **** welded in on top of the collector but only catching 3 tubes. I think you can actually ask Lou to weld the **** wherever you want before you order:

Here's a pic of my cat connected to the turnout pipe. I used band clamps but I'm throwing them out on Monday and welding the joints instead. I have leaks at these connections and the band clamps can't squeeze down enough to seal the RT cat inlet over the turnout pipe. I've already messed with sealing/resealing this area several times and I'm done with clamps.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Good stuff Tony. I've got RT cats as well, so I'll be welding them. I'm sure you've saved me a lot of grief.

Thanks,
Pat

 

[ViperTony]

I want to be clear about what I did...I mounted the O2 sensors (not a Wideband Sensor) in the collector area because I needed to read all 5 cylinders as opposed to one cylinder with the standard Belanger O2 **** location.

I do have one wideband sensor installed on the driver's side (per Damn Yankee's Detailed WBO How To). That wideband sensor is located in the turnout at the 10 o'clock position as seen in this pic of my sidesill:

One last thing, if you haven't already done so, give Lou Belanger a call. Go to the source. He loves talking about his headers and exhaust but plan on spending an hour with him. It's well worth the time.

 

[SYNFULL]

I don't have cats so can the wideband sensors go where the rear 02's were? I am using 02 simms so the rears aren't being used.
Thanks
Gary