What a day at the track . . .

[Cal Cobra]

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Took my snake to the track (Thunderhill) for the first time last Thursday, and what a blast! It's the most fun you can have with your clothes on

I went with a couple of my friends - the guy with the red w/silver stripes Viper and the lady with the red Viper is his wife. The guy with the new 2006 blue w/white stripes Viper we meet there, and I'm the big guy with the white w/blue stripes snake.

One thing I found interesting was that towards the end of the day when it was getting hot, I seemed to be loosing traction. I'm running stock Pilot tires with good tread, so I'm wondering if it was an air pressure issue (need to adjust for the additional heat?)?? Just didn't feel as "stickey" on my last session, and I had a good slide off the track where I least expected it. Other then that, the car was a blast on the track and I thought it did very well for a fairly stock ten year old snake. With my cat deleted exhaust it was definitely one of the best sounding cars there.

Tracking my car has given me a completely different perspective on cars and a new appreciation for road racing and track skills. It's a hell of lot more difficult then I ever imagined it would be. Practice, practice, practice is the answer I'm sure. There's nothing like sliding off the track at 80MPH to get your blood flowing!! Lots of different cars were there (you name it, it was there) and I was amazed at how much comradery there is at the track, a good time was had by all, and what a learning experience.

Cal

 

[ruckdr]

Brian,
We have talked before on other topics - aren't track days a blast !!??
I was at the track all day yesterday (9-1-06) for the nth time this year, it was hot, and the event had enough cars to only need ONE run group; in other words the track was open to get on, get off, any time you wanted for 6 1/2 hours.
You mentioned stock Michelin tires; that's what I use because I use my car for the street; HOWEVER, if you do not have Tom's remanufactured REAR brake calipers, consider it. I put mine on last year, and I can tell you, you will drive into the corners faster, and deeper, and when the brakes are applied, the car will "Squat", rather than "nose dive". A BIG difference.

Contact Tom Hayden (Viper Club Member)
[email protected]

Later,

 

[Cal Cobra]

Hi Don,

How are you doing? Yep track days could become very addictive, I don't know if my wallet can keep up if I really get the bug - LOL!

I've read quite a bit about Tom's rebuilt rear brake calipers on here and they seem to be the way to go short of switching out to a new setup. I was pretty happy with the new pads and rotors on the front. So is the idea that the rebuilt calipers will lessen the transfer of weight to the front, and therefore will squat vs nose dive form the extra weight transfer?

Do you run the stock 1996 wheels? I've read a few post from folks that state because their cast & welded their prone to cracking on the track?

I have the stock cooling system, with the only update being switching to a Gen2 fan when my fan failed. The temp stayed right about 190F the entire day, even when run hard. I thought that was impressive (my friend put on the silicon hoses, new Roe aluminum 3 core radiator which was advertised as a direct bolt on which it totally was not, and also added the Roe fan control and our temps stayed the same). We ran 20 minute sessions, and when we'd pit I'd open the hood to let her cool down a bit in between sessions.

Thanks,
Cal

 

[ruckdr]

Brian,

So is the idea that the rebuilt calipers will lessen the transfer of weight to the front, and therefore will squat vs nose dive form the extra weight transfer?

What happens is the calipers apply much more rear brake bias, thus allowing the rear wheels to come into play when stopping. You can actually feel the pull from the rear. You WILL use rear brake pads at maybe the same rate as the front. With stock rears, it takes forever (well almost)to wear out rear pads. Your rear wheels will show brake dust, much like the fronts.

Do you run the stock 1996 wheels? I've read a few post from folks that state because their cast & welded their prone to cracking on the track?

No, I have stock 1999 (I think)through 2002 - 18 inch one piece wheels.

I have the stock cooling system, with the only update being switching to a Gen2 fan when my fan failed. The temp stayed right about 190F the entire day, even when run hard. I thought that was impressive (my friend put on the silicon hoses, new Roe aluminum 3 core radiator which was advertised as a direct bolt on which it totally was not, and also added the Roe fan control and our temps stayed the same). We ran 20 minute sessions, and when we'd pit I'd open the hood to let her cool down a bit in between sessions.

I had to replace my radiator this year (not flowing - partially plugged ....), and went with the Ron Davis aluminum - IT IS DIRECT BOLT IN. I know, I helped do it. I also have the late fan from a few years ago. Mine was a little warmer than what you described, just past the right mark of the 3, where the fan comes on, then cools down. Went clear to the red before replacing the radiator, and 180 deg. thermostat.

Later,

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The rear calipers are "re-sized" to a larger piston, (36mm to 40mm diameter) producing 23% more clamping force on the rotors. Search for "deceleration rate measurements" and you'll see data showing a bone stock Gen 1 improving from 0.8 to 1.0 G's braking from the caliper change alone. And they're drop-in, DIY replacements for existing brakes.

I don't think you will wear the rears quite like Don if you don't drive backwards as much.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

That's what we like to hear! Congrats. Track often!

 

[ruckdr]

Thanks Tom; but driving backwards strengthens your neck muscles.

Any way, Brian, definitely look into getting the brakes, probably the best track enhancement I have made for my car.

 

[Casey]

Looks like fun!

 

[Cal Cobra]

I don't think you will wear the rears quite like Don if you don't drive backwards as much.

ROTFLMAO!!! Thanks Tom.

Prior to the track day I put new slotted rotors and Hawk HPS pads on the front. Seemed to work well, and I was amazed at the difference between the brake dust on the front wheels vs the back after the track day. The back wheels were basically black with brake dust, and the fronts just had a light dusting. If I swap the rear calipers I think I'll put these or similar pads on the rear too.

My friend put EBC yellows on his car before going, and he was pleased with them. Also contrary to a lot of posts that indicated their not good for the street, he thought they were great and much better then stock pads.

Don that all makes sense. I think I need to look for a set of either the Gen2 18" or 97-98 17" one piece wheels and pick up a set of the Kumho Ecsta V700's and use them for track wheels/tires. I suspect between this and Tom's rear brake upgrade I'd probably see a big difference, then the rest will be up to me

Thanks,
Cal

 

[Cal Cobra]

One other thing, are you guys running stock PSI on your tires at the track (29PSI per the owners manual)?

Cal

 

[ruckdr]

Brian,
I have heard the Hawk Pads a really good,although I have never tried them. I use stock pads and rotors, definitely not the best, but definitely not the worst; THEY DO STOP. At the track day mentioned above, there were 3 Vipers from the club, including 2 '96 RT/10's and an '05-06 (not sure) SRT10. It was a blast for all of us.
As Tom said the brakes are a drop in", with the only Slight, very slight difficulty I had was the E-brake, and the strong return spring; not a big deal.

I started tire pressure at 32, about 65-70 degrees in the am, then as the tire pressure increased (heat), and the air temp got into the 80's (yes in SEATTLE), I lowered them to 33 (they had increased to 37.5 - 38); so I removed about 4-5 lbs. I just went and checked the pressure now cold (no running), and I haven't added any air and they are 28, which reflects about the 4-5 lbs. I removed at the track. I guess what I am saying is that I was running 32-33 lbs. cold/hot. This on Michelin Pilot Sports (18").

OH, one more thing - stainless brake lines for sure, and good, new, brake fluid. I use Motul 600.

Later,

 

[Vic]

Doing Thunderhill was my most fun track day I ever went to. I only went once with Viperdays, cuz its pretty far to drive, like an 8 hour drive. Ran in "Prepared", pilot sports, did 2:15 w/cyclone, my first time out. Fun track, isn't it?

 

[Cal Cobra]

Hey Don,

This will give me some Viper upgrades to do over the winter.

I'll definitely play with the air pressure a bit the next time. I ran 29PSI all day, and on the last track session the air temp was well into the mid 90's, and the car seems a bit loose compared to earlier in the day.

I also installed speed bleeders (that was a great inexpensive mod) and flushed the (probably) original brake fluid. I used Prestone Syenthetic DOT4 fluid to flush out the old stuff. It says it's fully DOT3/4 compatible. Never had a spongy peddle, although at one point I did smell a bit of hot brake pad, but it could've been from another car too, hard to say.

Stainless brake lines...how much of a chore is it to swap to the stainless lines? Where's the best (read least expensive place to get the stainess lines?

Thanks,
Cal

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I found the Kuhmos will need much higher pressures, like 10 psi more.

I love speed bleeders, too.

Buy some white shoe polish or a wax crayon and mark the edge of the tread. Have your mark run off the tread down an inch onto the sidewall. After a run you will without question know how much the tire rolled over and whether to add or remove air pressure. Make this mark in two-three places around the tire in case you park and the mark is on the ground. Obviously, mark each tire...

Don, how's your clutch pedal?

 

[Cal Cobra]

Hey Vic,

Definitely a fun track. That blind turn #4 was pretty wild the first few runs. I was hoping they'd do Viperdays there this year as it's about two hours or so from me, but they said it was too expensive to do it there this year and they only did Buttonwillow in SoCal this year.

Tom I saw a few guys that had white marks around their tires at the track. I'm assuming if you eat into the white marks, then you need to add air pressure?

Definitely getting some good things to try next time.

Cal

 

[ruckdr]

Tom,
I love the Clutch pedal - next to the brakes, the best mod for driving added to the car. As you know, mine (due to error - but I love it) is even shorter.

Brian,
SS brake lines: If your car is available to be "*******" for a while during the winter, I had my lines made by Crown Industries. I sent them the complete line and brackets from the frame to the caliper. They then built the lines to replace the rubber lines, yet maintained the stock mountings and hardware.
Their lines are Kevlar as opposed to Teflon, and the SS braid is covered in a plastic with color choices.

2440 La Mirada
Vista, CA 92081
[email protected]

http://www.crownperformance.com/
{760) 599-0090

I posted some pictures of the SS brake lines in my Photo Gallery, Click on my photos in the avatar to view (rather than post here).

Later,

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The white marks are simply an indicator so you know what are fresh marks and what are old marks. You should put them on before every run.

Autocross guys told me (and it seems to be correct) that ideal is to wear the tread over the shoulder a little to the Bibendum (the teeny little Michelin man) on the side of the tread blocks.

This will become an iterative thing - if you feel you are putting too much air in the tires to save poor Bibendum, then you might want more camber. (For me, the sign of too much pressure was fronts starting to became too unforgiving to road irregularities) After a camber/caster/alignment then you get to start all over again with finding best pressure.

 

[Cal Cobra]

Don - Thanks for the info on the SS brake lines. If you don't mind me asking, do you recall about how much $$ they were?

Tom - That makes sense, I didn't even know little Bibendum was there, but just looked and sure enough he's all over the place

Is the general censensus that the Michelin's are good for casual track use?

Thanks,
Cal

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

Anybody who doesn't track their sports car is missing half the fun. IMO

Enjoy Cal and seek lots of in car instructions from experienced drivers.

 

[ruckdr]

Almost remember, they were less than $200.00, but that was in March 2004, 2 1/2 years ago.

Is the general censensus that the Michelin's are good for casual track use?

They get you by, but not really that good for the track. I have a friend with a Z06, and we always go at it at Pacific Raceway, I pull him up the straight at 140+ (he can't close on me), then before the 75 MPH turn, he is all over me. He runs Hoosiers, and can stop and turn. There really is no substitute for a racing/track tire, for the track.
If I were to get another set of rims and tires, I'd have to put a trailer hitch on my Viper to get them to the track --- ooppps, did I say that?
I enjoy the track days, and have quite a bit of experience over the years, I like running the car, but it is not a main priority for me, although I have made good car improvements for the track and street; rear brakes, SS lines, clutch pedal.

Later,

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Is the general censensus that the Michelin's are good for casual track use?

Depends on what you are looking for. Michelin is a good durable tire that will last more track days than probably every other tire. But they aren't real sticky.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Don, my part number GoR-0074 is a trailer hitch kit for Vipers. It adds about 22 lbs to your car and can tow a 400 lb trailer (about 4 tires, a jack, and a toolbox on a 48"x40" platform). I'll make you a special deal.

 

[ruckdr]

Tom,
Thanks for your generous offer, but I'll pass, and continue what I am doing, knowing that I have a LOT of fun at the track. That does look good for a hitch, and when removed, basically can't tell it.

Later,

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Don, I was kidding, it's not a part number...

 

[Fast Viper Dan]

Cal. Good to hear you made the plunge. Your one of us now!
New pads, cooling ducts, five point harness, roll bar, cool suit, bigger brakes, more power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HaHa!
Northern California Racing Club.
Find there web site and book mark it.
This club runs at thunder hill several times each year. They have instructors for all levels of experience from first timers to race prep. All at one fair price.
I am always looking for more Vipers at these events, being that is my "roots". All types of cars are welcome.
They also do some fun stuff like relay races and time trials. There is also a race group. All around easy going fun group. One of the owners is a Viper owner as well. I bring my Viper out from time to time. I wish Viper Days would include TH as well but the Nor Cal VCA dose not support VD's enough to make it a profitable event.
So! Join our local club!
Oh, and tell them Dan sent you and receive a discount on your first event!
See ya at the track!

 

[ruckdr]

Tom, that's OK, I wasn't going to order one anyway.

Did you read my post:
http://www4.forum.viperclub.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=722336&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

about my ignition problem?
What an experience, and the solution was quite by accident, but solved.

Later,

 

[Cal Cobra]

Hey Dan, I remember chatting with you some time back (probably a couple of years back Do you know if the NCRC has driving instructors that are Viper savvy?

Seems like the norcal VCA is more into car shows and BBQ's then driving events Hate to say it, but thought it was a bit disappointing, as the previous car club I was in was totally into driving events (with an occasional BBQ/car show).

There was an older 450HP Z06 that was one of the fastest cars there, he had track tires (a dang Lotus was the quickest car around the track).

I did for a second consider the Viper trailer hitch/trailer option

Thanks,
Cal

 

[REDSLED]

Hey Dan, Do you know if the NCRC has driving instructors that are Viper savvy?

Yes, there are several of us NCRC instructors/members that can get you around the track in a Viper just fine. If memory serves me I think we are low-mid 1:50's at T-Hill on the Toyo RA-1's

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Brian, if you want, PM me an email and I'll zip up all the pictures I took while constructing the hitch and send them to you. If you can weld and measure, you can make one fairly easily.

You'll need a trailer light converter, since the Viper has yellow turn signals. Wires can be reached from the trunk in an RT and I ran them through one of the large rubber plugs, which leads to an open slot in the bumper fascia, easily reaching the trailer itself.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Hey Dan, I remember chatting with you some time back (probably a couple of years back Do you know if the NCRC has driving instructors that are Viper savvy?

Seems like the norcal VCA is more into car shows and BBQ's then driving events Hate to say it, but thought it was a bit disappointing, as the previous car club I was in was totally into driving events (with an occasional BBQ/car show).

There was an older 450HP Z06 that was one of the fastest cars there, he had track tires (a dang Lotus was the quickest car around the track).

I did for a second consider the Viper trailer hitch/trailer option

Thanks,
Cal

Brian,

The Northern California VCA has a wide variety of activities. For performance driving we have yearly VCA driving schools via Skip Barber. The BAMF track day as well as Viper Days. I think there was also a Green Flag/VCA event at Laguna Seca. There are may other members like Dan, Robert, Rocky, Kurt, Bret, just to name a few who do open track events(Checkered Flag, NASA, Corp. track events) and or race with the SCCA or NASA. There are a couple VCA track guys from Brentwood, Bill and Rob.

Events are driven by member interest not by the interest of a few. If you want more track events suggest you get involved and organize one rather than make empty comments. Club events are organized and managed by club members so get to work or stop complaining about one of the best clubs in the World.

Viper Days at Thunderhill was dropped because of cost vs income. This track was always the first event scheduled and typically we (VCA) had little notice to help promote it. The attendance was a market issue in my opinion. I do feel we should lobby for the return of Viper Days to Thunderhill.

Brian since you sound like an avid track guy? Where were you when Viper Days was at Button Willow? That event combined with the BAMF event was an opportunity for three track days, along with the best track side support of any open track event in the US.

FYI, Reno is the next Viper Days event for our area, the end of Sept.