Why spend the money on aftermarket PRODUCTS

[wormdoggy]

When DC spends millions on engineering the vehicle for safety, reliabilty and ultimate performance given the design specifications.

Why the hell to we insist on changing characteristics of the vehicle only to be let down by reliability from aftermarket products in the end.

Several Viper owners and I have been battling with repairs and performance issues with a simple modification like exhaust systems. Several of the owners decided to go with the Corsa set-up while others ,including myself, decided to go with the belanger set-up.

Problems ranged from :

Exhaust shifted burning sills ( repair sills $ 200 CDN ) per car
Welded exhaust. Hanger clamp broke ( repairs to burnt sills $ 200 CDN ) per car
Adjust exhaust alignment. Needed to adjust exhaust support. ( $ 600 CDN mechanic shop ) per car
Secondary 02 Sensors were burnt ( $ 120 CDN each for replacement )
Purchase heat wrap tape and other accessories ($ 150 CDN ) several cars
Secondary 02 sensors burnt again ( $ 180 CDN for 02 simms ) ( $ 500 CDN mechanic )
Frustraded owners ( priceless )

and on and on and on..........................

I know from other posts this is not an isolated case and it certainly has been happening to other individuals who have purchased these set-ups. Look at the problems people were having with the K&N filters until it was finally fixed by the manufacturer.

[******] !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are some pictures of and secondary 02 sensor on an exhaust application. I did everything but wrap the sensors in cement. Its as if the sensors was burnt from the inside out . And yet the manufacturer is telling me that these are isolated cases.

At the end of the day I was forced to pay for 02 simms in order to resolve this problem because I DONT GIVE A CRAP what you put on those sensors..........THEY WILL BURN!!!! They are in a badly placed position unlike the original design. Only the RT cats managed to get it right cause the kept the original cat design and put the 02 sensors where they should have been.

My car was sitting for probably a month during these issues and again in the end I have to eliminate a component of the car ( secondary 02 sensors ) that DC had originally developed to be there and not be removed.

Friends of mine continue to have issues with after market items they purchased as well. Only one of my friends got it right and decided to leave the vehicle alone ..........................DIDN;T TOUCH ANYTHING AND STILL REFUSES TO DO SO !

Why is this happening? Are manufacturers not allowing for proper testing ? Or are we the ginny pigs ? Why are we forced to pay additional costs for items or repairs that we should never had had to pay for? [******]!!!!

Had I known of the problems I would probably have left everything the way it was but WHO THE HELL KNEW. I was told that the set-up was

BEST ON THE MARKET
OUTSTANDING
INCREASES 45HP
COMPLETE EASY INSTALL NO OTHER ITEMS REQUIRED.

It never said anything like ...............

MIGHT NEED 02 SIMMS
WILL HAVE POSSIBILTY OF SEVERAL 02 SENSORS BURNING BEFORE YOU GET IT RIGHT AT YOUR COST.
MIGHT NEED TO REMOVE THE SECONDARY SENSORS TOTALLY AND PLUGS REQUIRED AT YOUR COST
POSSIBILITY THAT EXHAUST NEEDS TO BE WELDED IN PLACE TO AVOID SHIFTING
EXHAUST MAY SHIFT CAUSING SILLS TO BURN
CLAMP FAILURE

Is this false advertising ?

I'm venting cause I am a little disturbed by some of the after market products and I know a lot of guys on this system know what I am talking about, because its probably happended to you as well. I not writing this as an isolated case but for the masses who continue to have issues with after market products.

Just venting guys!! Sorry if I offended anyone !

Patrick

 

[GARY J]

Re: Why spend the money on after market PRODUCTS

Ginny pig?

 

[GR8_ASP]

Re: Why spend the money on after market PRODUCTS

It is phonetic and easier to spell than guinea pig. Or I guess I should have said fonetic.

Oh well. As for mods that is the nature of the beast. Low volume cars generally do not get well developed aftermarket parts as the potential market is pretty small. And if it is well developed you pay the price.

BTW the Mopar exhaust has the growth problem even worse than the Corsa. No idea on the rear O2 sensor thing as they are in my workshop cabinets and are not overheating at all .

 

[268Copperhead]

Re: Why spend the money on after market PRODUCTS

Wormdoggy

I love my Viper. But the sounds seems to be a bit understated. I would like to jazz it up a bit so I was going to add an after market exhaust.

I was thinking about adding a Corsa Track cat back system to my Viper. But I am not interested in going through the problems you are have gone through.

Do you know anyone in TO or the surrounding area that has experience installing exhausts on Vipers. I am just not up for **** it myself.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

 

[wormdoggy]

Re: Why spend the money on after market PRODUCTS

Wormdoggy

I love my Viper. But the sounds seems to be a bit understated. I would like to jazz it up a bit so I was going to add an after market exhaust.

I was thinking about adding a Corsa Track cat back system to my Viper. But I am not interested in going through the problems you are have gone through.

Do you know anyone in TO or the surrounding area that has experience installing exhausts on Vipers. I am just not up for **** it myself.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

SS AUTO..............send me a private email and I will give you his contact number. He just finished repairs to a system with the Corsa on it and I stress repairs. Great guy and he will certainly take his time to do it correctly. Just make sure you know what your getting before you purchase it. Modifications need to be made to the Corsa in order to get the alignment correct.
Patrick

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

Re: Why spend the money on after market PRODUCTS

Wormdoggy

I fully agree.
I was a ******* and bought $20k on aftermarket parts for the GTS the day I bought it because I thought it had to be done. I spent the next 2 1/2 years of ownership fixing those products and the problems they caused.
I am very leery about changing anything on my SRT/10 now. I don't want to wrench on this car I just want to drive it.

 

[268Copperhead]

Re: Why spend the money on after market PRODUCTS

I have sent you a PM. Thanks.

 

[Bobpantax]

I think that one of the main keys to success with modifying a car in general and a Viper in particular is to wait until there is an extensive body of knowledge and experience accumulated by those individuals who will be making the modifications with respect to the particular modifications desired. An equally important procedure is for the car owner to educate himself or herself as much as possible about the current state of the art with respect to the contemplated mods. For example,after having had the experience of modding my GTS on a piecemeal basis, I realized that the piecemeal method is not the right way. So, before ordering my new SRT coupe, I initiated a process of learning as much as I could about the mods that would be needed to fulfill the specific performance goals I had in mind and, at the same time, preserve the engineering integrity of the vehicle. I called a number of the more knowledgeable and tech savy VCA members on this site. I explored all of the prior posts on the various mods I had in mind. I consulted people on whether I needed other mods to accommadate some of the mods I intended. I researched who, on balance was the best choice to do the particular mods I had in mind based on experience, cost, time to completion, accountability, depth of talent, and other factors. After all of this, then, and only then, did I make my final decision. I ordered my SRTC from Woodhouse. It was built at CAAP for me and delivered to Woodhouse. The techs at Woodhouse did all of the mods before delivery to my driveway by Bill K. The mods included: Paxton, competition coupe oil pan, Corsa catback, Eibachs, Motons, corner balancing, shifter spring tightening, and skip shift elimination. Woodhouse also tuned the engine on a Mustang dyno. Mark Jorgensen answered many detailed questions before I bought the car, while we were waiting for the car to be built and delivered to Woodhouse from CAAP ;and, during the mod process which was done in less than a week with progress photographs sent to me by email. It was my judgement then that Woodhouse, as the largest Viper dealer in the country and with an owner that races Vipers, would do a great job and be there by email or telephone if I needed something in the future. It is now almost four months and about 2500 miles since I rceived the Monsta MIB SRTC. My judgment was correct. The car runs flawlessly. JM2Cs

Bob

 

[SRTRICKY]

I don't want to change the parts on my cars because I know they will cause issues no matter what I do but some things are just a must

 

[flexcalibur]

Bob,

What was your RWHP with those mods?

 

[Bobpantax]

"What was your RWHP with those mods?"

590.2 RWHP on a Mustang Dyno (the conversion factor to translate this to HP at the crank is somewhat debateable but I think that it is safe to assume that this translates into more than 700 HP at the crank - Mustang dyno numbers are considerably lower than dynojet numbers) with less than 19 miles on the car. The dyno procedure that Woodhouse/ Mark Jorgensen used to dyno the car before breakin but after mods was, per Mark, as follows:

"After we complete the changes, the car will be taken in an enclosed trailer to the dyno shop in Omaha 30 miles away. We warm up the car and drive train on the dyno for a couple miles at 60MPH and then do a calibration pull in 4th gear for the dyno, 2500 – 6000 RPM. This further warms the cars fluids and tires to prevent slippage on the rollers. After a 15-20 min. cool down, the car is dynoed to check Air fuel ratio, Boost, and HP. If we need to make any adjustments to the FMU we do so and let the car cool for 10 – 15 min. during the swap. And start over with the pull. All pulls are done in 4th gear and from 2500 – 6000 RPM. This does not hurt the engine as the factory does dyno checks on the cars the same way before they are released."

The A/F numbers indicate a conservative tune. I have not had my SRTC dynoed since the above mentioned test was done. However, it is much stronger than it was when I first received the vehicle. At around two hundred miles it really started to come to life. The car is not for the meek. LOL

 

[flexcalibur]

Thanks very much for the info. I'm contemplating the same mods.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

You did it right Bob, by having Woodhouse do it all. They know it's their reputation if your not happy with it.

I’ll be curious to see if you start having any issues in the future.

Of course Woodhouse didn’t manufacture the mods you used, just installed them.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Bob and Andrew,

Thanks so much for the vote of confidence, we do put our reputation out there with each customers car we touch. I for one feel VERY fortunate to be able to help our customers understand about the choices availible and the potential problems each may cause. We strive to upgrade cars with parts that we know and trust with suppliers that do the same. We do not use anything that we have not raced or proven without a doubt to be useful to our customers, most of which are hundreds if not thousand miles away when the car is delivered.

Wormdoggy, I can see from the pictures that you replaced the cats with the Randoms? When you relocate the O2 sensor to the hottest spot on the exhaust you are correct that the O2 will fail from the heat. Just imagine how hot the area is behind the cat after a spirited drive the wires no matter what we have done also will burn from the heat soak. You could try to extend them to the rear of the exhaust but this may also give problems because of the LACK of heat. Best of luck to you.

Mark Jorgensen

 

[Racer Robbie]

QUOTE: Why is this happening? Are manufacturers not allowing for proper testing ? Or are we the ginny pigs ? Why are we forced to pay additional costs for items or repairs that we should never had had to pay for? [******]!!!

I am sorry that a lot of you have had experiences with after market products and I totally agree you should never have to pay to repair a product that was made wrong or not tested before the sale. The whole problem stems from this Internet thing today as anyone can put up a fancy looking web site with a lot of fancy pictures claiming anything they want to. They do very little testing, if any. These people charge you, take your money, send you an inferior product, and have no support after the sale.

We at AtRo Racing Products spend tons of time working out all the "bugs" in our products before they are put on our web site for sale. In most cases we put over 750-1000 miles on every item we sell with our viper test mule.

Our web site is a joke compaired to all the fancy ones out there, hell we don't even have a web domain, preferring to spend our money on developing a product that fits right and works right the first time.

Our support is known as one of the best in the after market industry. I have been on the phone for hours helping customers answering questions about problems they have with other peoples products along with how to install our products. I have been on the phone for hours helping customers answering questions about problems they have with other peoples products along with how to install our products. I have even spent hours on the phone on a Sunday night at 11 PM to help people. This is what product support is all about. the other dayI had a customer in the shop that wanted his half shafts changed and we believed the kit he bought from another vendor was missing parts. We called the vendor and was told to call back later in the day. This is not product support!

We have sold a ton of Sealed Ram Air Systems, Shifter Kits, Exhaust Kits, and Brake Systems over the years and we have never had a comeback or anything but praise from our customers. This is nthe difference when you do the job right before the sale and offer real support after the sale.

There are a lot of people who have put us down here on this forum saying our products do not work. These people have never bought anything from us, therefor how would they know this? You have never heard anything on this forum but praise from people who have bought from us and most of them are repeat customers. You may have noticed that we have posted the forum links to those who have bought our products and have done writeups on them. I have included acouple below to show that not all of us aftermarket suppliers are here to rip you off.

There are va lot of us that conduct business fairly and honestly while doing our best to sell you a product that works the first time out of the box.

One this my dad was always telling me when I was racing and I wanted to try the latest new fad on my race car was to keep it simple stupid. he called it "KISS".

To all the other honest aftermarget suppliers out there who build a great product I commend you for being honets and providing some of the best support in the after market industry!

Robbie
AtRo Racing Products

http://www4.forum.viperclub.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB21&Number=666969&fpart=&PHPSESSID=

http://www4.forum.viperclub.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB21&Number=682797&Forum=All_Forums&Words=10664&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=682797&Search=true#Post682797

"Hi Rob
I think there was about 35 vipers,5 corvettes 1 racing Ferrari,and 4 Gut's by Ford.I had a better time than last year and that was hard to believe.This year I moved up to intermediate.I felt like I was the best in the group,I was passing everyone each time we went out.My racing line through the autocross were right on.I also had about 4 people come up to me and ask about my exhaust .All different people ask the same question , your car was the best sounding car on the track. I told them Atro Racing installed it

Rick"

 

[wormdoggy]

Wormdoggy, I can see from the pictures that you replaced the cats with the Randoms? When you relocate the O2 sensor to the hottest spot on the exhaust you are correct that the O2 will fail from the heat. Just imagine how hot the area is behind the cat after a spirited drive the wires no matter what we have done also will burn from the heat soak. You could try to extend them to the rear of the exhaust but this may also give problems because of the LACK of heat. Best of luck to you.

Mark Jorgensen

Actually no I replaced the headers cats and exhaust with the same manufacturer. I have never installed the RT cats , however, I am contemplating that scenario. I agree that the 02 sensors are in a very hot place and no matter what you place on them for protection, they will fail.

You know that , I know that , We all know that .........what I fail to understand is why I and others are paying for a fix on a system that is less then 6 months to a year old. And why the manufacturer won't indentify the problem. !!!!

Robbie said it best that manufacturers should stand up admit the mistake compensate, fix the problem and then some how regain public confidence. And I don;t mean just the exhaust manufacturers.



Thanks
Patrick

 

[Racer Robbie]

thank you Patrick

Robbie

 

[viper spray]

You should have done a bit more research or left it stock. My car is modded to the max and I have had zero unexpected issues because I expect to run into a challenge or two along the way. **** , that is half the fun when building a hot rod !!

 

[Racer Robbie]

Like my daddy says " No Pain, No Gain" I know what you mean Viper Spray. But what WormDoggy has gone thru is just plain not right. He got screwed over so many times I do not have enough fingers and toes to count on.

Robbie

 

[k4site]

It I had all the money I have spend in my 64 years on mods I would be rich. So I got smart and when I want my present car to go faster I buy a faster car. Secondly my wife got tired of picking me up at the garage. Now I just drive and enjoy and when something goes wrong it is covered under warranty.

 

[zorroespanol]

I hadn't read into this thread yet.

Doggy, you seem to have HAD the misconception that all aftermarket products will work perfectly and do not damage any other products and that is not the truth..

For example:
-Headers that get hot and melt interior components! yes, h.p. increase but at what cost??
-Sticky tires: Great traction! but destroy your differential and clutch!
-Stronger clutch: wrecked transmission!

I can go on and on and on..... ZZzzz..

Bottom line like they said up there. RESEARCH, and realize that it is not as easy as it seems to mod the car CORRECTLY.

 

[wormdoggy]

I hadn't read into this thread yet.

Doggy, you seem to have HAD the misconception that all aftermarket products will work perfectly and do not damage any other products and that is not the truth..

For example:
-Headers that get hot and melt interior components! yes, h.p. increase but at what cost??
-Sticky tires: Great traction! but destroy your differential and clutch!
-Stronger clutch: wrecked transmission!

I can go on and on and on..... ZZzzz..

Bottom line like they said up there. RESEARCH, and realize that it is not as easy as it seems to mod the car CORRECTLY.

I think you seem to have the misconception that I did not do my homework.

The problem is the extreme variation in opinions on the same product by different users. I know very well what I got into when I purchased the product. With respect to headers, I decided to replace the stock shields. On that topic alone 50% of those that have the headers replaced the shield while the other 50% did not.

There never seems to be a consensus on after market products and their usage. I just wish there was in order that the end user can truly decide whether or not to install the product.

I don;t regret what I did , but I would have liked to see some support from manufacturers. And again I am speaking on behalf of the masses because I'm not the only one that has concerns.

The last I heard was that the same manufacturer is looking at re-designing the cat position and the 02 sensors.

Patrick