Would you like to have Active Handling?

[EuG]

Guys coming from C5 side, I’m curious how Viper owners feel about Active Handling?
In case some don’t know how it works:
Active handling utilizes a yaw sensor, to determine if car is moving straight or turning at say 30deg.
It compares it to the steering angle- say you wanted to turn 15deg. In this example car is over-steering (rear sliding out of control)…
Active handling then selectively applies brakes to one or more wheels thus straightening the car out.

Would you like it on a Viper assuming it could be easily turned off if desired?
If no, why not?

Thanks.

 

[EuG]

.

 

[Tenney]

No, thank you. Prefer the car remain simple. Less weight. Less stuff to break. More control in my hands (and feet) versus computer's. Fewer driver aids means more interesting drive, IMO. Do like the addition of ABS, though, because f/r bias and pedal feel was never quite right from factory for me.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

No I don't want it. When I learned the Viper had massive torque and HP with no fills like active handling, I knew these guys were serious about one thing...power.

The lack of these frills is the lure of the Viper. I want Dodge to focus ALL efforts and finances on power. Power is all that matters.

 

[phiebert]

Eug,

Just went through the debate on the Vette board and although I may not feel as strongly as MyViperGTS did, the bottom line with the owners of Vipers is we want power and to be in control of it.

Me, well I am very interested in any new technical break throughs that can be added to vehicles. BUT, not on a Viper! Adding active handling and making a computer able to "assist" your driving is frankly cheating. It's like the drag strip professional guys that just put the pedal to the floor and let a timed computer "watch" the lights and shift for you. That's cheating too in my opinion. Might as well have a crash test dummy in the car and a brick on the gas.

I like Corvettes, but if they were the most powerful North American sports car than you would probably see a shift, in the minds of the owners, from gadgets to remaining most powerful and keeping the driver an important component.

It's too bad this discussion seems to have turned into a Vette vs. Viper discussion. I think the discussion is valid, but it's more about technology vs. human skill than one kind of car versus another.

 

[GR8_ASP]

I agree that AH is not a desireable feature for the Viper. Having the Viper respond to the driver and nothing but the driver is part of its essence. I do agree with the addition of ABS in that the brakes can be better biased, with the rear brakes helping considerably more, due to the elimination of rear lock-up. If a case like that can be made for AH then I might start to listen to arguments for it. Otherwise I would rather put the same amount of money into power and torque or lighter weight.

 

[Paul Fischer]

Absolutely. AH can be a lifesaver on the street where unpredictable road conditions not obvious to the driver can be picked up by the computer and compensated for before the operator is even aware something is amiss. There is a reason this softwre is used in commercail aircraft, I see no reason why I wouldn't want the same protection in my vehicle.

That said I would want an on/off switch for the track. Until I try the specific system in the specific car I couldn't offer a definitive answer, any system must be evaluated before it can be judged. The reviews of the 2001 AH system in the Vette vs. the pre-2000 systems being a case in point.

Technology advances regardless. The imagine the same arguement may have come up over bias/radial tires, carbs and FI, aero vs. factory stock body shape, etc.. If it helps me get around the track faster I'll try it, if it improves safety I'm all for it.

 

[Jeff-00-ACR]

No AH for me. Click on the link below to see the Vettes 'Active Handling' in action!

http://www.askred.com/images/jeffhelms/media/autocross.mpg

Jeff

 

[EuG]

Jeff-00-ACR,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Click on the link below to see the Vettes 'Active Handling' in action!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you say that?

You must be registered for see images

You don’t know if it was on! Judging from the video and having experienced AH personally I can say with 99% assurance that it was OFF.

To Everybody:
I’m really interested in your replies! Keep ‘em coming!

Also, to make this a bit more interesting: how do owners that spun their Vipers (hopefully no damage was done) feel about AH and the fact that it most likely would’ve saved the situation?

(It seems that a lot of C5 guys that DO have AH handling keep it OFF until they get in trouble [too late

You must be registered for see images

] and realize how big a life saver it is/could’ve been)

Thanks.

 

[Jason-Middle Tennessee]

No Active Controlling is only for the Grand Parents of Sports Cars and that would be Corvette's

 

[GTS Dean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EuG:

Also, to make this a bit more interesting: how do owners that spun their Vipers (hopefully no damage was done) feel about AH and the fact that it most likely would’ve saved the situation?

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The proper mechanism for sensing pitch, yaw and roll is between your ears and in the nerve endings in your butt. Active control is accomplished by the proper coordination of foot and hand movements.

When I spin, it means that the #1 performance part in the car needs some work - THE DRIVER. If the car is always correcting the driver's mistakes, how is the driver supposed to improve?

The offshoot of all this fancy technology is that poorer drivers get away with more stupidity all the time, instead of a natural cleansing of the gene pool.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Dean YOU DA MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Viper Owners do not need to have Their senses dulled by mechanisms to enjoy their car. Sorry the others have to.

 

[Mike Brunton]

I've read several threads on the Vette board where people say things like..

"I was going around a turn, and I floored it and the car went sideways... what did I do wrong"

"I was driving real hard, and AH kept kicking in and keeping me on the road - glad I got it!"

I agree with Dean 10,000%. I don't need the car to drive for me. Anyone who pushes their car past their limits on the street to the point where AH would kick in deserve what they get. I can snap the back end of my car out at will, and I can make it do whatever I like whenever I want. I've never had an accident in the Viper, or any car for that matter, although I've experienced more fishtails than a seafood conneiseur at an oceanside barbecue.

I don't *want* AH in the car. There is no way to add it and make it unobtrusive. I think people need to learn to drive their cars better, not the cars learning to keep the people out of trouble more.

My 0.02

 

[Tenney]

EuG, I've spun my car - on track - and all I wished for was a better shifter (and a more coordinated right hand!).

As much as I wish all passenger cars had some form of AH (for obvious reasons) I'm fine with the Viper being the last bastion of sports car without it.

I have a sedan w/AH, it's defeatable and I'm glad because I find it too intrusive. Frankly, it takes the 'sport' out of sport driving, for me.

I'm all for safety but, ultimately, I think we have to be careful what we wish for in terms of driver aids in sports cars. Or sports anything, for that matter. Certainly a motorcycle would have an easier time staying upright with a set training wheels on either axle. But somehow the riding experience wouldn't be quite the same, I'd imagine.

Oh, and what Dean said.

 

[Paul Fischer]

How do you determine the envelope without exceeding it once in awhile? I can't. Braking, turning, loading of any sort; if you want to know where the limit is sometimes you have to look at it from behind. For me it's a neccesary part of learning the car and training the driver. There is a little track near Galveston (Grand Sport) that I used just to find the limits, play with camber etc.. After I'd modded the car I'd go back and determine the effects. If you just want to trust the software designer on the street that's one thing but if you want to improve your driving skills to the point of mastering a Viper it's another thing altogether. You can't push the envelope unless you are willing to break it once in awhile.

 

[EuG]

Guys! There seems to be a confusion here. Most of the replies seem to relate to racing the car at the track one way or the other. I don’t know if that’s where you use the car mostly, but what I meant was everyday driving on the street. Driver skill is irrelevant sometimes, you know. Road conditions are too unpredictable and the surface is not always smooth or dry (I don’t mean rain either) I called for people who spun their Vipers on the street. Those should know exactly what I’m talking about.

I’ve spun my IROC a few times (no or little damage was done thank God)
All times if was my mistake/fault, but looking back at it I didn’t exceed car’s handling envelope, but rather pushed it in the wrong road conditions which were unknown too me prior to the incidents. It was completely out of my control and same thing would’ve happened to any other driver if he decided to have fun on that particular road at that particular time…

Be safe!

 

[EuG]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I mean no disrespect, but just becasue the majority of the people didn't agree with you that AH is a great thing doesn't mean they are "confused" about what you are asking.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing. It’s just that word “track” was mentioned too many times. I just wanted to be clear that I did not intend this as a way to improve you lap times or anything like that (although I think it could for some drivers…)

 

[phiebert]

Jon, you're downright nasty! But I like it!

 

[phiebert]

Did the active handling actually make a difference in that situation (ladder avoidance?). You probably neither applied gas or brakes but simply turned the wheel. Am I off base with this or can active handling avoid sliding sideways when it isn't caused by wheel spin from overpowering or breaking but just from cranking the steering wheel at high speeds? If so, I do want it, but I don't understand it.

 

[EuG]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Am I off base with this or can active handling avoid sliding sideways when it isn't caused by wheel spin from overpowering or breaking but just from cranking the steering wheel at high speeds?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s is exactly correct. It doesn’t matter if you’re overpowering your rear wheels fishtailing (over steering) or overestimated a turn (coming in too hot) and under steering. AH is designed to correct the car either way. It can’t defy laws of physics: say you try to negotiate a sharp 90deg turn at 100MPH

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, but it sure tries

You must be registered for see images

….

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>… but I don't understand it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s exactly the impression I’ve got from most opposes of AH (not just Viper owners btw!) and that’s part of the reason why I wanted to post here - to get you guys familiarized with it. After all that’s what these discussion board are for: sharing knowledge about cars!

Here’s a great article on Active Handling and some cool tests that show/prove how it works: http://vette.ida.net/hib/ah1.htm

 

[HogWhisperer]

Hey EuG,

Yep, the AH feature is neat. Especially for the circumstance you described with avoiding the ladder.

I experimented yesterday with the AH in my (wife's) Z06. I must say that it was a really strange feeling. While in a 90 degree turn at about 45 mph, I was allowing the *** end to swing out some, (not come all the way around) and to my surprise, the car's AH kicked in and straightened me up. MAN! that was different! Again, for the circumstance that you described, I think it is a VERY good feature. But for the track? No way, no how.

Would I like it on my Viper? Not sure. I don't drive my Viper on the street much so probably not. ABS though? Now that's a different matter!

 

[Paul Fischer]

If anything this thread illustrates that the Viper is a different breed of car for a very different breed of driver. The more the word "track" comes up in evaluating the car the better for this bunch. Gotta love it, my kind of people.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DARTH VETTER:
I happened to get caught in the rain on the freeway and while going 70mph, all of the sudden a LADDER falls off a pick- up truck in front of me. Rapid/Violent lane chage to the right and then back to the left to avoid an 18 wheeler. I"M GLAD I'VE GOT IT! The car handled like it was on a dry race-course slalom.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now here is a perfect example of when it could save lives, in any car especially a Viper! I would think you would be able to turn it off for the track ET

You must be registered for see images

Dean,
As to the stupid drivers...Vote yes for the open season / bounty on those left lane’n, no turn signal’n, slow moving, only people in the world, $%#^@&&^%$ divers! (It's not just in Texas! It's like the fire ants....THERE EVERYWHERE!). Limiting roads didn’t stop them feriners from moving into Austin! I suspect limiting technology won't take the licenses from those stupid drivers. And don't get me started on ALL THE LAWS THEY BREAK AND POLICE DON'T INFORCE........................LEFT LANE RIDEING%^^$$#*&^%$$….did I get off subject some where?

 

[Tenney]

As Paul B. illustrates in his take on his wife's car, a performance AH system can be a tricky thing - and adds a bit of a wrinkle to those who might wish to steer with the throttle.

If (think big if, here) I were in the market for a car with a sport-type AH set-up, I'm not sure I'd be shopping Chevrolet (or Dodge, for that matter). I'd look for a source that has been working with this type of stuff for a while and at this point it seems Porsche has the least intrusive AH available (at a semi-sane price) in the 996TT. That might be the place to look first.

 

[GTS Dean]

EuG -

I don't want Active Handling on ANY Viper, PERIOD!!! With, or without, a defeat switch.

You just don't seem to get the whole idea of the Dodge Viper, do you? This is a no-nonsense, no frills, in-your-face, brutish, powerful, exhilarating, difficult-to-drive (much less master), mega-motored, American-made Killer Car. This automobile does NOT belong in the hands of people just because they can afford it - it is for people who absolutely LOVE IT even with all the "faults" many would complain about.

If you can't live with the Viper the way it's delivered, sell it to someone who can, then go buy yourself a 'Vette. This sort of thing happens aroud Dallas all the time. I've never been able to fathom the number of Vipers that are constantly for sale in the DFW area any other way. The car very quickly separates the wannabe posers from the purists and seriously afflicted types.

Picture this in your mind, and maybe you'll begin to understand:

69 Vette, stroked 427 with port fuel injection, air conditioning, 6-speed, big fat radial tires, radial-tuned suspension, larger brakes.

There now, would you love this car? No? Then keep your C5 and go away from here!

 

[Mike Brunton]

I think alot of non-Viper owners look at the car from the perspective of other sports cars they are familiar with. The Viper is not like any other sports car.

Some people think it's going to turn into what the Vette is, and some people think it's unrefined or even unfinished. These people do not understand what the Viper is all about.

The Viper is all about the basics you need for a great car. Big engine, strong driveline, fat tires, etc. I'd love to see the car change a bit... but the changes I'd like are less weight, more power, etc. The Viper doesn't really compete with the Vette right now, and I think Dodge is smart enough not to get into that game. Just like Dave Hill has publicly said he is NOT in a horsepower war with Dodge, Dodge is likewise NOT in a comfort war with GM.

I don't think Dodge has any visions of the Viper being a profitable vehicle like the Vette is. If they soften the car, they soften it's image, which is the worst thing they could do.

I think any car purist out there would have an absolute blast in a Viper. It is not a car for the meek, and it should not be bought based only on looks or for status. Only a true enthusiast should own this car, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[EuG]

Thanks for good, civil responses from most of you.

 

[Tenney]

Make that Vette a '67 and the big block aluminum (cast iron = push monster) and there might be a spot for it in my garage.

 

[Kid97GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTS Dean:
EuG -

I don't want Active Handling on ANY Viper, PERIOD!!! With, or without, a defeat switch.

You just don't seem to get the whole idea of the Dodge Viper, do you? This is a no-nonsense, no frills, in-your-face, brutish, powerful, exhilarating, difficult-to-drive (much less master), mega-motored, American-made Killer Car. This automobile does NOT belong in the hands of people just because they can afford it - it is for people who absolutely LOVE IT even with all the "faults" many would complain about.

If you can't live with the Viper the way it's delivered, sell it to someone who can, then go buy yourself a 'Vette. This sort of thing happens aroud Dallas all the time. I've never been able to fathom the number of Vipers that are constantly for sale in the DFW area any other way. The car very quickly separates the wannabe posers from the purists and seriously afflicted types.

Picture this in your mind, and maybe you'll begin to understand:

69 Vette, stroked 427 with port fuel injection, air conditioning, 6-speed, big fat radial tires, radial-tuned suspension, larger brakes.

There now, would you love this car? No? Then keep your C5 and go away from here!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely. I have never liked a car as much as the Viper. My purchase turned me into a Viper freak! One of the best things about it is the simplicity of the package (read: less stuff to break). As far as comfort goes, the Viper is a Rolls compared to my daily driver (a '66 injected small block Chevelle with no AC or heat (extra weight) and 4:56 gears)! And for the temporary Viper owners that choose to sell as soon as they realize the car isn't like the NSX or the C5 they owned before, GOOD! That just leaves some great deals on hardly used Vipers that someone who has a full appreciation for the car can snap up!

Please, keep the AH, automatic climate control, heated seats, run-flat tires, and even the stinkin' cupholder out of the Viper! If I wanted that I would have bought a Vette in the first place. The Viper serves a devoted niche that really isn't served by any other production cars today, and Dodge should keep it that way.

 

[rschiltz]

I think the AH is a good thing also, esp. in bad elements. The great thing about it is that it can easily be turned off. I understand the point of the Viper owners though.