Like I said. MCVO has an autocross event every year and we had one this year. And it is held at Chelsea on the same course that you ran (minor adjustments year to year but the same basic layout). I am the motorsports director for MCVO and did not hear about this until a few weeks prior to the event when you guys started posting that you were coming. Nothing came through the VCA or through the zone director. I sit on the MCVO board and can state clearly that our region was not informed. I stand by my words, this was not a VCA event. Said without a "snicker."
2007 Viper AX Challenge vs SRT
- Thread starter Tom F&L GoR
- Start date
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
I really am sorry if some members weren't informed or able to go. It's admittedly juvenile to say mark your calendar for something two years from now. However, your previous post doesn't acknowledge there were participants who did have a competitive event and did earn their spot. And we also have a little autocross experience, so it basically sounded like you were saying "we stink."
On another topic, if you run at Chelsea, are you saying "on Chrysler property?" What cars do you use - your own? Do you compete against the SRT guys and what cars do they use? I would love to bring my car to a VCA vs. SRT event and compare my Gen 1 to new stuff. Hey, I would join the MCVO if you'd let me... even though I might stink.
On another topic, if you run at Chelsea, are you saying "on Chrysler property?" What cars do you use - your own? Do you compete against the SRT guys and what cars do they use? I would love to bring my car to a VCA vs. SRT event and compare my Gen 1 to new stuff. Hey, I would join the MCVO if you'd let me... even though I might stink.
Our club autocross event is at Chelsea PG. Since we have several members that are also Chrysler employees we may have an advantage in that arena. But no, it is an MCVO event and no SRT people play, unless of course they own a Viper and are MCVO members. And like most club events we use our own cars. At our MCVO event we had participants from Michigan, Illinois and Ontario.
And, I have no kind way of describing a 90 second best run out of 6 tries. We did have some that were in that range, but they were first timers and having fun learning their cars. On that layout we generally range from mid 70's to low 80's for (Gen I. Gen II, Gen III and modified). A little quicker in years with more generous turn radii. This years layout was extremely tight due to a lack of cones, but the overall size and length remains fairly constant.
Here is a link to the posting from the event http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=602910
And, I have no kind way of describing a 90 second best run out of 6 tries. We did have some that were in that range, but they were first timers and having fun learning their cars. On that layout we generally range from mid 70's to low 80's for (Gen I. Gen II, Gen III and modified). A little quicker in years with more generous turn radii. This years layout was extremely tight due to a lack of cones, but the overall size and length remains fairly constant.
Here is a link to the posting from the event http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=602910
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Andrew2KRT10
Enthusiast
ASP: I responded to your previous post last night, but something went wrong and the whole thing got deleted. Good thing it did cause I was way more pi**ed off then, and more calm now.
Bottom line: Who are you to say it was not a VCA event? Did I miss something? Last I remember, the big thing at the event was that ONLY VCA members were able to drive. So lets see. VCA members driving = VCA event. No discussion. If one or two others got to drive, know what? Good, casue it was all happening for FUN. Remember that thing called FUN ? That's why we have this club in the first place.
But in a nut shell, sounds to me like a lot of wha, wha, moaning and groaning becasue your Zone didn 't get the info. Lots of other Zones managed to get the info, and if you heard about this a "few weeks prior" to the event, I would have thought that still was enough time for you or whomever responsible to speak up and maybe something could have been done to get your two best drivers into the event. I have a hard time believing that the VCA National officers, or SRT would have given you an argument about joining in if your Zone had really held an AX event like we did to come up with the qualifying drivers.
Heck, I only made my plane reservations a "few weeks prior" to the event. I only filled out the registration form a "few weeks prior" to the event. So why didn't you guys speak up? And as for advanced notice. There was plenty of BS going back and forth between NY and NJ out of fun, for a couple of months prior to the event on the discussion board. Where were you ?
Seems to me that your guys somehow missed the boat; not our problem. And your mid 70's to low 80's times are right in line with most of the times, so I wouldn't be bragging so much. I don't know where you are getting 90's from. Even SRT guys hit 90's on the first runs of the day, but the times quickly came down by 10 seconds and more.
See you next time. Your Zone needs to pay attention.
AC
Bottom line: Who are you to say it was not a VCA event? Did I miss something? Last I remember, the big thing at the event was that ONLY VCA members were able to drive. So lets see. VCA members driving = VCA event. No discussion. If one or two others got to drive, know what? Good, casue it was all happening for FUN. Remember that thing called FUN ? That's why we have this club in the first place.
But in a nut shell, sounds to me like a lot of wha, wha, moaning and groaning becasue your Zone didn 't get the info. Lots of other Zones managed to get the info, and if you heard about this a "few weeks prior" to the event, I would have thought that still was enough time for you or whomever responsible to speak up and maybe something could have been done to get your two best drivers into the event. I have a hard time believing that the VCA National officers, or SRT would have given you an argument about joining in if your Zone had really held an AX event like we did to come up with the qualifying drivers.
Heck, I only made my plane reservations a "few weeks prior" to the event. I only filled out the registration form a "few weeks prior" to the event. So why didn't you guys speak up? And as for advanced notice. There was plenty of BS going back and forth between NY and NJ out of fun, for a couple of months prior to the event on the discussion board. Where were you ?
Seems to me that your guys somehow missed the boat; not our problem. And your mid 70's to low 80's times are right in line with most of the times, so I wouldn't be bragging so much. I don't know where you are getting 90's from. Even SRT guys hit 90's on the first runs of the day, but the times quickly came down by 10 seconds and more.
See you next time. Your Zone needs to pay attention.
AC
I will take this up with our zone director as that seems to be where the lapse is. But Andrew you have quite the attitude in your response. I say take a pill before you lose a blood vessel.
First, for a short while, there was a complete listing of all participants and their times here on this thread. There were some that did not do any better than 90 seconds. If you want to disprove that I suggest you get whomever removed the post to put it back up. Seems mysterious that it was removed in the first place. Reminds me of the good ole days of the VCA higher ups.
I saw no place where anyone was bragging. I was only stating the facts as I have witnessed them. As we use the same track and have for over a decade I have a pretty good practical experience to base my statements on.
As to your zone needs to pay attention comment you really mean the 2 people that have relations with the national club. There is nothing individuals in ours or any club can do if the communication is poor or limited between the VCA and our local club. Like I said I am on the local board and this topic was never raised (at least to my knowledge - I could have been sleeping). But as the motorsports director you think I would have been informed by someone.
Enough is enough. There is nothing to be gained here except maybe having a blood vessel burst due to your unwarranted anger.
First, for a short while, there was a complete listing of all participants and their times here on this thread. There were some that did not do any better than 90 seconds. If you want to disprove that I suggest you get whomever removed the post to put it back up. Seems mysterious that it was removed in the first place. Reminds me of the good ole days of the VCA higher ups.
I saw no place where anyone was bragging. I was only stating the facts as I have witnessed them. As we use the same track and have for over a decade I have a pretty good practical experience to base my statements on.
As to your zone needs to pay attention comment you really mean the 2 people that have relations with the national club. There is nothing individuals in ours or any club can do if the communication is poor or limited between the VCA and our local club. Like I said I am on the local board and this topic was never raised (at least to my knowledge - I could have been sleeping). But as the motorsports director you think I would have been informed by someone.
Enough is enough. There is nothing to be gained here except maybe having a blood vessel burst due to your unwarranted anger.
And, gotta remember that Andrew IS considered one of the best in our region~!~juli
Tom and Andrew are also class acts. Perhaps the fastest autoX times are not the only factor being considered when selecting representatives for this VCA event. Tom/Andrew: Congratulations on representing the NY/CT region! See you soon, hopefully at Tator's on the 13th.
- Tony
Ooh, to read between the lines. Others (probably directed toward me) are not class acts. And that politics plays a part in selections. Class(ic) statements!
I have no idea who you are ViperTony but that says quite a bit. And in fact echoes concerns that existed about the previous VCA ruling class. Does that attitude still ring true on the east coast???
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Thanks for the link to the past event info. I only saw one sub-80 second driver in your event results, so I guess the high to mid 70's at this event weren't that bad after all. So yes, your comments came across as sounding like nobody was any good.
I'm also disappointed that I didn't show better - I've run EMod and ASP in my Cobra and ASP in my Gen 1 for years. I've won every VCA AX event I've entered. But unfortunately the Gen 3/4 cars you are familiar with, and that we used at this event, are much different than my Gen1. And I'm a slow learner, I guess.
Let us know what your zone director says. We should wait for that before we address the politics, the ruling class, the east coast attitude, and other comments.
As a suggestion - maybe we can ask Dodge to sponsor a member-region AX event. Have the regions produce participants through local competitions and ask Dodge to support a region vs. region vs. region AX at Chelsea with the same accomodations as this SRT-VCA event. If it is half as successful as the NY/CT vs. NJ event, then we'd have another VOI or Rendezvous type event.
I'm also disappointed that I didn't show better - I've run EMod and ASP in my Cobra and ASP in my Gen 1 for years. I've won every VCA AX event I've entered. But unfortunately the Gen 3/4 cars you are familiar with, and that we used at this event, are much different than my Gen1. And I'm a slow learner, I guess.
Let us know what your zone director says. We should wait for that before we address the politics, the ruling class, the east coast attitude, and other comments.
As a suggestion - maybe we can ask Dodge to sponsor a member-region AX event. Have the regions produce participants through local competitions and ask Dodge to support a region vs. region vs. region AX at Chelsea with the same accomodations as this SRT-VCA event. If it is half as successful as the NY/CT vs. NJ event, then we'd have another VOI or Rendezvous type event.
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Dang it, I was hoping this would just peacefully age until the next VCA vs. SRT autocross, but apparently not. Allow me to tell you how this went down in every respect:
First off, the times that were posted came off for a couple of reasons:
Now as for the Regions and Zones that were represented, the simple fact is that some Regions and Zones knew about it while others did not. Indeed, I suspect that even National was caught a little off guard - forgetting that because there were no Zone Rendezvous' this year that there would be no qualifying autocross events. The one event in my region/zone was moved from Topeka to Memphis at the very last minute (SRT Nationals) and we were informed that SRT wasn't going to support it this year. I also know that the VCA vs. SRT event was posted regarding the Northeast Zone qualifying back in April, for what it is worth.
I would suggest that if anybody continues to have heartburn that they take it up with their respective regional and/or zone officers. I wish I could help more, but as the Treasurer it was completely outside of my jurisdiction and I just can't provide any additional insight.
And two last personal notes: GR8 ASP, I am disappointed that you would insult the website staff by incorrectly accusing them of removing a post with no explanation. The ONE person that was affected (the guy who posted it) was contacted immediately with the explanation - and understood completely. The "good ole days" are gone. The second is regarding Ben's pointed post - now removed: As I recall Ben wanted to join the VCA after setting one of the best times at the zone autocross so he could go to Detroit.. He wasn't a VCA member at the time and therefore didn't qualify. He was royally ticked off and wrote in this very forum, "However, I have concluded that I do not want to be part of any organization that operates this way." We refunded his payment promptly - the one he sent in after the event. He wasn't banned - we very politely refunded his money when he requested it. The best intentions...
To those that qualified for this event, congrats on some great runs and doing the VCA proud. For those that didn't make it for one reason or another, I am confident you will get many more opportunities and am sorry we can't improve this year's event after the fact. And to my fellow national officers - if we have to drive again can we at least practice somewhere first?
First off, the times that were posted came off for a couple of reasons:
- There were a couple people pretty embarrassed by their times - including myself. And for good reason: Folks like GR8 ASP jumped all over it and pointed out that they would hardly be best of the region, much less best in the country. No good-natured "smack" there - it was just plain mean and uncalled for. It should be noted that some of the worst times were posted by the national officers. Much to my dismay, I learned a week beforehand that the National officers were expected to drive in this event. Apparently a tradition and one that certainly didn't help the VCA cause when it came to the competition itself. Oh, and it was a totally different track as we were told by the SCCA and SRT.
- That list contained a lot of names of Chrysler and SRT employees - first and last. In case you haven't noticed we refrain from putting employee names on the forums and they most definitely prefer it. How many people that post here actually own up to being Chrysler employees? VERY, very few. They don't need a bunch of eager Viper fans calling, writing, etc.
Now as for the Regions and Zones that were represented, the simple fact is that some Regions and Zones knew about it while others did not. Indeed, I suspect that even National was caught a little off guard - forgetting that because there were no Zone Rendezvous' this year that there would be no qualifying autocross events. The one event in my region/zone was moved from Topeka to Memphis at the very last minute (SRT Nationals) and we were informed that SRT wasn't going to support it this year. I also know that the VCA vs. SRT event was posted regarding the Northeast Zone qualifying back in April, for what it is worth.
I would suggest that if anybody continues to have heartburn that they take it up with their respective regional and/or zone officers. I wish I could help more, but as the Treasurer it was completely outside of my jurisdiction and I just can't provide any additional insight.
And two last personal notes: GR8 ASP, I am disappointed that you would insult the website staff by incorrectly accusing them of removing a post with no explanation. The ONE person that was affected (the guy who posted it) was contacted immediately with the explanation - and understood completely. The "good ole days" are gone. The second is regarding Ben's pointed post - now removed: As I recall Ben wanted to join the VCA after setting one of the best times at the zone autocross so he could go to Detroit.. He wasn't a VCA member at the time and therefore didn't qualify. He was royally ticked off and wrote in this very forum, "However, I have concluded that I do not want to be part of any organization that operates this way." We refunded his payment promptly - the one he sent in after the event. He wasn't banned - we very politely refunded his money when he requested it. The best intentions...
To those that qualified for this event, congrats on some great runs and doing the VCA proud. For those that didn't make it for one reason or another, I am confident you will get many more opportunities and am sorry we can't improve this year's event after the fact. And to my fellow national officers - if we have to drive again can we at least practice somewhere first?
Andrew2KRT10
Enthusiast
I really need to bite my tounge, not take a pill. Enough.
My apology, I didn't mean to come across that way GR8ASP. Nothing to read between the lines as far as you're concerned. I should've been more specific. I was simply trying to point out that Tom and Andrew are not only great drivers but class acts in our region. And perhaps, fast times was only one consideration for this event, being a class act another, being active in our region, etc. I didn't mean to disparage you personally in any way. I never met you and it would be unfair of me to guage whether or not you're a class act. Hopefully someday we'll meet over a few beers.
Though nobody will ever be in complete agreement with the VCA ruling class (I know I'm not on several issues) I don't know what issues or concerns existed with them in the past. Chris has gotten his share of feedback from me
. In my region, this event and qualifying for it, was communicated quite clearly and often. Heck...even us yocals in the outbacks of CT knew about it. So I can't complain about our region not communicating it, they did and I'm happy with who was chosen to represent us. They earned it.One complaint GR8ASP: Without knowing who you are and reading your posts here it seems like sour grapes from you and criticzing their times just seems rude in the spirit of this event. My advice to you is to contact VCA and air out your concerns with them, not Tom and Andrew. I'd like this thread to get back to the details of the event and I would like to hear more details from Tom and Andrew about their exciting day with the SRT gang.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
I did talk to Ralph Gilles (I hope I spelled that right) who designed the latest Viper body style. Far from being an artsy guy, he's an engineer type, owns a Viper and is an active local VCA member. And he's got lots of miles on it. Ask him what's going on and he'll actually tell you numbers...
Anyway, he's had some things to do with the 300C and now the new model Ram truck. Here's some info - the light duty and heavy duty Ram will no longer look the same. The HD (diesel) version will have a larger grill than the LD trucks. That allows the aero design for LD, but the air flow requirements for HD. Also, he talked about "CDA" - the coefficient of drag times the frontal area. He said the truck line spent the most time in the wind tunnel of all and despite being slightly larger frontal area, the final CDA value is smaller. He is anxiously awaiting the fall car shows, since both the new Ram and the new Ford trucks will be introduced.
While low sulfur diesel fuel is now available, the emissions regulations are even stricter, so there has been much work on diesel engine combustion. There is a smaller V8 diesel in the works for the very near future, too. (I favor diesel greatly, as it has distinct advantages in refinery production, simplicity, and for torquey engines like pick ups, larger cars, etc. A two-fuel (gasoline + diesel) consumer structure would provide tremendous economies for the US.)
Two of the SRT guys had to leave early - they had a $500 Neon in the 24 hours of Limons, the rent-a-wreck marathon. I hope they did well - look for the astroturf to find them.
Anyway, he's had some things to do with the 300C and now the new model Ram truck. Here's some info - the light duty and heavy duty Ram will no longer look the same. The HD (diesel) version will have a larger grill than the LD trucks. That allows the aero design for LD, but the air flow requirements for HD. Also, he talked about "CDA" - the coefficient of drag times the frontal area. He said the truck line spent the most time in the wind tunnel of all and despite being slightly larger frontal area, the final CDA value is smaller. He is anxiously awaiting the fall car shows, since both the new Ram and the new Ford trucks will be introduced.
While low sulfur diesel fuel is now available, the emissions regulations are even stricter, so there has been much work on diesel engine combustion. There is a smaller V8 diesel in the works for the very near future, too. (I favor diesel greatly, as it has distinct advantages in refinery production, simplicity, and for torquey engines like pick ups, larger cars, etc. A two-fuel (gasoline + diesel) consumer structure would provide tremendous economies for the US.)
Two of the SRT guys had to leave early - they had a $500 Neon in the 24 hours of Limons, the rent-a-wreck marathon. I hope they did well - look for the astroturf to find them.
Andrew2KRT10
Enthusiast
yeah, I remember them talking about how great the CDA was on the trucks. You would never beleive it.
Personally I hate the diesel vehicles. Maybe the function is more efficient and maybe there are other advantages, but every single time I am behind one of these diesels I have to hold my breath and move out of the way and pass them. And that is not with just the older ones. Some that look brand new give off the fumes I can't take.
Personally I hate the diesel vehicles. Maybe the function is more efficient and maybe there are other advantages, but every single time I am behind one of these diesels I have to hold my breath and move out of the way and pass them. And that is not with just the older ones. Some that look brand new give off the fumes I can't take.
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