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Discussion in 'SRT10 and SRT10 Coupe Discussions' started by black mamba1, Jun 28, 2007.
And the people say "AMEN"!!!
i think the only thing that will give you a satisfactory answer is two cars running side by side, so go buy one of each, whichever is faster, keep that one...........
Some good reading lately.....
Random thoughts on this thread:
1 - Based on what I've read, go with the stock Paxton kit. It will be more than enough for you (and most people) at this point. It will also be very dependable and much cheaper than going to the dark side - 900 + rwhp. It will work better on a race track too.
2 - Not sure what some of you guys mean when you say that a S/C car is going to be "exerting a whole lot more effort" at the top of each gear. Power does build in a very linear fashion with rpms in a S/C car and there is definitely a strong finish to each gear as the supercharger spins faster. I think a S/C car is generally easier to control for most when compared with a TT car.
3 - TT cars tend to "hit harder" (make more torque) lower in the power band and depending on the Turbos and the tuning, may not continue to produce power in a linear fashion all the way to the rev limiter. I know some tuners are making this situation better using AEM and other tuning computers by limiting boost in lower gears. You won't have to do this with a S/C car.
4 - I would guess that a properly set up TT car making 800 rwhp at peak would out run a good running S/C car making 900 rwhp at peak provided both can get the power to the groud. There is more power under the curve in the TT car and the S/C cars suffer from parasitic power loss due to the power needed to run the S/C.
5 - I've seen too many Viper owners go for a Paxton kit and then continue to make changes like adding boost (without forging the internals or upgrading the fuel system) to get good dyno numbers. These cars usually detonate and self destruct.
6 - I'm about at the power limit on the street with my 925 rwhp Paxton car. I had to make many very costly changes to get the power to the ground and keep the car together, so don't think you'll make big power cheaply for long with the S/C. Examples of additional costs are forged internals, heads, cam, roller rockers, headers, new fuel system, AEM, bigger radiator, quaife diff, stronger clutch + pp, Motons, Kumhos, 1/2 shafts, etc. etc. New motor mounts go in shortly along with a water/meth injection system to keep intake air temps cooler. Bad gas can be a problem too, so you may want knock sensors.
7 - You'll have to deal extra heat regardless of which way you go. The more HP / TQ you make, the more heat. I wouldn't recommend trying to track a 900+ rwhp car in the summer. You will melt things like spark plugs, engine parts, etc.
Recommendations: Base Paxton system for 650 rwhp or if you want more, 800 rwhp TT. Stay away from the dark side if you can.
Thanks Dan, best answer so far...even though all you guys chiming in have given some really good info. I think many of us new owners (I am on my first Viper, bought is last Sept) are having this debate of which way to go. It seems many of you guys who have power in the 925 rwhp range almost seem as if you could take it or leave it, but I really do understand the desire for such a powerful car. This is a really good debate and I see the advantages of each. More room to grow w/ TT, but the Paxton seems more practical overall for Most of us drivers. A 650 rwhp Paxton seems like a nice fit...until the 650 rwhp Roe hits the scene for the Gen 3...now that throws a whole nuther wrinkle in the debate for Vipers in that power range!
BlackMamba: That's what we are waiting for, the Roe s/c for our '05. As you already know, we've decided for our own reasons (and Chuck Tator's advice) not to go with Paxton. We're content to wait, though really Sean's gotta LOTTA years to make up for with that s/c ('03-'07)..LOTS of Vipers waiting on that one...emailed him a couple weeks back, and they're still in production phase--problem with the hood still is an issue.
Good Luck with your options, and you've certainly done your research and gotten great advice from the 'experts' on this forum! ~juli~
Black Mamba I'm in the same condition of you!
Whit a SRT 10,full Belanger system (header,catalyzator not original Belanger 400 cells ceramic but a customized racing 100 cells metallic and silencer!!!), BMC air filter.
Next step I want repair original terrible set up with a Moton/Eibach amortizator/ring.
But my target is a S/C or TT!!??
I read this interesting debate.
I ageed with Viper x :
additional costs are forged internals, heads, cam, roller rockers, headers, new fuel system, AEM, bigger radiator, quaife diff, stronger clutch + pp, Motons, Kumhos, 1/2 shafts, etc. etc. New motor mounts go in shortly along with a water/meth injection system to keep intake air temps cooler.
but also agreed with Mike& July to wait for the Roe S/C.....
Luigi--What year Viper do you have? Yeah, who knows how long we'll have to wait for Roe's s/c--he's certainly been working on getting it produced, and since he has the reputation for perfection/quality, we believe it's worth waiting for. Sounds like you got an awesome setup there!! ~juli~
My SRT 10 is a 2006 ( one of a few italian Viper!)
I'm ready to wait whit you the best solution for our fun
Luigi from IT
when you hear any news/rumors in the matter inform me....I wait from Italy US power for my beast!
you wont need foged internals if ya keep the tune safe and under 700rwhp i think.
i just dont like the idea of having to swap to another hood to fit a S/C. but admittedly the hood would look good. but the hood and paint is gonna kill the cost of the s/c.
Apparently according to Chuck Tator today (Sat. June 30th)...he says Roe is starting to sell the superchargers SOON...will email Sean or call him next week. We do not wish to change the hood either, and Chuck says Sean developed the s/c so we don't have to, and it is a BETTER s/c than previous ones....so we shall see.....juli
The Roe Blower should have explosive power down low and will carry it throught the RPM range.
The Paxton will not be very noticable down low but as the RPMs climb the boost will increase and so will the power along with it. The Paxton should make more peak hp than the Roe but it will have considerably less usable power further down the RPM range....(though Roe's new 3.3 may put down some big numbers)
Turbos, once they spool up, will give you much more usable power down low over the Paxton and will ultimatly have the potential to make the most power.
Do some surfing/searching and look for dyno graphs of vipers equiped with all three styles of forced induction. Look at the power curves on the graphs, it will be easier to understand the differences of each design.
You are right the Paxton does not make as much power down low. But I do not think 550 ft lb at 3000 rpm is low.
Any idea why Tator is against the Paxton and advises people to not get it? I have heard very little negative about the Paxton and I have somewhere around 15,000 miles with one, including several track events. However, I have heard lots of things about the Roe Gen II kit that is not that impressive. Mostly related to calibration sensitivity and the lack of a intercooler. To date the above comment attributed to Tator advising against the Paxton is the only things I have heard like that. Woodhouse installs many and markets it strongly. Hmm.
rounded up a couple graphs to compare..different cars with different mods but you can get the idea of where the power is by looking at the graphs.
Roe (estimated?) dyno graph
Top curve is Paxton. 2nd is a Roe
and torque. Note the runs started at just under 3000 rpm.
i still say a ROE car with all that power/torque down low like that is a lot harder to drive and keep the tires on the ground. im sure its better for drag racing but not anything else.
if you have that (roe)instant on power, its a jolt rather than (paxton) smooth power coming in. i'll take smooth for my driving.
and from what i can tell a roe car will fall flat higher up in the RPM's compared to a paxton car will keep building power till the top of the rpm's. which for me doing highway pulls seems better and easier on the car.
Roe (Twinscrew S/C),
I would never use a Roe. Not that it is not a good superchanger but, it's just too small. The one from Roe SC is good for a 4.0L-6.0L mill. Now if it was a larger SC...it would ROCK!
It is the worst of both worlds. Lag of a HUGE turbo and the power loss of a S/C. Now with the Viper having a moster motor, that low end loss isn't so much of a bad thing. But I still wouldn't spend my money on one.
Turbos if made correctly will spool quickly, have a nice smooth tq curve. It will lose close to 5-10% peak TQ at redline. A 67 is good for a mild street turbo (but it's on the small side.) 76's are just about perfect. 88's are on the bigger side but would make a good race system. Garret makes a 136mm Use a pair of them..but it would make enough power to twist a viper frame (6,000hp anyone?). But you'd have to use NO2 to spool them.(I'd love to see something like this on a drag viper)
If your not in boost, you will get good MPG to boot(if your not running a crazy fuel system to support 1500rwhp+).
Honestly, it sounds as if your mind is already made up. You want a paxton. And nobody is going to change your mind. Remember, you get what you pay for.
I am bias to turbos
I was at Tators getting my mods put on and I asked him the same question. He told me it was b/c of the number of Vipers he sees coming into his shop w/ damage caused by the Paxtons that he has to repair. I am not quoting Chuck exactly b/c I cannot remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of.."I end up removing as many Paxtons from Gen 3 Vipers as I have installed..". Now again, I am paraphrasing but he said something along those lines. He has nothing against Paxtons per se, he says the Roe is simply better and better on the Viper overall.
For my driving style, the Paxton seems better. Of the 1/4 mile races and street fights I have lost or done poorly in, it was b/c I could not hook up in first and second gear. The Roe make this problem even worse. But that boils down to me simply becoming a better driver. I respect Chucks advice, hell, they dont fly him all the way to England to fix Vipers for no reason!! All in all, the Roe will win a street dogfight (closed street of course and make sure you dont break the decibel law). I noticed at Lime Rock the best drivers and best times came from guys w/ STOCK VIPERS. I had a conversation w/ a really nice guy that is now a good friend. He has a Paxton w/ 774 rwhp. I asked him where does he use that at? He said its just cool to be able to say you have it....hmmmm
There is no lag if the Paxton is set up correctly. Disturbed, you should have ridden in my SRT while you were in LA a couple of weeks ago. My Paxton SRT-10 makes over 600 rwtq at 3000 rpm.
Roe's are limited at the top end. At least the Gen II's were and Paxton's do pull very hard up top. You can always shift "short" if you need to with the Paxton.
A TT set up will make more power down low but, and here's a big but, take a look at your shift points and notice what RPM you end up at in the next gear when you shift from 1 to 2, 2 to 3 etc. You will end up in a good place with the Paxton, power wise and power will be more manageable from a stop on street tires.
One of our local club members just went 202 mph in the 1 mile drags at the Silver State. He now holds the record for the mile at that race. Keep in mind that this was at 6500 feet above sea level. His GTS runs two Paxtons and a bunch of Nitrous. Contact DC Performance for more info.
jeez, i gotta see THAT !!!
I read the DC webstie and it stated they do not make that kit anymore.
So, out of all the guys w/ Paxtons I am sure many of you have tracked your car. Do you see any significant advantage in road racing w/ your Paxtons say vs the Roe or TT? I would imagine the TT would have the overall advantage. But the real debate is the Roe vs Paxton on say the road course. I agree w/ Plum Crazy that it seems as if the Paxton would have the advantage over the Roe in a highway pull, but what about a road course?
cause of the intercooler id still go with a paxton on a road course. and again i wouldnt want that instant on power the roe delivers.
but YES, a TT would be the best
In the street tire class I ran 3 different TT Vipers at bradenton this past year. They all lost to my S/C Paxton. Even with AEM they could only put down so much power. I had 3 runs that were consistent 10.40, 10.43 10.45. I prefer the S/C with the whine. It is more in your face, rough, tough and fits the Viper image better.
Road course with a remote extra large cooler I have it adds an additional 5 gallons of water. The 3 runs I mentioned above were all run in less then 30 minutes so with this DLM system there is very little if any drop off in power while continiously boosting. I have a 5 minute video of the event if anyone would like to see it. It even has an F430 racing a Gallardo not once but twice down the 1320.
rick, post the vid.
My Viper tech prefers the Roe, but from what I am reading the Paxton seems more and more attractive. I do not want to do a bunch of engine mods right now, I want to keep the rwhp around 700-750, in the safe range w/ the stock pistons. My main concern w/ the Roe is pre-detonation and heat build up and power drop off at higher rpms, and TRACTION. While at Lime Rock the instructors were teaching me to accelerate in the apex of the curves, but w/ a Roe, that might be extremely tenuous....the Paxton seems more linear in delivery and more predictable. I still would like to see what Sean Roes larger s/c will do on the Gen 3's however.
You going to the Silver State in Sept? I was intending to go in May, but I had a MoTeC unit installed in the car and it wasn't ready to run. On similar roads (closed private course, same elevation), I "unofficially" ran 194MPH, low boost, 5.5 lbs, 91, about 5,300 rpms in 5th gear before I got out of the gas, oh yeah, the top was down on the car also. I figure at 13-15 lbs of boost on 100 octane I will run somewhere north of 200.
Look forward to seeing you in Sept.
Regarding AEM and boost per gear limiting, AEM using estimated speed per gear to control bosst per gear, so if somewhere near the top of 1st you are supposed to be running 50MPH and 6 lbs of boost your boost is held there until your break traction and the tires spin up to 70MPH, the AEM then reads that you have switched gears and gives you boost for the next gear (presumably higher), a sort of double fault for traction.
Here is the video Phil. The first 2 races is Chad with his new F430. I ran Kelly Martin who has a RSI 1000hp Yellow Twin Turbo in the third run. I was able to run a 10.43 @ 139. I could not even try a holeshot with these tires.