Ok here is my, as short as I can make it, quandry. I purchased a 96 RT-10 in January, sight unseen. I was excited about finally being able to afford a Viper and bought a car that is not perfect. It has been repainted, has a Gen II hood and is missing lots of nuts and bolts here and there. I am assuming when it was reassembled it was just not done well and pieces were lost. The car tracks fine and runs good. 52,247 miles, does have a hard top, windows and has Hennessey rims. I think I got it for a fair price considering it is far from perfect. Here is my question: do I spend the money and elbow grease to get it back to where I want it or do I use it as a lesson learned, sell it, and get a car in the condition I want from jump?
96 RT-10 Quandry?
- Thread starter NVMYVPR
- Start date
V10SpeedLuvr
Enthusiast
How much $$ are you estimating to get it where you want it?
CEJ
Enthusiast
Your RT/10 looks great! Are you missing parts or fasteners? If you're just missing nuts & bolts, a trip to Ace Hardware is pretty cheap compared with buying another Viper. The advantage of this car is that you can learn a lot by working on it, and that experience will help you if you buy another Viper later on.
FastZilla
Enthusiast
I'd elbow grease the fool out of it, keep the money invested as minimal as possible - then use it as a daily driver. Since there are so many issues with the car, so long as it runs reliably, I'd drive the wheels of it. So many folks are scared to put any miles on their cars - having one that already has a lower value, mileage will not hurt the value. Enjoy it - forget the resale value, your daily driving a Viper!
If you don't already have one - buy the factory shop manual, it takes the guess work out of "how do I...". These cars are very easy to work on.
Reading my post I don't want to come off sounding crappy. My main point is that with a "perfect" car there are so many things you are scared of hurting the value that many never drive them and leave them in the garage. You car looks great & 99.99% of the folks will see no defect and not even know there is a Gen2 hood on a Gen1. I think it would be awesome to just be able to enjoy something without constantly worrying about destroying the resale because I wanted to drive my car cross country. We all preach "reliability", ease of maintenance, great value, etc. Except when it comes time to sell a car - the buyer will take the car with lower mileage "simply because" - or pop off "there's one with half the mileage for half the price" - etc.
I was looking to buy a car with 10k miles on it - then thru my research I found one with 1900 miles on it for 10k less - both full documentation, perfect, same color, etc. - Dealer with 10k car says "well you know, cars with that low mileage have belt, hose, engine issues because they have been sitting and the seals dry out, etc....blah, blah...BS, BS....
I let him go thru his anti-low mileage car spill then I asked, "what would you be saying to me if you had the 1900mi car? I bet it's the exact opposite of what you just said. Now are you going to come down $10k+ on your price or not?"
People become hypocrites when it comes down to putting their money where their mouth is.
If you don't already have one - buy the factory shop manual, it takes the guess work out of "how do I...". These cars are very easy to work on.
Reading my post I don't want to come off sounding crappy. My main point is that with a "perfect" car there are so many things you are scared of hurting the value that many never drive them and leave them in the garage. You car looks great & 99.99% of the folks will see no defect and not even know there is a Gen2 hood on a Gen1. I think it would be awesome to just be able to enjoy something without constantly worrying about destroying the resale because I wanted to drive my car cross country. We all preach "reliability", ease of maintenance, great value, etc. Except when it comes time to sell a car - the buyer will take the car with lower mileage "simply because" - or pop off "there's one with half the mileage for half the price" - etc.
I was looking to buy a car with 10k miles on it - then thru my research I found one with 1900 miles on it for 10k less - both full documentation, perfect, same color, etc. - Dealer with 10k car says "well you know, cars with that low mileage have belt, hose, engine issues because they have been sitting and the seals dry out, etc....blah, blah...BS, BS....
I let him go thru his anti-low mileage car spill then I asked, "what would you be saying to me if you had the 1900mi car? I bet it's the exact opposite of what you just said. Now are you going to come down $10k+ on your price or not?"
People become hypocrites when it comes down to putting their money where their mouth is.
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v10enomous
Enthusiast
The car looks good... Even if you do nothing it will only go up in value at this point. If it tracks good and runs and shifts good just enjoy it. Lots of guys buy super low miles perfect cars for a premium and then they're afraid to drive them so even a perfect car is not always perfect.
What is not perfect about the Viper besides the missing nuts and bolts? Things like missing body bolts under the rear bumper is not uncommon and can be purchased/replaced. What happened to the Viper that warranted the hood to be repainted? Does it have a salvage title? Accident history? Just curious what makes the car far from perfect. Besides nuts/bolts, what else is missing? Do you have pics of the missing pieces in question? Without really knowing what else is wrong with the Viper it's difficult to suggest what money to spend, etc. If it's just superficial items, nothng major like frame damage, engine issues, etc. I'd say put in some elbow grease and enjoy her.
AFL in NJ
Enthusiast
If I were You, I'd find another VCA member neaby who has a similar car, then compare the Vipers to see what is different. Make a list of whats different then contact one of our vendors to get all the little parts you need. For anything that's different, I'd take a photo of Yours vs the other Viper and then you can send that to the vendor. I know Paul Scharf, X-Vipers and PartsRack have used parts and may be able to solve your "differences" cheaply....well at least cheaper than buying a different Viper.
Regards,
Aaron
Regards,
Aaron
LifeIsGood
Enthusiast
We need to know what 'far from perfect' means? The guys/gals in this forum will be very helpful in fixing/replacing anything that you need...we just need to know what that is. 
Mopar Steve
Enthusiast
Stay away from the hardware store, they do NOT sell the correct hardware. You can get stuff that "fits" but it is wrong. The washer/head is different and the plating is not right. The wrong parts look like the whole car is put together wrong. I would rather see a car that has a fastener missing, that might have fallen out rather than see a rusty hardware store screw. There is a company called "McMaster-Carr"They sell all the right fasteners. they will cost pennies more but it makes the car RIGHT! I am sure there are other similar companies but this will help get the car sorted out right.
Keep this one, learn your car, drive and enjoy your Viper.
Good luck there are plenty of members here that are glad to help.
Keep this one, learn your car, drive and enjoy your Viper.
Good luck there are plenty of members here that are glad to help.
CEJ
Enthusiast
Mopar Steve makes a good point...nuts and bolts on the Viper will have different grades, and you need to make sure you buy the correct grade fastener (look at the ones still on the car, or on another Viper. For instance, Ace will sell many different grades of fasteners, but you need to make sure you buy the appropriate grade.
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
I have a few extra nuts and bolts and other misc. things. PM me a list.
Great info and advice guys. I do not know why the hood was changed out but it is not salvaged, clear carfax and clear VIN from the dealer. I think it looks great with that NACA vent so to me it is a win. The interior was missing many of the bolts holding everything together. The drivers seat were held down by only two bolts. The lower part of the airbox is completely missing but I can assume that is from it not being able to fit under the new hood. The entire front end is being held on by less than, as far as I can tell, 1/2 the nuts and bolts. That includes the headlights. The steering seems to be pretty loose and it does not shift in and out of the gears easy. The harder I am on it the harder it is to shift. The gears want to hang and then not engage. The dealership here in Montana not having any experience with Vipers could only tell me they think it might need a new clutch. I believe I can put a lot of work in on it before I head to Miami, FL in two months and there I can find somebody to compare my car with. I will be hitting a few of you up for info on tightening up my front end and of course to get some nuts and bolt/fastener type parts.
Craig,
Craig,
eucharistos
Enthusiast
hey NVMYVPR , dittos to this:
when you get to miami you will be near one of the best in the business, DLM, have him eyeball your car and trust what he says
(http://www.douglevinmotorsports.com/)
congrats
when you get to miami you will be near one of the best in the business, DLM, have him eyeball your car and trust what he says
(http://www.douglevinmotorsports.com/)
congrats
CEJ
Enthusiast
Engine mounts & tranny mount could be bad...search around and see if some other threads describe your shifting. The Viper is really pretty straightforward, so any competent mechanic that you trust could look at the steering/suspension. Ball joints and tie rod ends need greasing, and if they are worn that could give a wandering feel. Also, old tires can make you think you have bias-ply tires on the front as your car will follow any rut in the road. There are threads here on tire age, so take a look at those too. Have you purchased the factory service manual? eBay has them on a regular basis.
I certainly will hit up DLM. I have already been in contact with him about my NA build if I decide to keep this car. I am pretty sure I will keep it at this point and just learn a whole lot about my Viper in the next few months, get her back together and close to where I want it and then see if I want to put the money into her for the motor upgrades. It will make a good project and allow me to drive it without fear of hurting the value. I like the idea of a Viper daily driver.
v10enomous
Enthusiast
Saving a Viper that needs a little TLC is both noble and rewarding. It may seem questionable now but in 20 years people will be trying to restore GEN1's from oil stains in somebody's garage. These cars are among the most rare American made production cars ever so take that into account when you see the effort that some people put into restoring much lesser cars that were produced in much higher volumes. My car was far from perfect when I got it and it's still not perfect. I have it sorted out the way I like it now and trust me when I pulled in to get gas the other day and I was besieged by no less than 10 people taking pictures and asking questions the imperfections were the furthest thing from my mind. It's my first Viper too so that makes the car special enough to overlook a few things.
FastZilla
Enthusiast
Bolts and screws will always rattle out/fall out of f the interrior of the Gen1 - carry a stubby phillips in the glove box & just get used to it (door trim, side sill plugs, etc., etc.). The factory screws and such can be purchease for next to nothing at Fastenal & McMaster-Carr. It sounds like the front end is suffering from a poor re-install after the repaint (missing body panel hardware) - that is good news. Missing bolts from a repaint vs. missing from an accident repair. Clutch is a possibility (does it hold under power, 4th grear under full power, or is it simply engage/disengage, which could be your master/slave cylinder).
I'm not sure who is close to you in MT but Dan Craigen (DC Performance) in CA is a Gen1 phenom.
Glad you're considering keeping it for now.
VYPR BYT 94
Enthusiast
hey NVMYVPR , dittos to this:
when you get to miami you will be near one of the best in the business, DLM, have him eyeball your car and trust what he says
(http://www.douglevinmotorsports.com/)
congrats
Looks like euch made it easy for you... wait till you get it to DLM and then base your decision on his feedback. At least then you'll have an idea as to what kind of $ your looking at.
Congratz!
jdeft1
Enthusiast
Keep it fix it drive it.
For the record, in my experience, gen 1 cars do not simply drive down the road dropping nuts and bolts. Indeed there are a few issues with the sill screws loosening and dropping but that is a pretty easy fix. I agree that the re-assembly after paint is probably the problem. As for loose steering and shifting issues, well, hard to comment without a test drive and some time on the lift.
For the record, in my experience, gen 1 cars do not simply drive down the road dropping nuts and bolts. Indeed there are a few issues with the sill screws loosening and dropping but that is a pretty easy fix. I agree that the re-assembly after paint is probably the problem. As for loose steering and shifting issues, well, hard to comment without a test drive and some time on the lift.
I do have the general maintenance shop manual but I do not have the one specific to just the body. Does anybody have some photos with the front end off the car? I am trying to do this without removing the hood and at this point minus a lift. Also anybody have the headlights out loose so I can get a shot of the underside before I try and pull mine out. One if mine is extremely loose. Thanks.
Hey on another topic I am trying to get a definitive answer on if a Gen II manifold will fit a Gen I motor? I am looking at a Gen II manifold with 65mmTB's and the Gen II injectors. Easy upgrade for me if it fits and my car only has to be down a short period of time. The reason I pose the question like this is I received answers saying yes and some saying no and then others saying it should. Just want a good qualified answer before I lay out the cash. thanks.
Craig,
Craig,
jdeft1
Enthusiast
I may be able to help you out a bit if nobody has their car in pieces right now. Not sure if it's cool to scan a few tech manual pages and post... or that may be a no/no. If you pm me an email I might be able to help...
jdeft1
Enthusiast
Just looked through the body and trim book and the construction/dimensions book. Doesn't look like the tech manuals that I have show what you're looking for....
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
A general rule of thumb for exotic cars is to buy the best example you can afford. It is usually cheaper to buy the better car, than to fix up a poorer example.
Replacement parts are pretty expensive. Costs 3X to build a Viper from parts than to buy the whole car together.
Fixing up a shabby example can be great fun and rewarding project. It will be a true learning experience, and make you appreciate even more, a pristine example.
Not only is it necessary to do a cosmetic restoration, but for such a high performance machine, safety at speed should also be a top priority when deciding the parts to use.
In your case, since you already have the car, I would lay out a priority list of items to be replaced, fixed, upgraded, and check them off one at a time. Lots of parts available for these cars, but you gotta look around.
Replacement parts are pretty expensive. Costs 3X to build a Viper from parts than to buy the whole car together.
Fixing up a shabby example can be great fun and rewarding project. It will be a true learning experience, and make you appreciate even more, a pristine example.
Not only is it necessary to do a cosmetic restoration, but for such a high performance machine, safety at speed should also be a top priority when deciding the parts to use.
In your case, since you already have the car, I would lay out a priority list of items to be replaced, fixed, upgraded, and check them off one at a time. Lots of parts available for these cars, but you gotta look around.
malcoll
Enthusiast
I daily drove my 1996 RT.... black w/silver stripes... great Viper! It is a bit challenging as a daily driver but I did it for a number of years in Jacksonville Florida. I would recommend finding a three-piece trunk top... makes carrying the top with you for afternoon showers an easier deal...... I would definitely keep it.... I sold mine when I bought a 2006 SRT roadster....love the 2006, but every time I see the 1996 I drool.... (I sold mine to a good friend so I see it often)....someday I'll probably buy it back from him!
Keep it, enjoy it and learn to work on it!
Keep it, enjoy it and learn to work on it!
malcoll
Enthusiast
Check the intermediate steering shaft ..... mine loosened up at the rubber joint near the steering rack... Viper Parts of America carries them.... reasonably easy install.... you can also check the steering rack mounts first.. if those are good, have someone turn the steering wheel while you watch the steering shaft.....if it rotates in coupler the rubber insert is deteriorated and the steering shaft needs replaced.
Thanks for all the advice. I am keeping my Viper and I will be going through it and bringing it up to an acceptable level. I believe my shifting issues under load are due to the motor mounts and possible tranny mounts. I am ordering them from Woodhouse today or tomorrow. I have already found and purchaseda CB Airbox with smooth tubes, Berlanger headers and the full exhaust with cats deleted to match. Soon I will be purchasing a Gen II intake with 65mm TB's, Gen II injectors, etc. Eventually when I find some Gen I heads I will send them to GG for an econoport, that way the Viper is not down for an extended period of time. All of these upgrades will have to wait to be installed until I move to Miami in May and DLM will do all the install work. I have already started putting together a list nuts and bolts I need to tighten up my front end and headlights. I will address the steering issue at the same time that DLM does the install for the rest of my parts. I will do some kind of fuel management upgrade when I do the heads but probably not until the end of summer. Moving expenses are taking a little money out of my "upgrade" budget. Thanks again for all the advice and wisdom and I am sure I will have more questions are I make it through the car fixing or upgrading as the case may be.
jdeft1
Enthusiast
Bozeman to Miami..... Wow that's a heck of a shift! I love Montana, (been there many times backpacking and visiting) I bet you're gonna love Miami!!! Do you speak any spanish?? It helps down there.....
Cheers
Cheers
Ha, no spanish to speak of but intent on learning. I used to live in Sebring so I have spent a little time in that area. We have loved Montana and Utah during my time out here but we are looking forward to some warm weather and the beach for a change. I pretty much moved to the Northwest straight from Hawaii in 2006 so this is more like getting back to our roots.
v10enomous
Enthusiast
Glad to hear you are keeping your car. The only car in perfect condition is a car that never gets driven. So fix it up a little and drive it and then maybe fix it a little more and so on... Keep everyone updated
